If there is no personal self, what is there?

[Kellycampb]

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

If “knowing” is remembering, guessing at facts, or thinking about a thing, rather than experiencing a thing, than the question of can you “know” an apple leads me to answer “yes” in that capacity. Direct Experience or Actual Experience, seems to indicated that you must be experiencing a thing, separate from your thoughts about the thing. Is that right?

In this case, “Is there really an apple here, or only color and thought about apple”; an apple on the screen is only a visual representation - it’s known only through memory, or through representation. The sensation, the “seeing” of taking in the experience of “apple” cannot be direct because it is off a screen. So the concept of “apple” can trigger a “knowing” that can cause physical senstations to be created in the body, and thereby offer a “seeing” or DE. But as it stands it’s an experience of representation. Although, maybe “seeing” the red on the screen, imagining the dew on the apple, and being triggered to pull up a sent, may all be experiences that are equivalent to what the body produces with a physical apple.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

If “knowing” is remembering, guessing at facts, or thinking about a thing, rather than experiencing a thing, than the question of can you “know” an apple leads me to answer “yes” in that capacity. Direct Experience or Actual Experience, seems to indicated that you must be experiencing a thing, separate from your thoughts about the thing. Is that right?

“Known” here is meant as identified in DE.
Remember DE is not experiencing a “thing” but the actual experience of the senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and/or feeling), without the content of thought. Thought’s presence is DE but not their content (what they are about). Is that clear??

In this case, “Is there really an apple here, or only color and thought about apple”; an apple on the screen is only a visual representation - it’s known only through memory, or through representation. The sensation, the “seeing” of taking in the experience of “apple” cannot be direct because it is off a screen. So the concept of “apple” can trigger a “knowing” that can cause physical senstations to be created in the body, and thereby offer a “seeing” or DE. But as it stands it’s an experience of representation. Although, maybe “seeing” the red on the screen, imagining the dew on the apple, and being triggered to pull up a sent, may all be experiences that are equivalent to what the body produces with a physical apple.

I gave you the option to do it with a real apple or the image. That is why I asked you only about seeing the apple (vs tasting, smelling, and feeling – no hearing here). Does it matter if it is an image or “real” apple when it comes to seeing? Don’t you see colours or shape in both? Is there a difference without thought content (the story about the colours - if they are the colours of a real apple or a picture)? If I ask you what you see in the picture is your answer not going to be an "apple"?
Please repeat then the exercise with a real apple or any other object and answer the question:

However, is 'a physical apple' (‘object’) actually known/experienced? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really a ‘physical apple’ (‘object’) here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’ (‘object’)? Can a ‘physical apple’ (‘object’) be found in actual experience?
If you are performing the exercise with a real/physical apple you can add sensation (when touched), smell (when smelled) and taste (when tasted)... What is the “dew of a real apple” in DE? How is “it” experienced through the senses?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

[Kellycampb]

Known” here is meant as identified in DE.
Remember DE is not experiencing a “thing” but the actual experience of the senses

I need to reread this several times and sit with what you wrote today. For some reason I’m having a hard time keeping the definitions clear. I’m going to meditate on this and respond more fully.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

I need to reread this several times and sit with what you wrote today. For some reason I’m having a hard time keeping the definitions clear. I’m going to meditate on this and respond more fully.

I think you might be overthinking this. Looking is simple :). It is noticing/experiencing what is there - what you see, hear, smell, taste, and feel (sensations). And by "what" I mean the actual experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling. Like in eating a piece of chocolate, the actual experience is not just "something" in your mouth - there is an explosion of flavours, creaminess, texture, warmth, etc. - there is so much more happening there than just "chocolate in my mouth". The "chocolate in my mouth" is added to actual experience through thinking about the experience
Ok, let’s use your mediation for something else…
I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
Let’s say that you are hearing ‘birds chirping’
Great! Now sit quietly and listen to the sound for a minute of two and as you listen, I would like for you to answer the following questions by looking at what you direct actual experience is and not with an intellectual answer.

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the ‘birds chirping’?

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is ‘birds chirping’, or is it thought that suggests it?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly
Are we still doing this??
Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the ‘birds chirping’?

Without through, i "know" the sound as bird chirping because i recognize it as an experience I've had before. There's a memory of this experience innumerable times over innumerable year. in some way, it's a pattern or a reflex to experience the bird.

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is ‘birds chirping’, or is it thought that suggests it?

It's the thought! Unless, as my mind delivers to me, unless there is some information between souls that's communicated beyond thought, like an energetic signature, printing a being onto another without thought or knowledge and only through the molecules we share or the air we breathe.

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?

It's actual experience of sound. Its a ringing in the memory of that sound even past its end. It's initial nots of a cry and a calling quality that seems to pierce through the air. It's the expectation of the next one like a fingerprint left or shadow, and the experience of the new tone and shifting as it comes and goes.

I wanted to be sure I understood the whole exercise and that I was able to sit with the past exercise about the apple. My mind can get caught on "getting it right" or on exact directions that need to be thin sliced in order to gotten "right" in order to proceed. I needed to meditate and sit with the last two instructions to allow my mind to filter through the mess process and arrive at something that didn't feel jumbled. I wonder if it was trying to prevent me from moving forward because in some ways it was extraordinarily difficult to conceptualize and hold steady. Like the thoughts had a dizzying movement to itself. Hard to pin down and nauseating to sit with. I think I moved through it but wow!

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

Without through, i "know" the sound as bird chirping because i recognize it as an experience I've had before. There's a memory of this experience innumerable times over innumerable year. in some way, it's a pattern or a reflex to experience the bird.

I see you used my example. Did you listen to actual birds or you answered from memory/knowledge? The point of this inquiry is to disregard “knowledge” and really see what else is there…
Anyway memory is just more thought right? And the task was to listen to the actual sound while ignoring thoughts. So if you disregard thoughts/memories, how is it known that the sound heard is ‘birds chirping’? Close your eyes in case you can see the birds. Are there any actual “birds” in the sound?

If we go back to the apple example
What you hopefully see in DE - when looking at an apple - is a colour and a thought describing it (“apple”). The same description/label (“apple”) is also used for other senses like specific taste, smell, and sensations (texture), (there’s no hearing with this label) that in the past have appeared together with this seeing in one combination or another. But do you experience the apple or taste, smell, colour, sensation (no sound here)?
How can you be sure that a material object “apple” exists from DE point of view – you can only experience the colour, smell, taste, and sensation and you ASSUME that an object “apple” exists. Remember, here we are not taking anything for granted, we are testing all of these previously made assumptions, that have been accepted as truths. What makes you 100 % sure in your assumption that this is true if you have to rely ONLY on the 5 senses? Is it only because they have appeared together in the past? Have a LOOK for yourself.

Unless, as my mind delivers to me, unless there is some information between souls that's communicated beyond thought, like an energetic signature, printing a being onto another without thought or knowledge and only through the molecules we share or the air we breathe.

We are not interested in theories – be it scientific or spiritual, we are only interested what can be experienced with the 5 senses - what you can see, hear, smell, taste, and /or hear. Is that clear??

It's actual experience of sound. Its a ringing in the memory of that sound even past its end. It's initial nots of a cry and a calling quality that seems to pierce through the air. It's the expectation of the next one like a fingerprint left or shadow, and the experience of the new tone and shifting as it comes and goes.

These are all description (thought content) and not DE. The actual experience is just pure sound. Do you see how the labels “pierce”, “air, “cry” etc create a story when there is only/just sound/hearing?
In 'hearing' can anything be found (e.g. a bird) other than ‘the heard' (sound)? In seeing can anything be found other than the seen (colour)?

Look at the screen where you are reading this. Is the screen outside of seeing of it? Where is the line which shows where the seeing ends and the screen begins? OR the "screen" is just a pattern of colour in seeing? Look back from where the seeing is coming. Is there a seer there?
Seeing is like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of objects is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing/colour. Can you see that?

Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

Did you listen to actual birds or you answered from memory/knowledge?

Yes, there were birds singing outside my window when I didn’t the exercise.

Anyway memory is just more thought right?

Yes

So if you disregard thoughts/memories, how is it known that the sound heard is ‘birds chirping’?

You can’t know. Or, it isn’t. “Birds” is jus an idea we’ve assigned to to a series of experiences, wether that be through sound, visual cues, feel, or smell.

How can you be sure that a material object “apple” exists from DE point of view

I can see with this prompt that the experience of a thing is far more real than the brains problem solving ability to put a puzzle together. That concept is actually based on a series of assumptions and logical leaps. In DE the idea of the thing is let go of, in many ways because you can’t trust the minds creation, and you are left only with the fundamental fats of experience. Ie, in the apple example, the smell, the color, the texture, separate from the concept of “apple”. That “apple” is a label we’ve attached to an experience to keep us safe from that experience changing and in many ways keeping us separate from the experience itself. A shorthand meant to keep us moving in life, but which can also erase the presence and uniqueness of each… experience.

 

we are only interested what can be experienced with the 5 senses, Is that clear??

It’s becoming more so. But, I’m watching myself toggle back and forth trying to snap into a new way of seeing.

Do you see how the labels “pierce”, “air, “cry” etc create a story when there is only/just sound/hearing?
In 'hearing' can anything be found (e.g. a bird) other than ‘the heard' (sound)? In seeing can anything be found other than the seen (colour)?

Yes, I can see that. No, no bird can be found in sound, just as no apple can be found in seeing. Just pure sound and pure color or texture.

 

Is the screen outside of seeing of it? Where is the line which shows where the seeing ends and the screen begins? OR the "screen" is just a pattern of colour in seeing? 

The screen seems to be a pattern of colors, separate from any other identifiable experience. It seems that experience changes with touch, although I’m suspicious of that. Touch is just another layer of expense. Is the point of this to put as much space and distance between the active experiencing of a thing and the moment in which the mind labels it a noun? I’m struggling a bit with this and would like to go further. I can feel my mind resisting.

Is there a seer there?

I know the correct answer is no. Where I am now, I don’t feel that answer yet, as in I haven’t come to it on my own understanding or experience. It’s just an answer I’ve heard delivered as a solution in the past. Can you help me get here?

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing/colour. Can you see that?

I can go so far as to *conceptualize* that but my mind is holing on very tightly. I have a theory that if I stare at this image long enough, I might actually be able to allow the shapes, loaded with meaning, to melt away into shapes and color and loose their concepts. This one in particular very charged. I’m guessing that’s the path we are on with this inquiry.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

Very good!! I can see you are starting to “get it” :)

You can’t know. Or, it isn’t. “Birds” is jus an idea we’ve assigned to to a series of experiences, whether that be through sound, visual cues, feel, or smell.

Awesome looking!

That “apple” is a label we’ve attached to an experience to keep us safe from that experience changing and in many ways keeping us separate from the experience itself. A shorthand meant to keep us moving in life, but which can also erase the presence and uniqueness of each… experience.

Yes! The label is conditioned description, but can a thought think, plan and do stuff (e.g. to keep “us” from experience)?

Is the point of this to put as much space and distance between the active experiencing of a thing and the moment in which the mind labels it a noun? I’m struggling a bit with this and would like to go further. I can feel my mind resisting.

The point of this inquiry is to see what reality looks like, to see all the assumptions that we have accumulated, and mainly to see if there really is a self, an I, Kelly (in this case). Are we OK with this? It’s challenging to see that some (if not all) of these beliefs have nothing to do with reality, hence the resistance. Well, at the end of the day resistance is a thought and a sensation. Sensations are there to be experienced, but the content of thoughts (where suffering is) is optional. But we’ll get there :)

I know the correct answer is no. Where I am now, I don’t feel that answer yet, as in I haven’t come to it on my own understanding or experience. It’s just an answer I’ve heard delivered as a solution in the past. Can you help me get here?

Thank you for your honesty! Don’t worry of course I’ll guide you through that :)

I can go so far as to *conceptualize* that but my mind is holing on very tightly. I have a theory that if I stare at this image long enough, I might actually be able to allow the shapes, loaded with meaning, to melt away into shapes and color and loose their concepts. This one in particular very charged. I’m guessing that’s the path we are on with this inquiry.

Now that you grasped the DE labels, the description of daily activities exercise could be very useful to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and to make a habit of looking.
You can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above (labels of activities, simply = senses experienced). Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Once you get this going we can move on with the inquiry.
Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

can a thought think, plan and do stuff (e.g. to keep “us” from experience

No. A though exists in the same way that color or a sound exists. As an experience that only has meaning when the mind attaches itself to it.

The point of this inquiry is to see what reality looks like, to see all the assumptions that we have accumulated, and mainly to see if there really is a self, an I, Kelly (in this case). Are we OK with this?

Yes :)

daily activities exercise 

Thought about taking a hike, simply = thought (thinking)
Putting on boots, simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing the forest, simply = image / color (seeing)
Hearing dog run over leaves, simply = sound (hearing)
Feeling the cold on my fingers, simply = sensation (feeling)
Thought about going back, simply = thought (thinking)

Like this?

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

Thought about taking a hike, simply = thought (thinking)
Putting on boots, simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing the forest, simply = image / color (seeing)
Hearing dog run over leaves, simply = sound (hearing)
Feeling the cold on my fingers, simply = sensation (feeling)
Thought about going back, simply = thought (thinking)

Like this?

Perfect! Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit. So keep on doing this exercise and if you want you can share a couple just to keep the momentum going
How does it feel to see what actually is?

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It doesn’t feel any way in particular. It doesn’t feel, actually. It just.. is.

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

Yes, it’s an ego version of “me”… a character that even plays at “recognizing” and working with the thought. But Beneath that… there’s something more cellular that observes, silently.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No, the thinking seems to be like the weather.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Yes, there is control over output and input. They’re muscle memory, with the brain as an overused muscle.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Yes

s there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

What you put in, or the way you direct them, yes. But they’re like tools. They’re not the purpose or even indicators of purpose, they’re the byproduct.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance,...

Seems to be a pattern organizing mechanism. But, it’s not “real”. Such a below par word for what I mean.

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Asking if thoughts are true doesn’t live inside the same world as what thoughts are or what they do. They’re so sense of truth or lie. They simply exist as frequencies and patters, they ping off other similarly charged patterns, they can be directed, they can be changed, they can entirely disappear. They aren’t a noun.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

It doesn’t feel any way in particular. It doesn’t feel, actually. It just.. is.

Yes!! :)

Yes, it’s an ego version of “me”… a character that even plays at “recognizing” and working with the thought. But Beneath that… there’s something more cellular that observes, silently.

Please repeat the exercise and answer the questions from actual experience (AE) rather than give an intellectual/"fairy tales" answer. Actual (direct) experience is simply sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought.
All you have at your disposal is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling and thinking. So please describe with your senses this “ego version of “me”… a character that even plays at “recognizing” and working with the thought”?! Also describe this “something more cellular that observes, silently”?! Is there a colour, smell, taste, sensation, or sound, that can be observed when it comes to this entity? If not then it is a thought content, right? It’s time to see all these assumptions for what they are!

Yes, there is control over output and input. They’re muscle memory, with the brain as an overused muscle.

Then why are you choosing to have negative and painful thoughts at all? Why not only happy thoughts?? You must be an extremely happy person, having only happy thoughts and no unpleasant one! I wonder why you are here then?
When you say that you can choose not to have unpleasant thoughts, what happen to them, do they never come back? Can you choose not to think of a pink elephant? For how long? Never again? If I ask you in 5 min again would you not think of one? Do you see where I’m going with this?

What you put in, or the way you direct them, yes. But they’re like tools. They’re not the purpose or even indicators of purpose, they’re the byproduct.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? (You skipped this question!!!)
How exactly are you doing this? Please describe the mechanics of how exactly you are putting in, or directing thoughts (of course observed in DE). Where do you go to retrieve the thought, where exactly is it stored? Please provide a description of this store house! I don’t want to hear scientific stories or any other, I want to hear a description of your observations! How then do you bring the thought from the container to the front in order to become aware of it?
Did you have anything to do with creating a thought, or it simply appeared?

Here is an example that you could work with:

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

And if you answer something like:

They’re muscle memory, with the brain as an overused muscle.

First of all what is a “brain” in DE? How is it observed? Can you provide a description of your brain without the mental images (thoughts) that appear? Do you clearly see, hear, smell, taste or feel this “brain”?
Second, to become a “muscle memory” they must have appeared at some point for the first time…So how did any thought appear for the first time by choice?
We’ll explore time and memories later…

Asking if thoughts are true doesn’t live inside the same world as what thoughts are or what they do. They’re so sense of truth or lie. They simply exist as frequencies and patters, they ping off other similarly charged patterns, they can be directed, they can be changed, they can entirely disappear.

There is a lot of good observation here. Yes, thoughts could be said that are patterns but are they directed and changed by anyone (what??) or are they self-organised?

They aren’t a noun.

Awesome observation! Yes there are no “solid” thoughts – it’s more like a flux (verb) – thinking. So are there any “thoughts then without the thought content or just thinking as an experience?

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

You skipped the answer of this…

There are a lot of unanswered questions here:

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration!

NB!!! Please! Please do not answer in bulk or skip questions. These questions are designed not to assess your knowledge of how things are, but they are pointers at where to look. Obviously, your knowledge is the problem here, so that is why we are looking, right?? Each of these questions points to a specific subtlety, so please look NOW and do not answer from memory!

[Kellycampb]

I’ve tried to do this response three times now. And, I’m not having much success.

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

Thought is the same “anyone” as the observer of the thought.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

I’m not sure. It feels the same.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Sometimes. That thought can be influenced by other thoughts. Or sensations in the body.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Yes, but with using more thoughts.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

At times, I do have that control.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Same answer here. Although I’m aware you didn’t like this answer before.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I’m not clear on what you need from me here. It feels obvious that the answer is yes. But, again, you didn’t like that response. Maybe you can clarify?

Actual (direct) experience is simply sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought.

I don’t see how you want me to do that exercise. I’m missing something with this new direction. I thought you wanted me to answer the questions. Is that not the case?

So please describe with your senses this “ego version of “me”… a character that even plays at “recognizing” and working with the thought”?! Also describe this “something more cellular that observes, silently”?! Is there a colour, smell, taste, sensation, or sound, that can be observed when it comes to this entity? If not then it is a thought content, right?

Yes, it is a thought content. But, again I don’t think I understand. I’ll need you to slow this down for me.

Then why are you choosing to have negative and painful thoughts at all? Why not only happy thoughts??

Patterns. The brain creates patterned thoughts. You can rework the brain by retraining it. I’ve had periods of my life where I’ve done that. But, entropy changes that. Again, I’m missing something in where you’re trying to lead me.

 wonder why you are here then? When you say that you can choose not to have unpleasant thoughts, what happen to them, do they never come back? Can you choose not to think of a pink elephant? For how long? Never again? If I ask you in 5 min again would you not think of one? Do you see where I’m going with this?

Yes, I can see you’re pointing out that I’m wrong on an going larger scale. But again, I don’t know how to think about what you’re saying.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

No. Or seemingly not.

How exactly are you doing this? Please describe the mechanics of how exactly you are putting in, or directing thoughts 

I don’t know. My mind is blank with this prompt.

Where do you go to retrieve the thought, where exactly is it stored? Please provide a description of this store house!

There is no place. The brain simply provides a thought. I don’t know how to describe a description in DE…

How then do you bring the thought from the container to the front in order to become aware of it?

This is not an action I’m in control of.

Did you have anything to do with creating a thought, or it simply appeared?

I feel like this question is a trap. I know I’m given a thought that there are lots of things that tie into the thoughts we receive. But I also know it simply occurred. So, again, I don’t know what to say here.

Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? 

I don’t know.

First of all what is a “brain” in DE?

A thought.

How is it observed?

A thought.

Can you provide a description of your brain without the mental images (thoughts) that appear?

No.

Do you clearly see, hear, smell, taste or feel this “brain”?

No.

So how did any thought appear for the first time by choice?

I’m guessing this is leading to a realization that there was no choice. That they simply appear with no meaning or weight.

but are they directed and changed by anyone (what??) or are they self-organised?

They seem to be self organized.

So are there any “thoughts then without the thought content or just thinking as an experience?

Just the experience.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

I… don’t know.

5 thoughts in the order they appear:

1. I’m frustrated by this line of questioning.
2. I’m embarrassed I can’t seem to make progress here.
3. This person probably feels very upset with me.
4. That’s a dumb thing to get caught up about.
5. That’s always my problem.

Could you predict the order of their appearance?

I think in the way you mean, no.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? 

No, not directly.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No.

How long does that last?

It doesn't.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly
First of all you are doing great! There is no right or wrong, there is only what is seen (what is true) at the moment. So thank you for your openness and willingness to explore your assumptions!
Second, there is absolutely no frustration here – this conditioning (your world) was not built in a day so it can’t be deconstructed in day either :)
Like anything, it takes looking over and over to see if what is being pointed to can be seen. That is what is good about being guided. You aren’t being asked to believe anything…you are asked to look and see it for yourself. This investigation will turn you upside down as it goes against everything you think you know and believe. Resistance and frustration ("on your end") are quite normal at this “stage”
...

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

I’m not sure. It feels the same.

Why do you expect that it to feel different? You are just observing and reporting what you are seeing. We are not changing experience (we can’t anyway), we are just checking if the description of thoughts really reflects the DE. Clear??
...
Your answers present a mixed picture (looking and guessing) and I presume that you did answer them on the go (not doing all and then writing your observations). There are a lot of contradictions because of that.
Like these:

Patterns. The brain creates patterned thoughts. You can rework the brain by retraining it. I’ve had periods of my life where I’ve done that. But, entropy changes that. Again, I’m missing something in where you’re trying to lead me.

First of all what is a “brain” in DE?

A thought.

Thought is the same “anyone” as the observer of the thought

How then do you bring the thought from the container to the front in order to become aware of it?

This is not an action I’m in control of.

So can a thought (i.e. “brain”) think and create patterns? Can you train a thought to do things? Can thoughts do anything but “describe” what is happening?
And what is this that trains the thoughts if there is no thinker and no “brain” (just more thoughts)? How do you train them exactly (no assumptions please, just look and report!)? You cannot access the thoughts but you can choose and train them to come in a certain order and with certain content (happy/unhappy)?

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Yes, but with using more thoughts.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

At times, I do have that control.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Same answer here. Although I’m aware you didn’t like this answer before.

Why don’t you have control all the time? Why chose to have negative thoughts at all if it is in your control? If happiness is in your control why don’t you just think happy thoughts?
OR simply there happy thoughts, and there are unhappy thoughts? And there are also thoughts saying how you are choosing to have these thoughts? LOOK! How are you choosing to have any kind of thoughts exactly? If you’ve always done it you should know how exactly you are doing it. Don’t just drop your assumptions here! LOOK in DE! See, feel, smell, taste, hear!

If different thoughts appear to replace others, then how is it your doing? It is just how thoughts are appearing, is it not? Is it possible that thoughts are just appearing in that “sequence” randomly and only another thought says that there is a sequence?

A thought is much like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall. Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything whatsoever. It just appears. And that is all there is to thought

Example of thoughts arising…

1. I’m frustrated by this line of questioning.
2. I’m embarrassed I can’t seem to make progress here.
3. This person probably feels very upset with me.
4. That’s a dumb thing to get caught up about.
5. That’s always my problem.

…
27. I have been thinking about progress

Now when you look at this, do you find thought 27 has any knowledge of any of the other thoughts, let alone them all? It seems that way, but when we look closely, what is found?

I’m guessing this is leading to a realization that there was no choice. That they simply appear with no meaning or weight.

Stop guessing!!! Start looking! Guesswork is the domain of thoughts, you will not find answers there. Only plain looking reveals what is here and what is not.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

No. Or seemingly not.

“Seems like”/”feels like” = thought content
Nothing in DE is seems like – it’s either here or not. So look again! Is there a traffic cop directing thoughts or not? Or thought stream appears on its own?

You are doing great!!! :)

Love
Rali