If there is no personal self, what is there?

[Kellycampb]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand this to mean the personality is a series of survival tactics the ego utilizes to keep itself safe and achieve its goals in the world. underneath that reality exists the "viewer" who's primary energetic existence is tied to the greater source of energetic being-ness of existence. A thread from and within a fundamental energetic source.

What are you looking for at LU? Greater peace and understanding so as to liberate what is authentically moving through me and produce the most good in the world. To create distance between my human pain and anxieties caused by the ego and my deep attachment to it, meaning, and ambition. A sense of freedom and joy.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect there will be a period of self inquiry and from that place my soul will make a case to itself around the non-existance of the things which feel fundamental to being identified as myself. At which point, I expect there will be a kind of crack in logic that can't be unseen, and which should create a separateness for a new understanding of reality to take hold.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? My experience is life long. I've been seeking for as long as I can remember. The last 6 years I have had a heavy meditation practice, and the last year along side a massive shift in my life inside of partnership, my meditation practice has become more intense. I have had periods of deep peace, separateness, and profound universal love, but they've gone away with stresses, and my anxiety and pain is reaching a breaking point.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi Kellycampb
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great

Hello Rali, thank you for your introduction. I am in east coat time zone. Looking forward to getting started!

[poppyseed]

Hi Kellycampb
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I am in east coat time zone.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

Looking forward to getting started!

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
I expect I’ll experience a separation, a kind of buffer, between taking my life so personally and the experiences around me.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
When I realize there’s no separation of self, I expect I’ll experience a greater sense of one-ness, an ease in releasing unnecessary pain or stress, and ideally a greater sene of universal love and wholeness.

3. What do you want not to happen?
I do not want to loose all emotion, or disconnect entirely from a human experience.

4. What are you hoping for?
I’m hoping for a deep sense of truth and honesty separate from the dresses and anxieties which feel very real. I’m hoping to experience more acceptance of what Is.

5. What is missing?
Nothing

[poppyseed]

Hi Kellycampb

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I do not want to lose all emotion, or disconnect entirely from a human experience.

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

How can an illusion have experiences/lack of them? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.


Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

Thank you for your honesty!

It’s funny because I did read the FAQ’s and know that the experience’s likely to have will be totally subtle but I’ve decided to be honest about the less than beautiful version of myself that is knowingly walking into a process, and yet holding, consciously, unrealistic expectations in the very far corner of my mind. For example, I’m aware that my mind would like this to solve all heartbreak, would like also very much to be experiencing a deep sense of inner peace and a flooding of “god’s love”, and, of course that the clarity will bring me closer to my truest and highest purpose in the lifetime.. thereby making me a human I love, respect, and admire… how’s that for unrealistic expectations!? Haha. I say all this know, that’s not the case. And it won’t be the case. But, if we are airing out honesties… that’s all in there. And the truth is, I’m fine with a process that in fact isn’t that at all, and that might just be a drop in a bucket of further seeing inside this physical experience. That, too, I’m game for.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly
(Can I just call you that for simplicity?)

I’ve decided to be honest about the less than beautiful version of myself that is knowingly walking into a process, and yet holding, consciously, unrealistic expectations in the very far corner of my mind. For example, I’m aware that my mind would like this to solve all heartbreak, would like also very much to be experiencing a deep sense of inner peace and a flooding of “god’s love”, and, of course that the clarity will bring me closer to my truest and highest purpose in the lifetime.. thereby making me a human I love, respect, and admire… how’s that for unrealistic expectations!? Haha.

Yeah we all had these, don’t worry! And that is why we ask you to put all the expectations in the open and realise that you have these. However, expectations are one of the most frequent blocks to seeing what ‘reality’ actually is. We can blame Guru stories and the attraction to drama in our society for focusing on stories of the initial epiphany that people have as they wake up. In the age of abundance of information, what attracts attention is the “wow” factor. Anything else goes almost unnoticed. This puts into our head, the idea of “bells and whistles”, “all problems solved”. We expect big drama to confirm that a significant shift has occurred. For most people the realization comes slowly, quietly, and unnoticeably. Remember, truth has always been here :)

Having a beginner’s mind - having an attitude of openness, eagerness, and lack of preconceptions during the inquiry – could be very “productive”. That is why we also encourage people to drop all exposure to teachings, or any other practice with the exception of just plain meditation. We want you to find out for yourself what is here and what is not. That is why it is a guiding process, not teaching or learning. During the inquiry you will find an answer to all of these questions (hopefully), even if the answer is not what you expected ;). Please, let me know if you are ok with all that so we can continue.

On that note, let me please remind you that we agreed on a predominantly daily conversation. I’m still waiting your answers to my questions. If you see a “?” you answer it. I usually put my questions in blue so they stand out, but if you see any “?” you should answer it anyway.

Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

Yeah we all had these, don’t worry!

I apologize for the delay. I was in the woods this weekend and didn't realize i wouldn't have any wifi or service. But, to get back to your question - yes, I am okay with this and I appreciate the reminder to keep a beginners attitude. Thank you, :)

[poppyseed]

Hi kelly

It's good to have you back :)
Please go back to the post from the 25th of jan and answer all questions in blue!
Looking forward to your answer so we can continue

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hin Kelly
Are we still doing this???

Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? 

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

I’m not sure I understand this question. I think there might be a fear that I’ll evade the point of life and living, and that way, it might be “zombie” or “vegetable” like

How can an illusion have experiences/lack of them? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

So, if I take the Santa question, the answer is yes, Christmas changed dramatically when the idea of Santa was dismantled. They magic and joy changed significantly and the spirit of Christmas was much more a human experience that we had to conjure rather than an experience we were all caught up in. A place that we could allow to over take us. In fact, now there is a real challenge around Christmas time to conjure a sense or a feeling that doesn’t seem to permeate on its own. There is a fear for sure. A fear as things fall away that the emptiness and nothingness will be all that’s left. And, to be honest, I do feel a lot of that. I feel a sense of emptiness and a lack of passion or excitement or engagement as these things fall away.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

It feels like a witnesser. But it also feels like a stuck energy. That it wants to express and experience and find joy but that the human part of me steps in to try to control it’s expression or its engagement, and the watcher doesn’t have opinions or drives and so exists only as a feeling of potential. It brings up feelings of anxiety or fear that this life will be wasted. And it hurts in my throat, tonight.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

A couple of technical issues first…
1. I would really appreciate more regular conversation. In my experience gaps are like these do not work. The inquiry demands certain intensity and gaps are not productive at all (to say the least). The inquiry becomes a wasted opportunity. So before we continue I want a confirmation from your side that you will try to stick to daily conversation!
2. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers. Otherwise it is a mess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Now back to your reply…

I’m not sure I understand this question. I think there might be a fear that I’ll evade the point of life and living, and that way, it might be “zombie” or “vegetable” like

If ”I” is an illusion aka non-existent and "I" has never existed, how can a non-existing thing “evade life and living” or make any other important or non-important decisions? There has always been only living. It’s not like we are killing anything here – the point of this inquiry is to see that there is nothing like an “I”/”Kelly”/ a person here and there never was. Are you doing anything in order to be? Are you doing the living? How exactly? So how can you avoid it then? If you are talking about the story ABOUT life, that is a different story (please excuse the pun). We’ll see that thought content has nothing to do with what is actually here. But we’ll come back to that again when you actually learn how to look at what is actually here.

There is a fear for sure. A fear as things fall away that the emptiness and nothingness will be all that’s left. And, to be honest, I do feel a lot of that. I feel a sense of emptiness and a lack of passion or excitement or engagement as these things fall away.

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your “humanity” (emotions). So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

“Emptiness” is a Buddhist concept. Emptiness does not mean “nothingness” just empty of self and concepts. Was there nothingness until the beginning of the inquiry? So why should there be after? Please watch this short video explaining what “emptiness” is supposed to mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYqaWmc ... 4&index=41
and this article:
https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/

Please let me know if there is still fear before we continue
Love
Rali

[Kellycampb]

Please let me know if there is still fear before we continue

I read this this morning, and as the day moved forward, I felt the ego internally giving immense resistance to release. Bt the end of the day here, no, there is no fear. What you said about survival and the sweet protective quality that this emotion brings up in a person, is actually quite understandable and generous. I love imagining something in me kicking in to try to protect the “me,” and allow it enough comfort and “emptiness” as was referred to in the article you sent, that it can release.

A couple of technical issues first…

I understand, and I apologize. There’s no way for me to explain this than to simply say my brain shut down and I forgot entirely a few days ago that this existed. That shouldn’t be a problem any more and I apologize.

If ”I” is an illusion aka non-existent and "I" has never existed, how can a non-existing thing “evade life and living” or

This question you posed: am I doing anything in order to “be”… you’re right! I am doing many “things” or thinking of many “things” in order to further my narrative, to express a being out into the world, but to “be”… to simply exist, it is as true and plane as the sky. Or the lake. Or food. The article you sent and the video were both highly informative. I felt each of their frequency fully when I opened them and the buzz off of them was intense! And pleasant.

Was there nothingness until the beginning of the inquiry? So why should there be after?

Yes, in the way that that nothingness is a shared everythingness. And from that, layers of thoughts and concepts created a world and a “reality”, but I’m seeing, or understanding, that they’re as obtuse as the weather or the wind. That the ways in which we engage may be the ways in which we are playing with the chemical and molecular experience of “living.”

[poppyseed]

Hi Kelly

But the end of the day here, no, there is no fear.

Great!

Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are - knowing.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are - seeing
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali