See the sought

[tia22]

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

I’m going to try to keep my observation simple, as it is my mind and thought that wants to make experiences more complex.

I look at an apple and the mind says “apple” and it even goes so far as to label the simple color “red” “that’s a red apple”. Through this exercise I see that thought tries to overlay everything. It wants to “know” everything!! When observing what is “out there” without the labels it seems that there is not anything to differentiate one object from another. Apparently mind serves to separate and differentiate. Though, as I am looking now, there do seem to be physical borders/edges to create the sense of separate objects. Is this the mind’s doing?!

[Bluejay]

This was good stuff :)

Though, as I am looking now, there do seem to be physical borders/edges to create the sense of separate objects. Is this the mind’s doing?!

Have a look.

When you see a border, do you see a border, or a different color?

[tia22]

When you see a border, do you see a border, or a different color?

Oh my- it is the mind insisting that they are “separate” under the guise of this person knowing that they are separate- it has never been questioned because it was known with certainty 🤦‍♀️ I will investigate this and get back to you :)

[Bluejay]

Yes, exactly :)

[tia22]

Hi, Henri

I have been working with sense of sight and at times I can notice what you are pointing to. The mind quickly comes on line and tries to label, I see this is just what mind does in innocence. I have been experiencing some internal perceptual shifts the last couple of days, and do feel drawn to investigating the sense gates more. Sight feels a bit conceptual for me right now. Do you have any pointers for working with the sense of hearing/sound? I hope it’s alright for me to attempt to direct the pointings according to my internal promptings

[Bluejay]

Do you have any pointers for working with the sense of hearing/sound? I hope it’s alright for me to attempt to direct the pointings according to my internal promptings

That's perfect. Inquiry is often most fruitful when following what you are interested in exploring.

Here's is one on sound:

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside.

Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?

3) An 'I'? A 'body'? A 'person'? A brain? A pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?

What do you find?

Can an inherent hearer be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

[tia22]

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

No. Nothing. In the field of hearing/sound there seems to be only the heard. 😮

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?

I can not find anything that is “doing” that.

3) An 'I'? A 'body'? A 'person'? A brain? A pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?

Conceptually, it seems that the ears are doing the hearing, but if I can’t find anything/anyone that is “processing” sound, there is no evidence of the ears doing the hearing. This is putting my understanding of my reality a little on tilt. I’m gonna need to look into this more.

What do you find?

There is nothing to be found except for “the heard”

Can an inherent hearer be found?

No.

Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

A hearer or something hearing does appear to be a mind-made concept. The mind is desperately trying to figure this out, so there is a lot of confusion going on here right now. I am going to continue to investigate this.

Would you mind sharing your experience of this discovery? My mind is literally on tilt and is chasing itself in circles trying to figure this out. I feel bad for it. It will never understand in the way it wants to.

[Bluejay]

Conceptually, it seems that the ears are doing the hearing, but if I can’t find anything/anyone that is “processing” sound, there is no evidence of the ears doing the hearing. This is putting my understanding of my reality a little on tilt. I’m gonna need to look into this more.

Feel free to explore!

A hearer or something hearing does appear to be a mind-made concept. The mind is desperately trying to figure this out, so there is a lot of confusion going on here right now. I am going to continue to investigate this.

No, the mind cannot get this, because it is always only reflecting what is in the senses or in other thoughts. It is always an overlay. If the mind is scrambling, see if there's a feeling in the body wanting to be felt, and rest into it.

Would you mind sharing your experience of this discovery? My mind is literally on tilt and is chasing itself in circles trying to figure this out. I feel bad for it. It will never understand in the way it wants to.

I don't have much to say, except that music suddenly became amazing to listen to. Listening to someone singing feels like 'I'm' singing.

Just let yourself sink into it and notice the enjoyable aspects of this.

[tia22]

Hi, Henri!

Still attempting to feel into and investigate my direct experience. Nothing to report as of yet. The mind is a habitual machine and has a hard time letting go of what it “knows”. Will continue to feel in and report back if/as things are seen

[Bluejay]

Usually what happens is old beliefs, thoughts, and habits come up for review and they are seen through, so they drop away faster and faster. Is that what's happening?

So don't expect things to just disappear instantly.

[tia22]

Usually what happens is old beliefs, thoughts, and habits come up for review and they are seen through, so they drop away faster and faster. Is that what's happening?

That does seem to be what is happening. And I am hesitant to say it, but I feel like something may have shifted last week. I feel different, but also the same. My internal experience is quite different than it was. Well, it kind of goes back and forth. I can try to explain this a bit more, if that is something that interests you?

[Bluejay]

Well, it kind of goes back and forth. I can try to explain this a bit more, if that is something that interests you?

Absolutely. Feel free to share. Writing about it can help clarify it as well.

And we can continue exploring pointers when you feel ready as that will help clarify and deepen.

The shift can be quite subtle for some people. For me it was just standing in the kitchen and realizing "Oh, there's just this (the senses)."

[tia22]

The shift can be quite subtle for some people. For me it was just standing in the kitchen and realizing "Oh, there's just this (the senses)."

I’ll try to keep this succinct..

If this was a shift, it was definitely quite subtle. Much like your experience, it was just a realization that didn’t feel purely cognitive. I was watching an Angelo Dillulo video and felt compelled to look for the person. I looked inside for the “me” and noticed “there is only a sense of a me.” And then looked for the sense of me and quickly realized “the sense of me is also only a thought. There is no one here.” I immediately felt this lightness and sense of openness like I have never felt. It was an undeniable knowing that there is no person here- just thoughts reflecting in a way that creates the sense of a person.

Since that evening I have had moments of pure bliss, joy, and complete openness/lack of resistance to anything. I have also felt much less inclined to participate in spiritual seeking activities (I don’t even know what I would be searching for). However, I have also had many moments of seemingly complete mind-identification, as if this insight never existed. Then I will spontaneously slip back into peace that feels like nothing could ever be wrong… there could never be a problem ever again. Problems are a formulation of the mind. Then back again into the mind full of doubt and confusion (a mind that feels like “ME”). I still have an underlying sense that everything is okay.

I think that this is an attempt to rectify that it is not what I expected, if it was an awakening. I know these expectations are pure thoughts and thoughts can not know anything about this and that my doubts about this are also thoughts, but hear me out :)

So feeling big doubts that what I had was an awakening (thought part of me does not care at all- the mind won’t let it go). I thought there would be an undoubtably knowing.

Also heard about a “honeymoon period” after awakening where all is flow and ease and weightless for a time. While I do have moments of flow and ease, I expected it to be uninterrupted “knowing” that all is well.

Honestly, these doubts feel so silly right now, because they are just thoughts. I realize the insignificance of them. But, when I flip back to mind-identification these thoughts feel so REAL and TRUE, just as they did before the realization last week.

Maybe this was an awakening, maybe it’s just glimpses.
Again, it’s only the mind that cares to differentiate.

[Bluejay]

Then I will spontaneously slip back into peace that feels like nothing could ever be wrong… there could never be a problem ever again. Problems are a formulation of the mind. Then back again into the mind full of doubt and confusion (a mind that feels like “ME”). I still have an underlying sense that everything is okay.

From what you describe, it sounds like a shift.

This flip-flopping is common.

You may find these two videos helpful:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

So feeling big doubts that what I had was an awakening (thought part of me does not care at all- the mind won’t let it go). I thought there would be an undoubtably knowing.

Also heard about a “honeymoon period” after awakening where all is flow and ease and weightless for a time. While I do have moments of flow and ease, I expected it to be uninterrupted “knowing” that all is well.

Yes, these kind of expectations are common even as awakening deepens. There can be thoughts like "But I thought..."

I also never had a honeymoon period, so that is also not uncommon. Yet different people call different things honeymoon periods. So you may simply had different expectations.

Honestly, these doubts feel so silly right now, because they are just thoughts. I realize the insignificance of them. But, when I flip back to mind-identification these thoughts feel so REAL and TRUE, just as they did before the realization last week.

Maybe this was an awakening, maybe it’s just glimpses.
Again, it’s only the mind that cares to differentiate.

In reality, it's not too important if this was a glimpse or first awakening. You just keep working with what arises in the moment. Since this was just the beginning, there's more deepening work to be done.

Who does this work? That is the mystery :)

[tia22]

I found those videos incredibly helpful… it felt like they were speaking directly to me or about my situation. Thank you so much for sharing. And thank you for the validation of my experience. There is a deep knowing here that corroborates the validity of a true shift. Every once in a while the mind seems to overpower and there is a sense of forgetting. The messages in the videos bring a lot peace ♥️

I feel inclined to sit with all of this for a while. Just soak in it and not try to steer it in any specific direction. Just BE.

I probably won’t be signing on for a while, but will this thread still be here after some time?! I am sure I will need further direction and support as this process matures.