Breaking through views

[Dhvictoria]

Good morning Wesley,

1) Body/mind/heart are not separate, Victoria 'views' them separate; i.e; Victoria is thinking, planning, that's what sorts her money, gives her food and friends, -is this conceit?- , the body is what is being fed and sheltered.

And yet, there is no division, nothing is separate, but hard wired conditioning. Separation and division arise as conceited (?) illusions that cause suffering.

2) hand holds pen, labelling appears immediately in awareness, where is the labeller and the thinker? I notice a strong, heavy , -almost presence-, energy in my head, but there is no solidity in the energy; it disperses straight away leaving not trace, nothing seems to think or judge, but there was judging and thinking and mind, consciousness remember this as habitual.

3) In appearance, heart is detached from body or mind, but in fact, they are together! i.e; fire burns body with anger and mind is foggy, fire, body, fog, mind, anger are not divided, they are co operating, co-arising!

I am not sure that I am answering your questions, it's difficult territory to direct experience with the habitual veil of conditioning.

[Dhvictoria]

Good morning of Saturday

I don't know what happened to my last response, it doesn't seem to appear in the thread, but I posted it on Friday morning... any ideas? Thank you.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

I'm terribly sorry for my late response, I had some things come up here.

1) Body/mind/heart are not separate, Victoria 'views' them separate; i.e; Victoria is thinking, planning, that's what sorts her money, gives her food and friends, -is this conceit?- , the body is what is being fed and sheltered.

Ok so where exactly is Victoria in this case? If she feels to be behind your eyes, look there.

Let's see if a thinker can be found, whether Victoria who is thinking can be found. Wait for the next thought to rise. Did you know what the thought would be, before it happened? Did Victoria think the thought?

heart is detached from body or mind

How is the heart experienced in direct experience? And the mind? What about the body?

For this last one, try and stick only to what you can see / hear / feel (and when I say feel I mean feel like you feel the sensation of the chair you're sitting on).

Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Good evening Wesley,

Thanks for your questions!

Where is Victoria? I look inside; brain, head, trunk, arms, legs, and I can't find Victoria, I don't know what thinks, perhaps a compound of brain and body activity...

A thought arose the eye made contact with the window, then the sunsetting light; yellows and purples make the heart area soft, I didn't know this thoughts would come, there is no one, no one Victoria, just wonder, passing light and thoughts.

The heart area feels softer, warm, expandable, a little weighty, the back of the heart feels a bit achy. The body feels relatively free of pain today, a bit tired though, breathes deep and long, body feels dropping into the earth, muscles feel less contracted and less pain. Legs feel fluffy all the length, waves of a watery sort of sense run down from head to feet into the earth, the skin tingles all around with the waves, nothing much else arises, all is quiet.

Thanks,

[Dhvictoria]

Further to last post,
I have been seeing how there is no place for "I", everything happens naturally together, co operating, but I just cannot see "I" ; the eyes blink, the lungs breathe the mind thinks the heart beats and feels and so does the body and so on, they co operate work together, they simply do! and there is no "being' in charge.

Thanks
Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

The website didn't seem to be working last night so I'm just now back from work and able to respond, sorry for the delay.

Great answers, it looks like you're getting somewhere.

I have been seeing how there is no place for "I", everything happens naturally together, co operating, but I just cannot see "I" ; the eyes blink, the lungs breathe the mind thinks the heart beats and feels and so does the body and so on, they co operate work together, they simply do! and there is no "being' in charge.

Wonderful. Ok so you cannot see the "I". Can you perceive it in any other real way? With any other of the senses?

Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

Good to hear from you! and your much appreciated guide.

All the senses, ie.; eyes, ears, smell, taste, touch, thought seem to flow, doing their deed; arising and falling in awareness, and in co operation. and co arising.

Non perceiving of 'I" continues, which feels relieving and freeing, body feels more relaxed for it, example; it is asked that I deliver Dharma teachings; before, there was a subtle sense of self centredness in that experience; 'me' being "in charge ", now that subtle feeling of self centredness seems to have gone.

In the daily rolling of experience feelings are pleasant i.e; this LU enquiry, the smell of earth in the wood. Others are unpleasant; waking up at night with tachycardia, what then? think :"calm down' until calm.
Or tinnitus; ringing in the ears; here, i think it as 'ringing in the ears', and soon the unpleasantness is gone from awareness.

Mostly body experiences a deep grounding feeling in the low abdomen, it's a familiar feeling to my body; feeling connected, and absence of grasping.

However today, on not receiving your feedback for a while, worry arose in body, muscles tightened, and for quite a time I lost that low abdomen feeling of connexion and detachment.

Good night, With gratitude

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

No protagonist, no story maker, no dwelling in the past or future, no judge, no field marshal, no one.

[WesleySPK]

Good evening Victoria,

Non perceiving of 'I" continues, which feels relieving and freeing, body feels more relaxed for it, example; it is asked that I deliver Dharma teachings; before, there was a subtle sense of self centredness in that experience; 'me' being "in charge ", now that subtle feeling of self centredness seems to have gone.

This sounds like good news overall. Often times with spiritual practices, we have that sense of I sneak in and then we think "ah but I know it isn't real" or maybe you feel like you need to hide that sense of self centerdness because it's not spiritual, etc.

Instead, try to continue inviting that sense of self centerdness. Then just have a look - is anything really there? It's a much more scientific approach.

The entirety of this inquiry could be summed up to this (from my point of view) : when you grab a nearby object, you can see / feel / touch (maybe even hear it). It's there with or without thinking. When you do the same for the "I" or "self", is it there? Anywhere? Or is it ONLY there with thinking?

After enough time looking for the self, just as you look at a nearby object with your sense perceptions, something in you will realize there's just nothing there...

So it seems that you are making progress. But the illusion can be stubborn and sneaky. So anytime you do have a feel or sense of self, invite the experience. Then just look - what's really there?

Or tinnitus; ringing in the ears; here, i think it as 'ringing in the ears', and soon the unpleasantness is gone from awareness.

Tinnitus is miserable, I had it only one time and it was very unpleasant!

However today, on not receiving your feedback for a while, worry arose in body, muscles tightened, and for quite a time I lost that low abdomen feeling of connexion and detachment.

Yes sorry about that, the forum part of the website seemed to be down. Just as a heads up, I am going into my final exams the next two weeks so as I have been doing, i'll be limited to posting 1x daily. I'll try to do more after they're done.

[WesleySPK]

Good evening Victoria,

Non perceiving of 'I" continues, which feels relieving and freeing, body feels more relaxed for it, example; it is asked that I deliver Dharma teachings; before, there was a subtle sense of self centredness in that experience; 'me' being "in charge ", now that subtle feeling of self centredness seems to have gone.

This sounds like good news overall. Often times with spiritual practices, we have that sense of I sneak in and then we think "ah but I know it isn't real" or maybe you feel like you need to hide that sense of self centerdness because it's not spiritual, etc.

Instead, try to continue inviting that sense of self centerdness. Then just have a look - is anything really there? It's a much more scientific approach.

The entirety of this inquiry could be summed up to this (from my point of view) : when you grab a nearby object, you can see / feel / touch (maybe even hear it). It's there with or without thinking. When you do the same for the "I" or "self", is it there? Anywhere? Or is it ONLY there with thinking?

After enough time looking for the self, just as you look at a nearby object with your sense perceptions, something in you will realize there's just nothing there...

So it seems that you are making progress. But the illusion can be stubborn and sneaky. So anytime you do have a feel or sense of self, invite the experience. Then just look - what's really there?

Or tinnitus; ringing in the ears; here, i think it as 'ringing in the ears', and soon the unpleasantness is gone from awareness.

Tinnitus is miserable, I had it only one time and it was very unpleasant!

However today, on not receiving your feedback for a while, worry arose in body, muscles tightened, and for quite a time I lost that low abdomen feeling of connexion and detachment.

Yes sorry about that, the forum part of the website seemed to be down. Just as a heads up, I am going into my final exams the next two weeks so as I have been doing, i'll be limited to posting 1x daily. I'll try to do more after they're done.

[WesleySPK]

No protagonist, no story maker, no dwelling in the past or future, no judge, no field marshal, no one.

Great. So let me leave you with this question : Other than a thought about the self, can the self be experienced in any other way? It is very likely to be something like this : thought about me + sensation (behind the eyes, in stomach, etc.

So other than a thought + a sensation, can you find any self?

Depending on how this exercise goes, we will then try exploring "control"

Have a nice evening,
W

[Dhvictoria]

Good afternoon Wesley,

And good luck with final exams, take your time if you need it!

Your invitation to see self centreness has come very timely, only this afternoon, listening to another person's experience my body felt restless, and there it was: "me" wanting to show the person. It was a shocking experience to notice how easily this 'self' was aroused. Straight away and a bit ashamed asked: where is this self?, where is the feeling in the body?

The self was nowhere to be seen, despite its initial loudness, the thought; "breathe, release", the body becoming expansive, the mind remembered previous selfing, then, let go.

Can I find any self besides thought +perception? I paint, or my hands paint; when the hand takes the brushes all perception -except colour and form- disappear, awareness comes back when the thought : 'done' arises and it all falls again, joyful and satisfying!. Playing a musical instrument and singing: there is only sound passing through, joyful and wholesome! With Chronic pain; only body surrendering into the earth, liberating. These are familiar direct experiences.

However, I need to use "I" "me" and "mine" to communicate with people, the world, there is no use to speak in neutral terms when passing information there will not be understanding of what is said, we all relate to each other with pronouns.

Many thanks

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

And good luck with final exams, take your time if you need it!

Thank you :)

Your invitation to see self centreness has come very timely, only this afternoon, listening to another person's experience my body felt restless, and there it was: "me" wanting to show the person. It was a shocking experience to notice how easily this 'self' was aroused. Straight away and a bit ashamed asked: where is this self?, where is the feeling in the body?

It can be difficult to inquire in a social situation like that. You can test it out if you would like, but something simple such as "is there really a "me" here anywhere, aside from thoughts?" will suffice. No need to make it too complicated in those moments.

Can I find any self besides thought +perception? I paint, or my hands paint; when the hand takes the brushes all perception -except colour and form- disappear, awareness comes back when the thought : 'done' arises and it all falls again, joyful and satisfying!. Playing a musical instrument and singing: there is only sound passing through, joyful and wholesome! With Chronic pain; only body surrendering into the earth, liberating. These are familiar direct experiences.

I'm curious, when you inquire, what do you do exactly? Are you sitting down? Or are you doing activities?

However, I need to use "I" "me" and "mine" to communicate with people, the world, there is no use to speak in neutral terms when passing information there will not be understanding of what is said, we all relate to each other with pronouns.

Of course, you will go on using I and me, this really isn't going to change much. Again my advice is to not worry to much while you're in interaction with other people.

Keep it simple, pick up the nearest object. Observe it with all your sense perceptions. Really soak in that experience.

Now turn and in the exact same way, look for the "me". What do you find?

Have a nice evening,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

I have been holding an object exploring it with all my senses, noticing the texture, the smell, the sensation in my hands, the colour and the effect in the mind-heart. I experience a pleasing co operation of the senses involved, I would say they co-arise to meet each other and see ‘tooth paste”, that’s all there is. I look for a sense of ‘my, me I, ‘and I still cannot find “I” in the mix, it’s truly the arising of sense experiences co operating that make tooth paste, and then it disappears.

Next:

When I enquire what is that I do exactly?

Being committed to following the Buddhism path of awakening for many years, the looking inwardly, asking myself “what/who/how/where is happening” has become a second nature, or to put it differently it is one of the tools to keep awareness alive, enhance it, progress and transform.

So, I question myself in all situations and places, and in all positions, it’s natural, I live to break through the difficulties, views that I encounter. And I feel much gratitude for your guidance because it structures and focus what I have been doing so far, that has to be good! I may do it in a way that to you appears difficult or clanky, that’s the way it has been for me! I stand to be corrected or advised if it leads to breaking through and being more efficient, kind, truthful, and wise.

The enquiry method of LU via emails homing in very precise questions or points is very new to me, and I am keen to adjust to the new if it breaks with “my self”.

I have been wondering if, sometimes LU “allows” for screen meeting with the guide; I am too aware of how ‘seeing’ another person can clarify and explain further some things that appeared complicated, or before, were difficult to explain. Written language has limitations, spoken and body language can compliment give accuracy and clarity.

Many thanks

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

The entirety of this inquiry could be summed up to this (from my point of view) : when you grab a nearby object, you can see / feel / touch (maybe even hear it). It's there with or without thinking. When you do the same for the "I" or "self", is it there? Anywhere? Or is it ONLY there with thinking


I must add responding to this that in the experience of seeing. noticing, smelling, holding, pleasant feeling 'tooth paste' there was NO THINKING, it was followed by non perception, more not thinking . When I looked for "I" in the experience, anywhere, there was no experience of "I".

There is something else to pull apart when I read your message; "ONLY thinking" = mind automatic teller of of stories, ONLY thinking= mind aware, informed to the other senses? this is my question to you, because, in my experience "only thinking" is not very well defined; it can mean the thought that arose automatically and likely will lead to stories, or the thought that arises from a mind that has been trained in meditation or enquiry, or any other method, and it's a creative mind that 'sees' through illusion.

Thanks