It just feels like it's the right moment. Very unusual for me...

[Rendrag]

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.
However, is an apple actually known?

Stacy,

Not entirely what is meant by the phrase "is always here."

Turning to the blue questions, if all of the six different elements that make up "looking in actual experience" - sound, color, smell, taste, sensation, thought arising - if each one of those points to "apple" than isn't that by definition finding an apple in actual experience?

Buddhism talks of two truths: relative and absolute. https://www.lionsroar.com/what-are-the-two-truths/ Is this what the apple exercise points to? That on the relative level there actually is something called an apple but on the absolute level there isn't an apple?

[Anastacia42]

Hi Art,

"is always here."

This is very literal.

Direct/ Actual Experience is always here, but our content of thought is made up & maybe someday through LOOKING you will see that it not only is not always here, but was *never* here.

However, it does you no good at all for me to explain it. You must SEE it for yourself. In the beginning, I will explain a few things while you are learning to separate DE from made up content of thought.

Turning to the blue questions, if all of the six different elements that make up "looking in actual experience" - sound, color, smell, taste, sensation, thought arising - if each one of those points to "apple" than isn't that by definition finding an apple in actual experience?

No. Not at all. This story is what you must unlearn so that you can see DE clearly.

Buddhism talks of two truths: relative and absolute. https://www.lionsroar.com/what-are-the-two-truths/ Is this what the apple exercise points to? That on the relative level there actually is something called an apple but on the absolute level there isn't an apple?

Yes. That's one way of merely *thinking* about it. but this is not what we are here for. Remember Colored Socks?

Put down the Buddhism. You've been asked & agreed to suspend other paths while you are being guided here.

Please go back & do the Apple Exercise without thinking & without referring to any other methods. Just LOOK.


You'll be glad you did

Loving,

[Rendrag]

This is very literal.

That is both startling and helpful.

No. Not at all. This story is what you must unlearn so that you can see DE clearly.

Ultimately, are there such things as right, wrong, meaning, and morality?

You've been asked & agreed to suspend other paths while you are being guided here.

Understood and agreed, just grabbing a frame of reference to see if I'm looking in the same direction as you.

Please go back & do the Apple Exercise without thinking & without referring to any other methods. Just LOOK. Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, it can't be found...

..and when I ask Google for a picture of one or look at grocery store signage for one, I keep encountering incredibly similar sets of sensory input. So do we label it into a pseudo-existence, so to speak?

[Anastacia42]

Good Evening, Art,

Glad to be "both startling & helpful." Nice combination & exactly what we're after here.

Ultimately, are there such things as right, wrong, meaning, and morality?

Do you want my answer or would you like to look for yourself? You'll get a whole lot more from your own discoveries.

If you want to LOOK for yourself, please tell me what makes up "right, wrong, meaning, and morality?"

Can you find them in Direct/Actual Experience of Seeing, Hearing, Touching/ Sensation, Tasting or Smelling?

Or are they the content of Thought Arising? A story?

Another way to look is, "would a newborn baby Experience them or would they have to be taught?"


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Oh, and yes, no "apple" can be found. We made it up!

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Sorry for 3 replies, but...

.

and when I ask Google for a picture of one or look at grocery store signage for one, I keep encountering incredibly similar sets of sensory input. So do we label it into a pseudo-existence, so to speak?

Yes, I suppose you could call it that. Some call it "consensus reality." It is a convenience & one you'll continue to use, but right now, let's learn to find Actual/ Direct Experience, the part we did not create or make up.

Loving,

[Rendrag]

Hey Stacy,

Do you want my answer or would you like to look for yourself? If you want to LOOK for yourself, please tell me what makes up "right, wrong, meaning, and morality?"

Can you find them in Direct/Actual Experience of Seeing, Hearing, Touching/ Sensation, Tasting or Smelling?

No, I can't.

Or are they the content of Thought Arising? A story?

To me – and I'm splitting hairs here a little – "right, wrong, meaning, and morality" are too complex to be the content of thought. They are stories, many thoughts woven together, but that is perhaps my bias. I'm kind of a story person...

Now, I want to be really clear. This understanding is not the place I live 24/7, maybe more like 0.5/24/7 on really good days. For the past two years or so I've really struggled with that understanding and its implications re those terms. For the past few months, however, that struggle just sort of faded into the background and a kinda weird calmness opened and that's why I'm here.

...and, yes, that too is a story.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Yes, you came to my answer. No, they don't exist. They are all stories (which are made up of thoughts, sometimes hundreds of them).

a kinda weird calmness opened and that's why I'm here.

Yes, that's what I felt when I saw no self or "gated," as is called here.

Can you clearly say there's no self, never has been, never will be? Or only half the day you see it that way?

Loving,

[Rendrag]

Can you clearly say there's no self, never has been, never will be? Or only half the day you see it that way?

Half the day?!?

LOL. My error. I was trying to convey half of a hour....accumulative....on rare "good" days.

Now, can I clearly say there's no self, never has been, never will be? Yes, I can clearly say, mean, and believe there's no self, never has been and never will be. There is nothing inherently "me" about me. There is a great amount of cognitive understanding in this regard.

Is there an experiential understanding? Brief, fleeting, and completely of its own mind. Just comes and goes. Not at all directly tied (as far as I can tell) to any effort or practice. Certainly no revelatory moment, no 'AH-HA!'. But, yes, there are those moments, glimpses really, of a kinda weird calmness, a sense of a slightly twisted yet somehow deeply poetic beauty to it all.

Can I live authentically from either of those understandings? Well, now we're down to seconds per day....on rare "good" days.

[Rendrag]

Stacy,

PS. Thanks for doing this!

[Anastacia42]

Ah, I see. Well, *any* moments of openness seeing there's no self is more than most people will ever get, or even ever seek. You're doing fine.

And you're welcome, Art. Happy to help!

Now try this:

Hearing Exercise

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'? What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Loving,

[Rendrag]

Well, that's weird. I guess I didn't hit submit yesterday. I proofread it and everything. Sorry. I'll try again...

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'? What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

I was listening to a few different things at different times. One session had the news on in the background, it was the a recap of the 1/6 commission hearings which brought up different emotions. So, with that in mind...

1) That which can be heard does bring up sensations, emotions, thoughts, and such which can be found but are independent of of sound.

2) There is only what can be heard followed by whatever that hearing causes to arise.

3) Only when I open my eyes and look to I see body.

4&5) No.

Again, sorry about the issues posting.

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Partly because I nearly always reply on my phone, I strongly prefer that you Quote one question, then Reply; another Question, then Reply. It's much easier for me

I'll reply from my laptop when I get home.

Thanks,

[Anastacia42]

Okay, hi, again.

1) That which can be heard does bring up sensations, emotions, thoughts, and such which can be found but are independent of of sound.

I'm curious about this concept of "cause" implied by "does bring up..." You do see that sound & thought are independent, but you seem to think one causes the other.

2) There is only what can be heard followed by whatever that hearing causes to arise.

Again, an idea that there's a connection or "cause."

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is one of the more famous logical fallacies. It's the false idea that just because something follows something else, there is this thing called "cause."

I can't understand your reply to #3.

You say

3) Only when I open my eyes and look to I see body.

in answer to an 8 part question. Or at least 4 parts if the first 6 are counted as just one.

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'? What do you find?

I can follow the last 2. You're saying that no inherent hearer can be found & even if you did find one, it would only be a "concept/idea/thought." That's true.

Try this:

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment:

Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.

Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.

And notice that you're not making them happen. ​You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.

You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts!

Relax in order to see this. It may feel like taking a tiny step in & back.

Let me know how this goes. What is experienced?

Loving,

[Rendrag]

Let me know how this goes. What is experienced?

Dear Stacy,

Played with this a little this evening but it was too overwhelming. I feel like I'm living in two worlds the last few days.

The world of 'consensus reality' is too overwhelming as of late. In that world there is 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' but to say that is all — and I know, or assume, that is not what you're saying — is to deny cause and effect which is, in part, why much of the world and all of mine is about to go back into lockdown and people are needlessly dying. To say that isn't ultimately real seems a bit too detached at moment. There is much, much anger.

When I try to 'take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment' as the news plays I find it impossible to even cognitively grasp this day-to-day perspective isn't ultimately real.

Turn off the news and the world of 'ultimate reality' arises although the setting has only undergone one change. There is the sound of the overhead fan swirling and air rushing past my skin, but I both know in my head and feel in my heart the two are not related.

No doubt I'm probably going faster than I should, need to wade in rather than jump off the high diving board.

Going for a walk on local pier and take in the sensory input. Will keep you posted.

Loving,

Art