It just feels like it's the right moment. Very unusual for me...

[Rendrag]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I pick up a pen and remove the cap. Is the pen still a pen? Is the cap a pen?

I withdraw the ink tube from the plastic cylinder. Is the ink tube a pen? Is the cylinder a pen?

I remove the metal tip from the ink tube and squeeze ink onto the cap's tip. Is the open-ended tube a pen? Is the cap a pen?

Find the pen and you'll find a self.

What are you looking for at LU?
Stabilization of the fleeting glances that there is no self.

That's all really. Continuing to type for the sole purpose of getting to two-hundred characters, the minimum amount required for submitti

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance, feedback, encouragement, support, patience and pushing as needed, an understanding of the process in which I'm being guided so I can eventually guide myself, occasional sharing on what the process was like for the guide, and liberation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I attended a Roman Catholic grade school and the family went to mass weekly during that time. We moved just as I entered junior high where I made new friends who were part of a evangelical youth group that I joined and whose influence lingered into my late teens. Can't say I consider either of those periods as true spiritual practice. Just mentioning them by way of background.

About twenty years pass with the express desire of *not* wanting a spiritual practice. Then, to put it as briefly yet as accurately as possible, I am very contently minding my own business at a Barnes & Noble when the universe reaches down, hits me over the head with a 2x4, and then whispers, "Have you ever considered meditating?"

So I start. One thing leads to another and less than two years later I am actively involved at Tibetan Buddhist center and spend the about 15 years practicing, attending retreats, and the like. That phase ran its course followed by a few years of not much of anything. I come across an Advaita teacher, things resonate, a fellow traveler tells me about LU, I'm skeptical as is my nature, I notice a profound shift in my friend, and here I am.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Normally, as a guide, I try to respond to those who have been waiting the longest, but your subject line caught my interest and your post did, as well. The skepticism you mention will get in your way, as will all thinking, but we can try to deal with that.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

[Rendrag]

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Hello Stacy,

Nice to meet you. My name is Art and I live in the Pacific Time Zone.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it.....Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

Done!

How will life change?

Being rather specific here, as is my nature in these things, but not really expecting life itself to change. More expecting *my experience* of live to change.

How will you change?

The expectations surrounding a self. a 'me', to diminish. The thoughts "I am (mood/looks/attitude/accomplishments/etc)" those would lessen or I would stop identifying with it as much.

What will be different?

My experience of my attitude, outlook, disposition will not be so tied to "me." A type of liberation, so to speak, from being so tied to these thoughts and experiences.

What is missing?

Actually, nothing is missing. The issue seems to be what "I" bring to the table so to speak. This "I" is getting in the way. Almost like it might be right now. Kinda feels like answering from my head but also feels authentic from a 'core' level . . . whatever that may mean.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Hi, Art.

Those are relatively reasonable expectations, since you don't expect to be blissed out 24/7 or become some imagined "perfect." :)

Now what comes up when is read there is no self, never has been and never will be?

Loving,

[Rendrag]

Now what comes up when is read there is no self, never has been and never will be?

There is a cognitive, intellectual understanding and agreement that this is so.

In terms experiential or emotional understanding, there is a brief experience of resignation (a sigh), then an experience where things kinda go blank - not that there is nothing to experience but rather there is nobody experiencing. Then a flash of boredom and the intellectual narrative come back.

[Anastacia42]

Okay, good. We've checked expectations & fears. - the only 2 things that can prevent SEEING.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Much love,

[Rendrag]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Even though I wasn't wearing socks when reading, I think I understand. ; )

[Anastacia42]

Great, so let's find out...

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Rendrag]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Thinking about this exercise, simply = thought
Thinking about that thought, simply = thought
Thinking about that thought, simply = thought
View background color of webpage, simply = color/image
View background color of nav menu, simply = color/image
Become aware of aftertaste from dinner in mouth, simply = taste
Focus on background audio from TV, simply = hearing
Forearms sliding on desktop, simply = sensation
Thinking about this exercise, simply = thought
Imagine eating bite from chocolate bar in fridge, simply = thought

Is this about right re format and if so, can I play with this some more tomorrow?

[Anastacia42]

Yes & please do. You've got it.

Loving,

[Rendrag]

Yes & please do. You've got it.

Feeling deflated, simply = thought?
Furrowed brow, simply = sensation
Hunched upper back, simply = sensation
Feeling confused, simply = thought
Feeling fogginess in head, simply = sensation
Burb from beer, simply = taste
Noticing contrast between black text/white page, simply = thought?
Feeling unease, simply = thought
Feeling tingly, simply = sensation
Feeling slightly threatened, simply = thought
Petting cat, simply = sensation
Hearing purr, simply = sound

Stacy, just want to mention something that might be of interest. I’m noticing a lot of reluctance over this exercise, specifically getting started. Once underway, that diminishes and just sort of hangs in the background. It is just hard to get underway.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Art

Feeling deflated, simply = thought?

Yes & there may be a Sensation component

Noticing contrast between black text/white page, simply = thought?

Yes & what about color/ image?

Feeling unease, simply = thought

Yes, and again, check for a Sensation.

Most emotions are Sensation plus an interpretation, which we recognize as a story, the content of Thought Arising, something made up, something we had c to learn that is not AE not inherent in the Sensation.

I like to ask clients to check the Sensations that are involved in fear and then check the Sensations that are involved in excitement. Usually, they are pretty closely matched. At least in the same ballpark. This is a good example of different interpretations for the same, or similar experiences of Sensation.

I’m noticing a lot of reluctance over this exercise, specifically getting started.

Hmm, did you notice that the first time? Did it seem too simple? Do you see how following the exact format shifts the interpretation of what is found?

Let me know.

It's pretty early to get discouraged, but we can deal with those thoughts. You're doing just fine!

Loving,

[Rendrag]

Feeling deflated, simply = thought?
Yes & there may be a Sensation component
Noticing contrast between black text/white page, simply = thought?
Yes & what about color/ image?
Feeling unease, simply = thought
Yes, and again, check for a Sensation.

Most emotions are Sensation plus an interpretation, which we recognize as a story, the content of Thought Arising, something made up, something we had c to learn that is not AE not inherent in the Sensation.

I like to ask clients to check the Sensations that are involved in fear and then check the Sensations that are involved in excitement. Usually, they are pretty closely matched. At least in the same ballpark. This is a good example of different interpretations for the same, or similar experiences of Sensation.

Yes, it is my experience as well that emotions are definitely sensations more than thoughts. It is just during the exercise I labeled some emotions as thoughts and other emotions as sensations depending on whether I first noticed a thought regarding emotional state or a sensation. For example, I first thought "I feeling confused" and then looked at why I thought I experiencing that emotion and it was do to a fogginess in the head, being unable collect thoughts.

I’m noticing a lot of reluctance over this exercise, specifically getting started.
Hmm, did you notice that the first time? Did it seem too simple? Do you see how following the exact format shifts the interpretation of what is found?
?

Yes I did notice it as well the first time. I don't think it has anything to do with feeling discouraged. Quite the opposite. I attributed it the "sense of self that creates the I" understanding exactly how effective this exercise is in shifting interpretation and therefore trying to distract me from doing it,

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,


labeled some emotions as thoughts and other emotions as sensations depending on whether I first noticed a thought regarding emotional state or a sensation.
In that case, you want to list both Sensation & Thought Arising. It doesn't matter which you noticed disuse.

I first thought "I feeling confused" and then looked at why I thought I experiencing that emotion and it was do to a fogginess in the head, being unable collect thoughts.

Yes, and something else to know is that Sensation labeled "confusion" and "foggy" mostly arise when you're *thinking* not LOOKING in order to answer.



Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Oops

Typos. That blue text was a quote.

"Disuse" should have been "first."

Mea culpa. Things happen.

Thanks!