Seekng insight

[s-p-a-c-e]

Where I tend to get stuck is that I can’t get over the idea that there is a self that ultimately controls my actions. I feel that when confronted with certain situations, I consciously decide to react in a certain way. I don’t associate habitual actions with a sense of self, but the deliberate thought out actions where I would tend to react in a different way than others seem to suggest a self to me. In my experience, this decider suggests a constant unchanging self to me.

That's fine. Now, reading your response, you don't say anything substantial about the constant unchanging self, other than as an idea. So what I'd like you to do, is sit and seriously have a scan of yourself, inside and out. Feelings, sensations, thoughts, self-talk, movements, eyes, head, chest, gut. And I want you to identify anything that could have some merit, however small, as a candidate for a self that might decide.

Share what you discover.

Thank you,
John

[rsdavis]

I’ve been spending a good deal of time looking inward, and I cannot find a self in consciousness. I’m having trouble finding a self that controls my actions. It seems like much of that I do comes from some process not in consiousness and if it is a thought out action, these thoughts are definitely not controlled by an I. There seems to be a lot of unconscious responses to outward stimulus.

Also, my mind seems to hate uncertainty, so it makes up stories based on the stimuli or past events. The mind also likes to make up stories about who I am, and any event that contradicts this event. None of these stories seem to be truth because other people’s stories about me or the same past events are completely different than my story.

These realizations have brought me a good deal of peace the last couple of days, but I still struggle at times with being pulled in by these stories(especially when I wake up). I tell myself that these are just stories, but my mind seems to be really caught up in them at times. I also have a fear that not giving these thoughts any weight will have a negative impact on my life. Even if these are a defense mechanism, they have served me well at times(even if they have made me miserable).

[s-p-a-c-e]

I’ve been spending a good deal of time looking inward, and I cannot find a self in consciousness. I’m having trouble finding a self that controls my actions. It seems like much of that I do comes from some process not in consiousness and if it is a thought out action, these thoughts are definitely not controlled by an I. There seems to be a lot of unconscious responses to outward stimulus.

I'd forget about this 'self' business for now. One thing at a time.

Also, my mind seems to hate uncertainty, so it makes up stories based on the stimuli or past events. The mind also likes to make up stories about who I am, and any event that contradicts this event. None of these stories seem to be truth because other people’s stories about me or the same past events are completely different than my story.
These realizations have brought me a good deal of peace the last couple of days, but I still struggle at times with being pulled in by these stories(especially when I wake up). I tell myself that these are just stories, but my mind seems to be really caught up in them at times. I also have a fear that not giving these thoughts any weight will have a negative impact on my life. Even if these are a defense mechanism, they have served me well at times(even if they have made me miserable).

Stories are a way of describing life. An abstraction 'me' is used to feature in the story. Why? So that you can think ABOUT you in this or that situation.

You, like we all are at one point or another, are deeply invested in the 'me' in the story. This is all identification is. You are 'me' in the story, and never ruthlessly question it.

Sit, and say, "I am 'me' in the story."

Now, think about next week, or work, or what's for dinner, or some everyday story about your life.

As you do, keep in mind "I am 'me' in the story."

Do this several times, till you see how absurd it is. :)

Share any discoveries.

Best wishes,
John

[rsdavis]

When I realize that my abstraction or story of “I” is placed at the center of these stories, it seems that stories that I make up don’t happen to me since there is no me for them to happen to. These made up events(if they ever do happen), would be happenings, but they wouldnt be things that are happening to me or the self. The mind seems to want to control many things which it has no control over, including other people’s actions or event that have way more influences than I can understand. It seems to make up a self in a desperate to protect itself from danger. It is also interesting to note that my mind tends to make up selves or stories about others that are not true(maybe in hopes of predicting the actions of others) this also seems to be a rediculous endeavor as well.

[s-p-a-c-e]

When I realize that my abstraction or story of “I” is placed at the center of these stories, it seems that stories that I make up don’t happen to me since there is no me for them to happen to. These made up events(if they ever do happen), would be happenings, but they wouldnt be things that are happening to me or the self. The mind seems to want to control many things which it has no control over, including other people’s actions or event that have way more influences than I can understand. It seems to make up a self in a desperate to protect itself from danger. It is also interesting to note that my mind tends to make up selves or stories about others that are not true(maybe in hopes of predicting the actions of others) this also seems to be a rediculous endeavor as well.

"When I realize that my abstraction or story of “I” is placed at the center of these stories, it seems that stories that I make up don’t happen to me since there is no me for them to happen to."

For now, rather than saying 'no me', do you have some sense of there being a me?
If so, what's that like?
If not, what's that like?

Thanks,
John

[rsdavis]

Throughout the the day, after looking, I seem to lose the sense that a me exists. All that exists, is an awareness of consciousness and the different aspects of consciousness. I notice some tension or habitual reactions to the stimuli around, but without identification with these sensations just arise and are not bothersome. Much of the time, the past past week there seems to be a lot more joy arising. I’m hoping that this isn’t just due to the coming of spring(which is another thought in awareness), this joy somehow feels different than what usually comes up this time of year.

I will say that in the morning or late at night identifying with a sense of me still arises. I think in the morning, this has more to do with a habitual reaction to the work day coming up, but I cannot bring myself to stop identifying with these worries. I’m wondering if that is just the fatigue, but I’m guessing it shouldn’t matter if you are tired or not. I look at what is identifying with these worries and I can’t find anything, but something about it feels similar to how things felt before. When I feel this sense of me, there seems to be a lot of tension and contraction. I can feel similar sensations at times during the day, but it doesn’t seem to be bothersome.

I hope that makes sense. It is often difficult for me to put these things into words.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Throughout the the day, after looking, I seem to lose the sense that a me exists. All that exists, is an awareness of consciousness and the different aspects of consciousness. I notice some tension or habitual reactions to the stimuli around, but without identification with these sensations just arise and are not bothersome. Much of the time, the past past week there seems to be a lot more joy arising. I’m hoping that this isn’t just due to the coming of spring(which is another thought in awareness), this joy somehow feels different than what usually comes up this time of year.

Ok, good.
Are you saying that thoughts (say, the thought of spring coming) have no value, or not to be enjoyed?

I will say that in the morning or late at night identifying with a sense of me still arises. I think in the morning, this has more to do with a habitual reaction to the work day coming up, but I cannot bring myself to stop identifying with these worries. I’m wondering if that is just the fatigue, but I’m guessing it shouldn’t matter if you are tired or not. I look at what is identifying with these worries and I can’t find anything, but something about it feels similar to how things felt before. When I feel this sense of me, there seems to be a lot of tension and contraction. I can feel similar sensations at times during the day, but it doesn’t seem to be bothersome.

Good description, thank you.

"...but I cannot bring myself to stop identifying with these worries."

Let's say one morning, you woke up, and that didn't happen.
There were 'worries', but not a 'you' at the centre of them.

Play it through in your mind...What is happening here, differently to previous times?
What is it like, to not be at the 'centre' of 'worry' thoughts, and still handle them?

I hope that makes sense. It is often difficult for me to put these things into words.

All good.

Best wishes,
John

[rsdavis]

On further introspection, when looking at the difference between when I seem to be identifying with my thoughts and when there is no “I” at the center of my anxieties or difficult feelings, I can find no actual difference. The only difference I can find is a thought about a thought, which seems quite odd to me.

In response to the thoughts about spring being enjoyed, I guess I am confused about my response to thoughts. It seems that many of these thoughts are built on falsehoods or stories, but as we had discussed before, thoughts are a way of interpreting the information coming into consciousness. It seems difficult or impossible to function without some thoughts or mental formations. I guess I’m wondering how much weight I should give to thoughts. Any guidance on this dilemma would be much appreciated.

[s-p-a-c-e]

In response to the thoughts about spring being enjoyed, I guess I am confused about my response to thoughts. It seems that many of these thoughts are built on falsehoods or stories, but as we had discussed before, thoughts are a way of interpreting the information coming into consciousness. It seems difficult or impossible to function without some thoughts or mental formations. I guess I’m wondering how much weight I should give to thoughts. Any guidance on this dilemma would be much appreciated.

At the very least, we can see that thoughts are a natural phenomenon.

Thoughts vary hugely in kind and content. Some will help us build a shed, and some will make us terrified about a job interview. :)

So, thoughts are thoughts. To be neither disregarded, or obsessed over. They are rather like offerings, and we might make use of one, or not.

The question is: when do thoughts seem problematic?

And when you look closely, it's not the thought that's problematic, but how we approach it, and thereby, what we do with it.

This, of course, is magnified when identifying with my 'self'. Effectively, putting myself inside the world of thought as true. Living in a narrative. This is the lot of most folk, and what we are looking to wake up from.

Ponder on this a while.

Thanks,
john

[rsdavis]

Looking at it closely, I can see you are correct. When I don’t put myself in the middle of these predictions, it seems like either these events just occur(but not to my story of me), or I wonder the event should even worry me or impact me in any way. It seems like much(if not all) of the things I’m worried about happening, are troubling because they would conflict with my made up identity. Not putting this identity in the middle of these events seems to take away their sting.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Looking at it closely, I can see you are correct. When I don’t put myself in the middle of these predictions, it seems like either these events just occur(but not to my story of me), or I wonder the event should even worry me or impact me in any way. It seems like much(if not all) of the things I’m worried about happening, are troubling because they would conflict with my made up identity. Not putting this identity in the middle of these events seems to take away their sting.

Quite. Any time you feel immersed in thought, or identifying with a narrative, pause and see that the narrative is but a narrative - neither true nor false. It is a narrative, that's it.

The more you do this, it changes your approach to thought and narrative. They have less and less hold on you, for the simple reason: they are only narratives, and cannot hold anything!! So, the 'hold' on you, is rather you taking on the narrative as true!

In getting this, thoughts come and go, and some you touch and leave, and some you use.

Do this with several thoughts till you start to see thoughts as narrative only.

With kind thanks,
John

[rsdavis]

You are right. The more I do this, the less troublesome thoughts are. Every once in a while, I still get caught up in a narrative, but it happens less and less. It seems that it takes a little time to counteract 30 years of habitual response to my thoughts.

[s-p-a-c-e]

You are right. The more I do this, the less troublesome thoughts are. Every once in a while, I still get caught up in a narrative, but it happens less and less. It seems that it takes a little time to counteract 30 years of habitual response to my thoughts.

Well, yes, consider the implications.

Every single verbal thought that comes your way is a narrative.
In taking every single verbal thought as a narrative, no longer are we hooked into it.
What had hooked us is the assumption that it was true.
It's neither true nor false.
We dig out that assumption and set it aside.

This includes the narrative of 'you', of who you are.

Today approach every single verbal thought as a simple narrative.
Dig out that assumption and and it aside.

Explore, see what you find.

John

[rsdavis]

You are correct. I’m not sure why I was ever afraid of my thoughts. Now, they can come and go without any resistance. Looking at my thoughts, I also realize that I am not thinking any of these thoughts. They seem to arise when certain stimuli comes up. When someone says a certain phrase or brings up a certain subject or I see a certain picture, the same conditioned thoughts seem to come up. These thoughts are often just an interpretation of the stimulus and don’t need to be taken at face value. I also see that many of the things that I thought were anxiety or depression were not felt by me, but were feelings that the product of certain stimuli. For example, after I drink alcohol or coffee or spent to much time on social media, feelings of anxiety would arise. I used to think that there was an I thinking these thoughts or having these feelings or that these feelings meant that I was in danger somehow, now if they do arise, I allow them to be without taking them at face value. I appreciate your guidance on all this. I’m not sure why I didn’t see it sooner.

[s-p-a-c-e]

You are correct. I’m not sure why I was ever afraid of my thoughts. Now, they can come and go without any resistance. Looking at my thoughts, I also realize that I am not thinking any of these thoughts. They seem to arise when certain stimuli comes up. When someone says a certain phrase or brings up a certain subject or I see a certain picture, the same conditioned thoughts seem to come up. These thoughts are often just an interpretation of the stimulus and don’t need to be taken at face value. I also see that many of the things that I thought were anxiety or depression were not felt by me, but were feelings that the product of certain stimuli. For example, after I drink alcohol or coffee or spent to much time on social media, feelings of anxiety would arise. I used to think that there was an I thinking these thoughts or having these feelings or that these feelings meant that I was in danger somehow, now if they do arise, I allow them to be without taking them at face value. I appreciate your guidance on all this. I’m not sure why I didn’t see it sooner.

Good stuff.

In turning this on the narratives of 'me', on 'who I am', on what 'me' likes, hates, prefers, on what 'me' wants to do in life, 'my' struggles, 'my' dreams, what do you notice?

Warm wishes,
John