Seekng insight

[rsdavis]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
This is a program to help people see through the illusion of a constant unchanging self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking to explore this concept more fully as well as guidance on how to dispel the illusion of the self. I often see glimpses of how there is no self, but I’m hoping to come to an understanding that is more permanent.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be asked questions that will make me examine my understanding of the self and consciousness. I hope to be exposed to insights that have not been readily available or that are difficult for me to access. I hope to continue any progress I have made on this path.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have meditated for around five years now and and a lot of Buddhist and other literature about the self. I have made good strides the last month and am homing to continue with this progress.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Ben2]

Hi RSDavis

My name is Ben and I'm happy to be your guide.

Let's get straight into it.

The thought "I", what does it point to?

Look in your direct, immediate experience only.

Let me know what you find.

Ben

[rsdavis]

Ben, I appreciate your help. When I look into what my mind divides into the self, the following things stick out, there seem to be many parts that make up my sense of I:

I am my body, I have a physical existence in the world. My body seems to be an important part of myself. It controls consciousness in a way since it often controls my relationship to my physical environment.

I have a social self- the part of how I view myself that seems to cause the most distress in my life is the idea of self that my mind creates based on my perceived social standing. This is an interesting aspect because it doesn’t concern how I view myself, but my perception of how others view me. The is the aspect of my mind that correlates my sense of self that is based on my job or how well I am respected by my community, my family/ home life, how I dress etc. This often brings difficulty because I am constantly in fear of losing a certain standing. I think this aspect is one that I struggle with constantly.

My memories- I seem to form a self that is based on the life narrative caused by my past experiences, background, and memories of these experiences. This is an important part of my sense of self because my past experiences make me who I am.

My thoughts- this sense of I is created by the constant stream of thoughts going on in my head. I don’t seem to have as much control over these thoughts and they seem to often contradict themselves(the I that seems to be habitual and the higher level thinking self).

My emotions- this is connected to my thoughts but goes much deeper. It seems that on top of thought emotions have a physical aspect that manifests itself in my body.

I also seem to have habitual reactions to certain stimuli that I seem to associate with my sense of self. That I tend to react a certain way around people to anger etc.

If I look deeper, there seems to be a core I that makes the ultimate decision about my actions(even if these decisions are based off conflicting thoughts going on in my mind). There also seems to be a core self or an I in my head that controls my attention to the many parts of myself listed above. At the deepest level, this is who I view myself as.

[Ben2]

Hi rsdavis

You've given a very analytical answer. This is good for self development purposes, but it's not going to help you here. Don't worry, everyone tends to do this at the start and getting the knack of looking at reality DIRECTLY and without labels/stories takes a bit of practice.

If you remember the original question, I asked for you to LOOK in your direct and immediate experience only. This is key. Any stories or thought-content is only going to get in the way of you seeing the truth for yourself. Things like body, memories, consciousness, emotions, decisions, control, are all stories you've placed on the simple and direct experience of reality.

Here's an exercise that will help clarify this a lot, try doing it as many times as you can throughout the day. Label each experience with the following labels: colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation, or thought.

So for example, as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree = colour.
Smelling coffee = smell.
Feeling the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste.
Hearing a car drive by = sound.
Thinking about work = thought. (Thoughts can either be ‘mental words’ or ‘mental images’)

Just break down all experiences into these categories and let me know how you go. From here on in I'll refer to this raw experience of reality as ACTUAL EXPERIENCE or DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

Talk soon and good luck.

Ben

[rsdavis]

Hey Ben,

After sitting with this for a while my idea of “I” seems to come from my thoughts or mental formations. Which causes me to wonder ultimately if my sense of self is ultimately the thinker inside my mind that controls my decisions.

[Ben2]

Hi rsdavis

Before we move on to any further exploration of how the sense of I is constructed, we need to focus on that precious exercise some more.

Have you been doing the exercise? Did you notice anything about the nature of thought?

Talk soon

Ben

[Ben2]

**previous

[rsdavis]

I have spent a good deal of time on the excercise. When I observe my thoughts, I find that they tend to be quite random. Sometimes they are reactions to the stimuli around me, and sometimes they are related to previous thoughts. For example, when I find myself angry, I try to find other examples of when I was angry in the past to keep that feeling going. Most of the time, they seems to be short spurts that aren’t related to what I’m doing at the present moment. They often aren’t a long coherent narrative, they are a bunch of little threads of unrelated thoughts.

[Ben2]

Okay.

So going back to the original exercise, reducing reality down to the raw sensory input only (colour/sound/sensation/smell/thought), what is thought adding to this basic ACTUAL experience?

[rsdavis]

The only thing that I can think of when it comes to thought adding to this raw experience is that thought seems to want to interpret this direct data and make it meaningful. Often these interpretations seem to be false. Since my mind seems to hate uncertainty, it seems to want to take in incomplete data and fill in the blanks(which then I tend to take these uninformed conclusions as truth).

[Ben2]

Okay great.

So the only things that ACTUALLY exist in reality are colour, sensation, sound, smell and thought.

Thought exists, however the STORIES or CONTENT of thought do not. As you’ve now seen, it’s in thoughts nature to add stories to the raw experience of colour/sensation/sound/smell/thought.

One of the stories thought is adding to reality is the “I” story.

So looking at reality in its raw form only, experiencingonly colour/sensation/sound/smell/thought, which of these has the “I” story labelled?

It may be more than one.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hello,

I'm John, a guide here. Ben has had to attend to other things, so I'm happy to continue.
I take a very different approach, so if you're ok with that, let me know and we can make some steps.

Thank you,
John

[rsdavis]

That sounds great John. I appreciate your help.

[s-p-a-c-e]

That sounds great John. I appreciate your help.

Ok, great! :)

In your first post, you wrote: "...to help people see through the illusion of a constant unchanging self".

As you sit here, what is it that is happening in your experience that indicates a constant unchanging self?

Many thanks,
John

[rsdavis]

Where I tend to get stuck is that I can’t get over the idea that there is a self that ultimately controls my actions. I feel that when confronted with certain situations, I consciously decide to react in a certain way. I don’t associate habitual actions with a sense of self, but the deliberate thought out actions where I would tend to react in a different way than others seem to suggest a self to me. In my experience, this decider suggests a constant unchanging self to me.