Requesting nonaparry

[revenant]

Then you finish reading this, shift focus to the feet. How did the shift of focus happen? Did it simply occur after reading the instructions? Or was there an actual Initiator to initiate the shift and a Focuser to do the focusing?

It just happened after reading the instructions and I haven't encountered any Initiator or Focuser. The focus just shifted. Although when I start thinking about it, it is still a bit of a mystery how it works (e.g. what if I decided upfront not to follow your instructions—then who decided that in the first place?). As you asked me, I will not start making up my theories about it. At least, I see the distinction between the thinking and the seeing now more clearly now, but still get confused when analysing the experience. I have a nagging suspicions that is a side-effect of my engineering/scientific education of many years... ("there must be a way to explain phenomena rationally").

Yes. But Looking is so simple! If I ask you if your cell phone is in your pocket, do you theorise about it? Or do you put a hand in the pocket and bring out the phone?

Of course the latter!

Looking for a self is no more difficult than that.
Look around the room. What do you SEE? Walls, floor, furnishings, ceiling, table or desk, computer…
Are the walls, floor, furnishings, etc present?
Is a self present?
Do you see a self?

Well, no, I don't. It does not exist in direct experience. Well, I came to this realisation after a 15 minute struggle, which involved thinking about stuff I don't see but know (believe) that exists (e.g. radio waves, electricity, the brain and blood cells in my body etc.) It was intensely frustrating, then something clicked and for a moment I saw clearly the distinction between thinking and seeing. There was perceiving the room through the senses and there was no "me"... but just for a split second, when I realised what had happened. I kept smiling again and the eyes became watery. But now that I'm reporting this form memory, I lost that state.

You say "I can feel that separateness…" With which of the five senses is separation felt?
OR, is separation not a feeling at all but a thinking?

I am listening to the sound of the wind through the window now, and no, separateness cannot be felt. When the focus is on direct experience, separateness does not exists—on the contrary, it's a sense of oneness that is present. I realise now that the "feeling of separation" is a thought concept.

In what other ways does language have you assume how Life works?

Okay, here's a few favourites:

"You/I should have/shouldn't have done/said/thought/etc something". Sentences like this are like a complete syntax error to me. Something has just happened; how could anybody think it should (or COULD) have happened otherwise? Although, I have to admit, when such a demand comes in the form of thoughts, not from an other person, I tend to take it seriously far too often.

"Act responsibly/be responsible" – well, people just do whatever they are able to do in a given situation anyway... then these sentences make them feel bad about it afterwards.

"We must fight against this/that in order to whatever" – another syntax error sentence...

"I made a mistake" – hasn't it just rather happened? And what makes it a mistake in the first place?

When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?
Is a red colour experienced or is a green colour experienced as the label suggests?

Sadly, I have to report that the actual words very strongly override the actual experience. I must look very hard to see the real colour what's actually there. I have to tell that I have only noticed the discrepancy when I reached the middle of list...

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with reality?
Or do the labels suggest something other than what they point to?
Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the experience of the red colour, or is green just a word label on the experience of the read colour?

I'm not sure that I 100% understand what you're asking in those three questions, but found this statement to be true: "green [is] just a word label on the experience of the red colour". When I focus on seeing, there is a perception of the colour "red". But when not focusing, in ordinary mode the word "green" overrides the actual perception, so a thought contruct of "green-ness" gets evoked. What this tells me is that language and words (the conceptual reality) have a very powerful ability to override the sensory perceptions (the actual reality).

With eyes closed, noticing sensation only, check for the boundaries of the body. Do you actually feel a distinct boundary between clothing and body? Or is it a fuzzy experience? Do you actually feel a distinct boundary between the buttocks and the chair? Or is there simply pressure?

I feel no distinct boundaries. If there's no pressure or any sensation in a particular part of the body, it's as if that part didn't even exist. But it's more than that; when focusing on the senses and not having thoughts about the body, there is just the sensations. The extents of the body just cannot be sensed. I have also noticed something else quite interesting: when I'm touching my arm with my hand, it doesn't feel like two separate sensations, but rather a single sensation in the same place!

So recall when you were a child, or preferably watch a small child. How are "left of center" and "front of center" learned? Are they sensations? Or are they labels which the child has to learn, like "right" and "left", "green" and "red"?

Unfortunately, I cannot recall that. There are no children nearby to watch either. By thinking about it, the name of colours are certainly learned labels, but I'm not so sure about "left" and "right". Of course, the particular words are learned, but maybe a mental concept of "leftness" and "rightness" (and "centerness") are something humans are born with? But your tribe people example tells otherwise, I realise that.

Whatever is happening in this moment, if you leave out the "I" in your description, does it alter what is actually happening? When you drop the "I" do the events themselves change? Or only the description of the events?

Okay let's see:

I am sleepy. I am thirsty. I am drinking water now. I have to do the cleaning after finishing this reply.

There is sleepiness. Sensation of thirst. Drinking of water. The cleaning needs to be done next after finishing the writing.

I literally did all the above twice, and in the first version there's some annoying restlessness present ("I don't want to be sleepy and thirsty", "I should have slept more", "Why am I so stupid not to go to bed in time", "I have to finish this soon because I must do the cleaning" etc.). If I leave out the I, things lose their edge and there's some sort of acceptance of what is (or what needs to be done) and I feel more calm and relaxed. It's subtle, but it's there.

So no, the events did not really change, but their interpretation (description) did, and therefore my reaction to them did change as well.

What would be the consequence of Life without an "I"? What would/could not happen without an "I" to do it? What does not simply happen without an "I" to direct, initiate, engage in, and complete it?

I guess it would be less stressful, based on my latest experiences. Also more fun with less needless worrying. Music writing would definitely happen (one of my former fears), I have absolutely no doubts about that. And just about anything else that's happening now, just more effortlessly (interpolating from my previous experiences from the last few days). I cannot tell any example now where the "I" is absolutely necessary, but I'll keep thinking about it.

When you have an example, check it in direct experience, in sensation-without-thought. Was an "I" actually required? If not, choose a different example and test it. Keep testing until you find one that absolutely requires an "I".

I will check it when I have one and send another report today.

[nonaparry]

Excellent, revenant!

The focus just shifted.

Good to notice!! Yes, focus just shifts (or doesn't). There is no Initiator, no Focuser, no entity comes along to do the shifting or the focusing.

for a moment I saw clearly the distinction between thinking and seeing.

How exciting!! And the distinction is always there! For those of us who live(d) in our thoughts, unwrapping the thoughts from sensation is not a simple task. But notice that thoughts are overlaid on sensation; they are not actually part of sensation at all!

it is still a bit of a mystery how it works (e.g. what if I decided upfront not to follow your instructions—then who decided that in the first place?)

Well check it out! Is there a Decider that takes over when a decision appears to be made? Or do things simply happen that later we attribute to our having made a decision? The thought process is "Of course I made the decision, how else would the event have occurred?" But the thought process is not a picture of reality!
Lets have a closer look.
Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers positioned ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.
Looking at the fingers in the air, is it known when they will tap? Can the thought “tap now” quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air?
See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes such that the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air.

I see the distinction between the thinking and the seeing now more clearly now, but still get confused when analysing the experience.
("there must be a way to explain phenomena rationally")

Well, yes, of course there is! Only I refer to those explanations as Stories. ALL explanations or theories of how Life works are Stories. In Direct Experience, no single story is a better one than any other; no story holds up in the experience of the Uninterpreted Moment!
Your "default mode" is analytical, but analysis will not help you here. What will help is surrender of analysis and theorizing to Direct Experience of the senses.

Do you see a self?

Well, no, I don't. It does not exist in direct experience.

YES! Excellent Looking!!

Well, I came to this realisation after a 15 minute struggle, which involved thinking about stuff I don't see but know (believe) that exists (e.g. radio waves, electricity, the brain and blood cells in my body etc.)

Good catch! you don't SEE radio waves, electricity, brain, blood cells, etc., but because you believe in them, you assume that explanations (Stories) which rely on these are true.
So here we have Belief/Assumption on the one hand, and the experience of sensation on the other.
We "know" radio waves and electricity exist because we can't explain what happens without them. But what do you actually experience?
Turn on a lamp. What is the experience?
Do you experience electricity running from the mains along a wire to the lamp, heating a filament and producing a bright light?
Or do you only experience a touch and bright light?

something clicked and for a moment I saw clearly the distinction between thinking and seeing. There was perceiving the room through the senses and there was no "me"... but just for a split second, when I realised what had happened.

Excellent! And was there a "me" before you were perceiving the room through the senses? Did a "me" actually leave the room so that you could notice the senses? When the clarity left, did a "me" come back into the room?

I am listening to the sound of the wind through the window now, and no, separateness cannot be felt. When the focus is on direct experience, separateness does not exists—on the contrary, it's a sense of oneness that is present. I realise now that the "feeling of separation" is a thought concept.

YES!! In your direct experience, there is no separation. And you can notice this simply by shifting focus from thinking to sensation.

In what other ways does language have you assume how Life works?

Okay, here's a few favourites:

Ooooo, nice Looking! These are some good ones!!

"You/I should have/shouldn't have done/said/thought/etc something". Sentences like this are like a complete syntax error to me. Something has just happened; how could anybody think it should (or COULD) have happened otherwise?

Most of us imagine that What Is should be different from how it is. This belief is the cause of all human suffering.

"Act responsibly/be responsible" – well, people just do whatever they are able to do in a given situation anyway... then these sentences make them feel bad about it afterwards.

If there is no "I", no "me", no "self" that is doing the actions — and so far you have not found one — then how can one be "responsible" for those actions? Can we be responsible for something over which we have no control?

"We must fight against this/that in order to whatever"

What would be this "we" that must fight or do whatever?

"I made a mistake" – hasn't it just rather happened? And what makes it a mistake in the first place?

Good questions!!!

When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?
Is a red colour experienced or is a green colour experienced as the label suggests?

Sadly, I have to report that the actual words very strongly override the actual experience. I must look very hard to see the real colour what's actually there. I have to tell that I have only noticed the discrepancy when I reached the middle of list...

No surprise, really. The thinking is very strong and has been trained to override the actual experience. Don't take yourself to task over this — just practice noticing what is actually being experienced!
You are sufficiently able to step away from thoughts about should/shouldn't, responsibility, mistakes. What allows you to see through the illusion that should/shouldn't, responsibility, mistakes are True?
Do you see it's an illusion? That only a Thought says the colour label is correct and not the experience of the colour?

"green [is] just a word label on the experience of the red colour". When I focus on seeing, there is a perception of the colour "red". But when not focusing, in ordinary mode the word "green" overrides the actual perception, so a thought contruct of "green-ness" gets evoked. What this tells me is that language and words (the conceptual reality) have a very powerful ability to override the sensory perceptions (the actual reality).

GOOD! Please Notice how focus on sensation alters the perception, but not the reality of the world.
When you wrote "I", there was one perception. Writing just the verbs produces a different perception. But the actual events did not change.

I feel no distinct boundaries. If there's no pressure or any sensation in a particular part of the body, it's as if that part didn't even exist.

YES! And in your Direct Experience, it does not exist — until it does by virtue of sensation.

when focusing on the senses and not having thoughts about the body, there is just the sensations. The extents of the body just cannot be sensed.

Excellent!!! Very good Noticing!!

I have also noticed something else quite interesting: when I'm touching my arm with my hand, it doesn't feel like two separate sensations, but rather a single sensation in the same place!

I am So delighted you noticed this!!! YES!!
Test this out with the other sensations, particularly hearing, smelling, tasting. When a sound is heard, are there two separate sensations, one of the sound and one of the hearing of it? When a scent is noticed are the scent and the smelling of it separate? Or are they the same event? When you put something in the mouth and notice the flavour of it, is the object separate from the flavour? Or is there one single experience which we explain as object + sensation?

There are no children nearby to watch either. By thinking about it, the name of colours are certainly learned labels, but I'm not so sure about "left" and "right".

Thinking about it will only produce theories.
Can you recall when first learning English how you had to learn the label "right" for one side and "left" for the other? Is there any object for which you did not, at some point, learn a label so that you could communicate with others about it?

I am sleepy. I am thirsty. I am drinking water now. I have to do the cleaning after finishing this reply.
There is sleepiness. Sensation of thirst. Drinking of water. The cleaning needs to be done next after finishing the writing.
I literally did all the above twice, and in the first version there's some annoying restlessness present ("I don't want to be sleepy and thirsty", "I should have slept more", "Why am I so stupid not to go to bed in time", "I have to finish this soon because I must do the cleaning" etc.). If I leave out the I, things lose their edge and there's some sort of acceptance of what is (or what needs to be done) and I feel more calm and relaxed. It's subtle, but it's there.

Hahahahahaha!! Yes, that "annoying restlessness" that we associate with "self", "I", "me".

the events did not really change, but their interpretation (description) [—STORY—] did, and therefore my reaction to them did change as well.

Yes.
ALL that changed was the Story.

So check it: when you wrote the first line, with "I", was an actual "I" present, doing sleepy, drinking, instructing self to do the cleaning?
Did the "I" depart the room in order for the second line to be accurately written?
Or has there never been an entity "I" which does the sleepy, drinking, instructing self to do the cleaning?
Don't sleepy, drinking, instructing self to do the cleaning simply happen? On automatic?

What would be the consequence of Life without an "I"? What would/could not happen without an "I" to do it? What does not simply happen without an "I" to direct, initiate, engage in, and complete it?

I guess it would be less stressful, based on my latest experiences. Also more fun with less needless worrying. Music writing would definitely happen (one of my former fears), I have absolutely no doubts about that. And just about anything else that's happening now, just more effortlessly (interpolating from my previous experiences from the last few days).

Would Life actually be more effortless? Or is it already effortless but your Story prevents you from noticing?

You are doing Very Good Work here, revenant!
Today I want you to keep noticing, to shift focus back and forth from thinking to sensation, Noticing the difference(s). And get out into Nature. Nature is a great place to notice how Life is happening — without a decider, a director, an analyzer.

love
Nona
love
Nona

[revenant]

Is there a Decider that takes over when a decision appears to be made? Or do things simply happen that later we attribute to our having made a decision?

Well, with focusing on a given sensation it was evident that the focusing just happened, but with decisions I don't see that very clearly (or at all), unfortunately.

Looking at the fingers in the air, is it known when they will tap? Can the thought “tap now” quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air?

Hmmm, it appeared that I influeced it when to tap and when to keep the fingers in the air. It was certainly possible to keep tapping while thinking "don't tap" or vice versa, but it seemed like that was a deliberate decision.

See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes such that the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining
in the air.

Well, I tried it, but it always appeared that I'm in control of the fingers. Then I just started drumming on the table and while sometimes I think I saw that I'm not thinking about how to drum, I also noticed that sometime I made a decision how to change the rhythm, speed and time signature of the drumming. So I'm not sure about this, maybe it's partly automatic but there's also a thinking/controlling aspect involved?

Okay, I have noticed now that my feet have been "drumming" on the ground for the last minute or so. I'm sure I haven't decided to do that! Hmmm.... That definitely just happened without my "consent"! I haven't even noticed it when it started.

Turn on a lamp. What is the experience?
Do you experience electricity running from the mains along a wire to the lamp, heating a filament and producing a bright light?
Or do you only experience a touch and bright light?

The distinction between the sensation of light and thoughts and theories about what produces that light is absolutely clear. I see that very clearly.

And was there a "me" before you were perceiving the room through the senses? Did a "me" actually leave the room so that you could notice the senses? When the clarity left, did a "me" come back into the room?

These are very good questions, and I can answer them in two ways. From memory, I don't remember seeing any "me" leaving or coming back. From a logical point of view, obviously I was alternating between two states: one in which the idea of "me" was supressed (it didn't exist, or just very faintly), and one when that idea came back.

If there is no "I", no "me", no "self" that is doing the actions — and so far you have not found one — then how can one be "responsible" for those actions? Can we be responsible for something over which we have no control?

One cannot, although this idea seems a bit alien to me, to be honest. I know what I'm writing now sort of contradicts my earlier sentence you reflected upon above, but still the thought that we humans are not much more than automatons makes me feel a bit uneasy. Or maybe I should have, it makes my "self" feel uneasy? But how can this statement make the "self" "feel" anything, if it doesn't exist?

What would be this "we" that must fight or do whatever?

Usually, I guess it means "we the people".

What allows you to see through the illusion that should/shouldn't, responsibility, mistakes are True?

To be honest, when I wrote that earlier reply I saw those things much more clearly; now it's just like a memory... Which, again, frustrates me. On some days I see these things clearly, on some other days it just doesn't happen that easily

Do you see it's an illusion? That only a Thought says the colour label is correct and not the experience of the colour?

Yes, with the color example that difference is still clear.

When a sound is heard, are there two separate sensations, one of the sound and one of the hearing of it?

No, there only the perception of sound, and I have never thought of this as two separate things either.

When a scent is noticed are the scent and the smelling of it separate? Or are they the same event? When you put something in the mouth and notice the flavour of it, is the object separate from the flavour? Or is there one single experience which we explain as object + sensation?

Similarly for all the other sensations, there is just sensation.

Can you recall when first learning English how you had to learn the
label "right" for one side and "left" for the other? Is there any object for which you did not, at some point, learn a label so that you could communicate with others about it?

Yes, I can remember that, but then I made a link between the word "left" with the Hungarian translation of it, which is "bal": the Hungarian version ends with the starting letter of the English word, that's how I learned to remember it. How I learned it in my native language, I have no memories of that. Or learning any other word which was formerly unknown to me, for the matter.

So check it: when you wrote the first line, with "I", was an actual "I" present, doing sleepy, drinking, instructing self to do the cleaning?
Did the "I" depart the room in order for the second line to be accurately written?
Or has there never been an entity "I" which does the sleepy, drinking, instructing self to do the cleaning?
Don't sleepy, drinking, instructing self to do the cleaning simply happen? On automatic?

Yes, that seems plausible that there was not an entity "I" that randomly goes to sleep then wakes up again and takes control of the situation, and that's congruent with what I actually experienced, from memory. Sadly, I cannot experience it now in this moment; I feel rather tired now and my experience is the more tired I am, the less hard the looking is and I just revert back to the old patterns.

Would Life actually be more effortless? Or is it already effortless but your Story prevents you from noticing?

You are doing Very Good Work here, revenant!

That's good to hear, but I feel (think?) that I had a very bad "looking day" today again, so I'll try to repeat exercises again tomorrow...

By the way, I had examined whether an "I" is required or not during doing various activities today, and haven't found any activity yet that required it. For a few moments I could observe programming happening while I was just seeing it happen. But those were very very short lived... Same experience during vacuuming, driving the car, preparing food etc. Hmm, and my leg is moving rhythmically again, without me giving permission??!... It must just be happening by itself, I have to admit that, but I think it's really quite weird :)

[nonaparry]

Hi revenant,

Well, with focusing on a given sensation it was evident that the focusing just happened, but with decisions I don't see that very clearly (or at all), unfortunately.
Hmmm, it appeared that I influeced it when to tap and when to keep the fingers in the air. It was certainly possible to keep tapping while thinking "don't tap" or vice versa, but it seemed like that was a deliberate decision.
sometime I made a decision how to change the rhythm, speed and time signature of the drumming

What exactly IS a decision? When precisely does it happen? HOW, precisely, does a decision come to be?
Locate the exact time and place where a "you" intervenes between one activity and another to "make a decision", and describe it in detail, please.

I just started drumming on the table and while sometimes I think I saw that I'm not thinking about how to drum

Are you under the impression that thinking about something is the same as controlling it?
I'm thinking about winning twenty million pounds. Yet I have no control over the lottery. If I had control over anything at all, would my experience of life ever be disappointing?

I have noticed now that my feet have been "drumming" on the ground for the last minute or so. I'm sure I haven't decided to do that! Hmmm.... That definitely just happened without my "consent"! I haven't even noticed it when it started.

Good to notice!! Does Life wait for your consent?? Or does it just happen, while you are making other plans?

The distinction between the sensation of light and thoughts and theories about what produces that light is absolutely clear. I see that very clearly.

Good!!

These are very good questions, and I can answer them in two ways. From memory, I don't remember seeing any "me" leaving or coming back. From a logical point of view, obviously I was alternating between two states: one in which the idea of "me" was supressed (it didn't exist, or just very faintly), and one when that idea came back.

It is necessary to abandon any idea that Life is actually logical, or that you can know Life through logic.
You have tried that for the last XX years and failed.
I can tell you why. It is because the illusion that you are, or have, a separate self that is in control of some personal slice of Life is created through the exact same thinking as you use for "logic".
You will never ever see the illusion with the same thinking that creates it in the first place.

If there is no "I", no "me", no "self" that is doing the actions — and so far you have not found one — then how can one be "responsible" for those actions? Can we be responsible for something over which we have no control?

One cannot, although this idea seems a bit alien to me, to be honest. I know what I'm writing now sort of contradicts my earlier sentence you reflected upon above, but still the thought that we humans are not much more than automatons makes me feel a bit uneasy. Or maybe I should have, it makes my "self" feel uneasy? But how can this statement make the "self" "feel" anything, if it doesn't exist?

Yes. The idea that humans are not responsible for a separate personal slice of Life is alien in western culture; *all* our early childhood learning is geared toward assuring us we are separate from Life and are in control of our actions and thoughts. We are told this from the time we are babies, so it seems it must be so. Our laws are predicated on the assumption of responsibility.
But here at LU we don't simply accept that this must be true; we Check our direct experience, our closest experience to a world outside of thought, to find out if it is true.
Does this make humans automatons?
Not in my experience!!
I am completely incapable of predicting in advance what any person on this planet is going to do! No clue!
If we were automatons, every single human action would be predictable.

What allows you to see through the illusion that should/shouldn't, responsibility, mistakes are True?

To be honest, when I wrote that earlier reply I saw those things much more clearly; now it's just like a memory... Which, again, frustrates me. On some days I see these things clearly, on some other days it just doesn't happen that easily

Are you ever unaware that Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and Batman are fictions? Are there days when you think they may be Real?

Do you see it's an illusion? That only a Thought says the colour label is correct and not the experience of the colour?

Yes, with the color example that difference is still clear.

Good!

When a sound is heard, are there two separate sensations, one of the sound and one of the hearing of it?

No, there only the perception of sound, and I have never thought of this as two separate things either.

Good!

Similarly for all the other sensations, there is just sensation.

YES!!!
So if there is *only* sensation, and no see-er, hear-er, smell-er, taste-er, touch-er, what exactly is the separate self you imagined you had or were?

Yes, that seems plausible that there was not an entity "I" that randomly goes to sleep then wakes up again and takes control of the situation, and that's congruent with what I actually experienced, from memory.

We are not looking for plausibility here; that is the realm of Thinking! We are looking for a concrete entity "I" which is responsible for the actions of revenant!

Sadly, I cannot experience it now in this moment; I feel rather tired now and my experience is the more tired I am, the less hard the looking is and I just revert back to the old patterns.

Tiredness will often result in reversion to old patterns. But when you are tired, do you imagine Santa Claus is Real? Or is the fact that Santa is fiction known even when old patterns are reverted to?

I had examined whether an "I" is required or not during doing various activities today, and haven't found any activity yet that required it. For a few moments I could observe programming happening while I was just seeing it happen. But those were very very short lived... Same experience during vacuuming, driving the car, preparing food etc. Hmm, and my leg is moving rhythmically again, without me giving permission??!... It must just be happening by itself, I have to admit that, but I think it's really quite weird :)

EXCELLENT!!!
This noticing whether an "I" is required in everyday Life is VERY important!! Keep LOOKing!
If everything is happening on automatic, what exactly is the "I" in "I am programming", "I am vacuuming", etc., referring to ?

love
Nona

[revenant]

What exactly IS a decision? When precisely does it happen? HOW, precisely, does a decision come to be?
Locate the exact time and place where a "you" intervenes between one activity
and another to "make a decision", and describe it in detail, please.

Okay, I tried focusing on the decision stuff yesterday and today, but the outcome was quite unexpected, to say the least. I had the whole thread printed out with me, so I re-did the tapping exercise because I was struggling with that one whenever I attempted it previously.

Let me quote the full text of the exercise again:

Well check it out! Is there a Decider that takes over when a decision appears to be made? Or do things simply happen that later we attribute to our having made a decision? The thought process is "Of course I made the decision, how else would the event have occurred?" But the thought process is not a picture of reality!
Lets have a closer look.
Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers positioned ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.
Looking at the fingers in the air, is it known when they will tap? Can the thought “tap now” quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air?
See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it
comes such that the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to
tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining
in the air.

Okay, what I noticed first was quite suprising; this was the first time I actually understood the last two sentences ("See if you can notice..."). It's not an English problem, just that the individual words put together just didn't make sense to me for some reason, even though I had read it like 8-10 times... Now I had to read it a couple of more times again, very slowly, very carefully, but finally the instructions made sense! Hmm, strange.

Then during the exercise when I attempted to observe how I am controlling my tapping hand, I grew increasingly frustrated. I started feeling very uncomfortable after a few minutes but kept doing it. Then after a while I became irritated and stopped and went back to work. Now, in the rest of the afternoon the frustration just grew and grew even when I was not doing the exercise at all, and I got into a quite bad and depressed mood. Then I started thinking about it that this all doesn't make sense, of course I am moving my hand, who else, this is all insanity, all the exercises are just brainwashing etc etc etc. My thought just went around in circles. Then I started feeling inadequate because I was not able to do such a simple exercise that others were apparently capable of doing (all the people who went through this whole process successfully before me). So the frustration grew and grew, then it became irritation, then anger, and then I was just furious, saying to myself "why am I even doing this stupid thing? I felt much better without it, why am torturing myself with such a thing?". I also frequently thought that I was given something that was impossible to solve, illogical and didn't make any sense, so that is why I must have felt frustrated. I know what you're going to say, that I should not think about it and should not use logic, but when I remembered you mentioning that, I just became even more furious. "Not to think and not to use logic, what a nonsense!", thoughts like that appeared. Looking back, I somehow got into a circular thinking mode and my anger and frustration just grew and grew, I simply could not come out of it. In the end, I felt intense hostility towards the whole liberation thing, managed to quarrel a bit with my wife in the evening (apparently, I was rather unbearable) and then went to bed basically in the same tense and frustrated state.

Now the other interesting thing, I had a weird nightmarish dream that night about a sort of a museum where zombies are exhibited. But it was actually not a real museum, but a trap! It was just a facade; the zombies lured the humans in for the show then converted them into zombies too! Well, nice, I thought in the morning, I must have some unconscious fears about the whole thing then... I thought I had managed to get rid of the fears, but this proved it wrong.

Anyway, in the morning I felt okay, so today I attempted the whole thing again during my lunchbreak, because I hate to admit defeat. The exercise seemed to be interesting and rather harmless at first, but I became mildly annoyed soon because I just felt as stuck as yesterday; I was just unable to see anything at all. I was tapping with my fingers when I wanted to, and I was not tapping when I did not want to, and that was the end of it. Okay, back to work. A bit later I tried it a few more times at my desk, and made a slightly more interesting discovery. In my experience, the thoughts appeared seemingly out of nowhere, giving ideas on how to tap, but in my experience I was the initiator of the whole tapping thing and I was the one who accepted or rejected a given tapping idea suggested by the thoughts. Which is also logical (I know...) otherwise I would be instantly doing every stupid thing that ever crosses my mind. Clearly, there was a filtering mechanism which I could not observe very clearly, but I felt that whenever a particular thought about tapping arose, I had the option to either veto it, act upon it, "ask" for another thought (like a roulette machine) or stop the whole tapping business altogether. And of course, I initiated the whole tapping process and ordered the thoughts to give me ideas. But I have to admint, when asked for another thought, the thoughts that came were quite surprising and random. This is how it worked in my experience:

Thought: "Okay, let's tap an SOS signal!"
<Decider approves, hand tapping SOS signal>

Thought: "Now do it faster."
<Decider rejects thought, hand keeps tapping at the same speed>

Thought: "What about alternating with the middle and index fingers now?"
<Decider approves, hand does what the thought suggested>

...

Okay, so I drew the conclusion that this must be a more accurate model than just believing in everything happening by itself automatically... but overall I was still unsatisfied with the results. But at least it was apparent that ultimately I still had the control to override what my thoughts just happened to suggest in a given moment.

And then all hell broke loose...

Gradually (but quickly) all the irritation, frustration and anger came back
from yesterday! I won't bore you with the details, the bottom line is that it all culminated rapidly in feelings of intense aggression and hatred towards basically everything (including myself, I think). The exercise must have triggered something because I got into this terrible terrible state that I rarely get into. I felt physically tense with this uncomfortable sensation in my chest that you feel after some terrible draining arguing that went on for hours. I just sensed something grewing inside me, like an imminent explosion, and an irresistable urge to just destroy things, physically. Like to literally smash them! (As a sidenote, I am a rather quiet and reserved person almost always, this is not typical of me at all, I almost never raise my voice even.) I got so angry and furious that I basically could not read properly what was on my screen, I struggled to perform even the most basic tasks without making mistakes after mistakes. Almost total loss of ability to concentrate and this lasted for a few hours. I felt intense irritation and hatred towards the whole liberation concept again and at some point I thought that either I am completely insane, or they are! I still thought there was a possibility that it is actually me who is completely abnormal, but I firmly believed that either group of people must be very very very wrong!

So I was there in this intense state of unease that appeared to be the complete opposite of peace and being relaxed and I was wondering again: why the hell am I doing something that makes me feel worse than I normally feel? Okay, I still had a memory that during some of the exercises I actually felt quite good (better than average), but that was just like words without much meaning in that state. Still, it started bothering me why I couldn't figure out why this was all happening to me and why I could not control it. There must be something that irritated me so much, but sadly it's completely invisible to me! I started analysing it and realised that very few people are capable to annoy and irritate me so much (basically just my parents, especially my mother). Another classic scenario when I feel such an intense frustration is when I'm trying to convince some religious zealot about something that contradicts their beliefs. Ah! That gave me some clue, that maybe it s I who is trying to convince myself about something that is frustrating me? (hey, I'm gonna out of reflexive pronouns quickly...) Although which part of me is sane, which is insane, and which is trying to convince the other about what exactly is basically a total mystery (although I have a few theories, as always).

Anyway, it's 9pm now; this whole fiasco started around 1pm and it culminated around 4-5pm, so I'm relatively okay now. Although it was more intense than yesterday, I died down quicker (and the hatred is completely gone now, fortunately). But I am clueless where to go from here. Clearly, I am stuck at this observing the decisions thing, and I'm really bad, apparently. Something must be blocking me; I feel like I've hit a concrete wall and the more I"m banging my head against it, the more frustrated and angry I become. I really don't have much motivation to this exercise again and again and be in that awful state every day from now. Yet, I somehow also feel that this is blocking my progress. Unless, of course, the whole liberation thing is not "real", because until I have experienced it, it simply doesn't exist for me, right? I am also quite averse to the idea of lack of free will, because it gets me into infinitely recursive circular thinking that slightly drives me mad... Is it possible to get the free will concept out of the picture completely and do the liberation without that? It would be so much easier if I didn't have to deal with that as well...

So please, can you suggest alternative exercises to become aware of the thing that's blocking me, so I can somehow overcome it? Or suggest any other technique how to deal with this "brick wall" thing because I don't know what to do? I did not even get into your other questions at all as I have found this whole thing very demotivating and I think I must overcome this obstacle somehow first before progressing further with anything else.

Hopefully I am not the first who has encoutered such problems... I also hope you don't take any of this personally; I really appreciate you taking the time to write such detailed instructions to me (well, at least when I'm not in ultra-angry mode... :)).

[nonaparry]

Dear revenant,

The only way to check for actual control is to check for it. I get that you believe you have control in spite of the occasions on which you have noticed you don't have. My goal is not to make you angry, but to make you LOOK. We can come back to this exercise later.

What would happen if you noticed you have no control over actions in the way you think you have? That events happen without direction from a Decider? That "decisions" are how the mind explains the events that occur.
Previously you have expressed some concern over viewing yourself as an automaton. But is that honestly the only possibility if decisions actually happen without a Decider? If Life happens on automatic, what do you perceive is a problem with that?

Do you have control over thoughts? Can you stop a thought half-way? Or prevent certain thoughts from arising?

How about the body — do you have control over the heart beating? the lungs breathing? the blood carrying oxygen and nutrients through the veins, arteries and capillaries? Can you control the liver? the spleen? the gall bladder? Can you control what the senses perceive?

Think of a number between 1 and 100.
Got it?
Now tell me: did you decide which number to choose? Or did a number simply come into your thoughts? How exactly did that work?

love
Nona

[revenant]

What would happen if you noticed you have no control over actions in the way you think you have? That events happen without direction from a Decider?

I guess I would feel rather powerless. Even if all control was an illusion, I think I would rather prefer that illusion over absolutely nothing at all. Also, most of my current explanations for how things work would be probably rendered invalid, which is not a very nice prospect either. I mean, even now I think we don't have much control over most things at all, like what happens in the world, in other people's minds, the weather etc, so it's comforting to have at least that tiny bit of control left.

It's weird because I have a tendency to go with the flow and not be terribly active about changing things... But at the same time, if things started going really wrong, I think I'd have the option not to go with the flow anymore (even if it was less pleasant than just being passive) and do something about it. I'm guessing the possibility of that option would go away and I would feel completely powerless if I realized I had no control over anything? It's all about how it makes me feel, right? And then I would have no control to make the bad feeling go away either...

Previously you have expressed some concern over viewing yourself as an automaton. But is that honestly the only possibility if decisions actually happen without a Decider? If Life happens on automatic, what do you perceive is a problem with that?

The funny thing is if I think logically about it, it sort of makes sense that people are basically just conditioned automatons, products of their environments. But I find that thought quite demotivating and depressing, so I prefer not to keep pondering on that, I guess.

Like when I decided to sit down and meditate to make life better, that felt like a decision I made to improve myself. That felt good, even though meditation sometimes is frustrating, but still it felt good because I thought I made an effort to improve my life.

Do you have control over thoughts? Can you stop a thought half-way? Or prevent certain thoughts from arising?

Yes and no. They just come, that's true, but then there are techniques how to ignore or "override" them by doing certain activities. Basically, immersing yourself in an activity that required focus seems to work fine most of the time (reading, watchin movies, programming, playing games, writing music etc).

How about the body — do you have control over the heart beating? the lungs breathing? the blood carrying oxygen and nutrients through the veins, arteries and capillaries? Can you control the liver? the spleen? the gall bladder? Can you control what the senses perceive?

No, I'm unaware of most of those bodily functions. But if I'm upset and try to focus on my breathing, usually that helps, so in some way I have a very little influence over the body, I'm guessing. Although I have to admint, 99% of the time (or more) I'm completely unware of my body functioning.

Think of a number between 1 and 100. Got it? Now tell me: did you decide which number to choose? Or did a number simply come into your thoughts? How exactly did that work?

The number has just appeared. Tried it a few times and funnily enough a few times it was wrong and gave me a number greater than 100... It is interesting, but that's nothing new; that's how creativity usually works -- thoughts and ideas just keep poping seemingly out of nowhere at random. It's a mystery how it works and never really analysed it; just accepted that it's possible to get into that state.

[nonaparry]

revenant, some people are happier with their beliefs about having control and making decisions. You may be one of them. I don't want to take that from you if it will make you feel unhappy.

It is not necessary for you see what your partner has seen, particularly if your beliefs are working for you.

I suggest we abandon this inquiry.

love
Nona

[revenant]

Hi Nona

Something happened after receiving your reply today. I saw clearly what has been happening in the last week or so; the hand raising exercise had triggered something that resulted in the resistance and anger, and ultimately a decision to give up the whole thing altogether and actively undermine the whole process. So it became a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy with every reply I gave you since then. I understand that you see no point in prolonging that kind of "discussion".

Paradoxically, now that the anger is gone, I'm feeling perseverant to carry on. I have to admit that after the first week I have not really put myself to this, so I will go through our conversation again from the beginning and do the looking exercises on my own again.

I have also found a book on the no-self topic which I think I will read ("Butterflies Are Free to Fly"), although I realise that will not help with the looking itself at all. But what I think I will get out of it is a) either to weaken the intellectual resistance further by reading about these concepts, or b) realise that just reading about it will get me nowhere.

I would like to ask, would you consider continuing guiding me if I managed to make a breakthrough in the last few exercises I've been stuck at? Regardless of your answer, thanks for helping and spending time on me so far.

Cheers
revenant

[nonaparry]

Dear revenant,

Of course I will continue to guide you — Good for you that you have admitted to yourself that you had not really worked at this.

My questions and the exercises are not designed to elicit "correct" answers; they are designed to provoke inquiry.
An open mind and a willingness to explore the most seemingly "dangerous" depths of mind's jungle are your best tools for this job.
The anger you experienced is a protective reaction: you were getting "too close" to seeing something you were not prepared to see, so you became angry to avoid looking at it. This is good news! You were getting uncomfortably close to something...

Looking forward to working with you,
love
Nona

[revenant]

Hi Nona

Let me give you an update on a significant breakthrough I managed to make today. I'm not expecting an answer from you this time as I think I'm on the right track finally. Just wanted to keep you up to date because I thought you might be interested and also it's possible that I will need further help later on. I consider this partly as a sort of a diary entry as well that I can read later myself. And who knows, maybe someone who will randomly stumble upon this might even find it enlightening (no pun intended).

I just browsed the forum randomly yesterday and today and read four threads from beginning to end (one of them was a failed experiment, the rest ended successfully). This helped a lot, as I realised that these people (all of them very sceptical of the whole thing) encountered almost exactly the same problems as I have, yet managed to overcome them in the end. There was a thinking/conceptualising phase where they failed to get how to look, then came the circular logic thing, trying to explain the experience in rational terms which resulted in frustration, anger and a wish to give up. This was all very familiar to me.

I also noticed that after "it" happened to them, their writing style had changed dramatically. "It would be impossible for me to fake this" – that thought came when reading their "liberated" lines.

The other guides (neeeel and Ilona) also had a different approach (not better or worse, just different) which illuminated the topic from a slightly different angle. There was a sentence from neeeel which hit me, in a very good way: "In this process, nothing is destroyed, got rid of, or removed." So if there's nothing to lose, why don't I just go along without thinking and explaining things? Why not just follow the "rules", just accept them? I don't care if it's the "truth" or if it isn't, I really don't care what this is, I'm just very curious to experience it! Then I can still decide later if it's bullshit or not. This thought that nothing can go wrong and nothing gets lost or destroyed gave a sense of safety that has completely calmed my mind at last. Now I can go and do whatever is required to get the experience (or realisation, whatever we call it)!

Finally, it has dawned on me that THESE INSTRUCTIONS HAVE TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!!! LOOKing is NOT a metaphor!!!! I need to physically try to look for the self with the senses (and notice thoughts too, of course)! After this I realised that reading that book ("Butterflies Are Free to Fly"), or any other book on this topic, for the matter, could never help me with this! It is just another excuse for delaying things. It's like trying to "learn" how a certain food tastes by reading about it, and then fabricating theories about "taste" based on that intellectual knowledge!

Then I also read a blog post from Ilona called "The Trick of Language", which was basically about the exercise I did earlier when I had to leave out the "I" while writing a 10-minute report. This gave me an idea to consciously create a narrative in my head that went like: "Looking out of the window", "Feeling the cold of the air conditioning", "Noticing the trees", "Thoughts about learning for the exam on Thursday" etc etc.

I kept doing this all day long, whenever I could at work (even in meetings). I just tried doing lots of the previous questions as they appeared in my mind, seemingly "randomly" ("Who is controlling this body?", "Where is the controller?", "Can I see/find the controller in this room?", "Can I hear the controller in this room?", "Is there a controller required for 'me' to function?", "Can a decision maker be detected who is responsible for the actions "I" am making just now?"). It always slipped away like a fish from my hands, but I didn't care, just kept looking. Sometime there was a subtle calmness, no trace of anger this time at all. Sometime the movie watching feeling came back a bit, especially when I was doing stuff in the kitchen. The labelling got noticed fairly often, sometimes the arising of thoughts too, and there was an important realisation, namely the ability to distinguish between sensation of what IS there and imagination that comes in form of thoughts—that distinction became very clear!

(Note: I started writing everything below in "normal" English, but after a few sentences there were simply so many "I"s in the sentences that it felt very artificial and cumbersome to me to write that way, so I went and rewrote them in passive. It seemed much more natural and easier to convey the experience from memory that way, so I kept using the passive form... And now, using the "I" form again, it feels like there is some "indirectness" there... it's a very different feeling.)

This continued on the way home; and at the train station there was another realisation! Whenever I noticed a thought, and then another thought saying "This was a thought and I'm not going to follow it, rather just focus on the sensations!", well, this was a thought that just came out of nowhere as well! The thought noticing a thought just appearing was a thought just appearing too! There was a compulsion to logically analyse this (infinite recursion, again), but there was a thought that said "STOP!"—and the realisation this stop-thought came automatically too, but the chain stopped there.

On the train, just practicing the looking out of the window, just focusing on the sensations and noticing whatever the senses can notice. There was a realisation that the sensations cannot be stopped or paused, they are just there, coming. Nothing needs to be done, they just come... Feelings of being a child again... Realising that this is a thought. Looking out of the window, a thought appearing about something, realising that some visual triggered it, realising the thought of triggering was a thought that just appeared... Then noticing that the sensation of "closed-ness" in the chest that was there all last week is gone. There was a sensation of "openness" in the chest! Focusing on it... sensation getting stronger... feeling compulsion to smile... starting to smile, starting to cry a bit... maybe even laughing but not too loud... realising people would think this person is insane... realising this is a thought and continuing smiling. A sensation of sexual energy from the groin area going upwards into the chest which is now open... Smiling, then thinking about what has just happened. The sensations vanishing, feelings of disappointment, realising this is a thought, thought to replace the word "thought" with the German word "Hund" when a thought is "caught". Realising the sensation cannot be "held", it comes and goes, and that's alright. Wanting to hold on to it is what makes it go away. Just looking, sensing and noticing again. This whole process repeating itself FOUR TIMES in the course of a 30 minute train journey: sexual energy going upward, smiling/crying, opening of the chest, sensation vanishing, attempting to hold on to it and realising this is a thought... realising this cannot go away, it is always there. Noticing that the sensations of cold metal on the hand, on the head leaning against the windows feel SO GOOD, closing the eyes and the sensation is still there, opening the eyes and noticing that seeing the hand is SUPERIMPOSED on the sensation in the hand! They are separate and together create the illusion! Like when the sound and the image in the movie are slightly out of sync and the illusion breaks; it's apparent that there's separate image and sound and the reality of the movie is an illusion. Experimenting with other bodily sensations, poking the leg, touching the glass etc. Experimenting with slight pain, pinching the arm and noticing that there's no pain, just a sensation which is not painful at all, just a sensation. Pinching the arm harder, there is just sensation, it isn't bad or painful. This got to the point that suddenly the nostrils expanded and there was a rush of adrenaline, thought that this must have been the body's reaction of interpreting the pinch as physical danger. Realising this was a thought. Watching the hand move, and for some seconds wondering how it just moves, seemingly just automatically... but this wasn't very strong, but something was still there... Most importantly, absolutely no sensations of anger and frustration when watching the hand, like before! On the way out of the station noticing that walking is just happening, smiling again...

So this is it, in a nutshell :) Writing about it in the passive style helped me get a little bit into that relaxed state again, although it did not trigger any of it again, I have to add. I realise (by thinking about what you told me earlier) that this state is not liberation; this is just a byproduct of looking which sometimes is there, sometimes isn't. It is not to be pursued. Nonetheless, this knowledge does not make it any less enjoyable when it happens.

Oh, one more thing. In the morning when going to work, I also did the hearing exercise, just closing the eyes and focusing on sound. Nothing special happened first, but then there was a realisation that when the eyes are closed, the people are not actually there; just a thought (a memory) tells that they are there! This was not merely an intellectual realisation but something more visceral: by closing and opening the eyes the people and the train and the whole surrounding environment literally seemed to pop in and out of existence! There was a realisation that going by pure sensation, they don't exist with eyes closed; just a thought/memory construct of them "keeps them alive".

That's for today, tomorrow I will do the same all over again and venture maybe a little further! :) I am excited and curious of where this will lead! :)

[nonaparry]

Hi revenant,

I'm so glad you are finding other threads helpful. Each guide has a slightly different approach, but we all point to the same thing: the non-existence of a separate entity "self" believed to be in control of a personal slice of Life.

"In this process, nothing is destroyed, got rid of, or removed."

That is correct. Some people imagine we destroy the self, or get rid of it; but there never was such an entity as a "self", so nothing to get rid of or destroy!
The biggest surprise some people have is realising that Life has always happened "on automatic" — they just didn't notice.

LOOKing is NOT a metaphor!!!! I need to physically try to look for the self with the senses (and notice thoughts too, of course)!

Correct! Perhaps I was not sufficiently specific about this?

I realised that reading that book ("Butterflies Are Free to Fly"), or any other book on this topic, for the matter, could never help me with this! It is just another excuse for delaying things. It's like trying to "learn" how a certain food tastes by reading about it, and then fabricating theories about "taste" based on that intellectual knowledge!

Good analogy!

there was an important realisation, namely the ability to distinguish between sensation of what IS there and imagination that comes in form of thoughts—that distinction became very clear!

Excellent!! This is an important skill!

this was a thought that just came out of nowhere as well! The thought noticing a thought just appearing was a thought just appearing too! There was a compulsion to logically analyse this (infinite recursion, again), but there was a thought that said "STOP!"—and the realisation this stop-thought came automatically too

Good to notice!! Thoughts arise, and pass, all automatically, even the thoughts that tell us another thought is true or false, important or useless.

the sensations cannot be stopped or paused, they are just there, coming. Nothing needs to be done, they just come...

Yes, indeed! Sensations are always present; thus Direct Experience is nothing special — it's not some special State you have to be in. Direct Experience is simply noticing the five senses.

opening the eyes and noticing that seeing the hand is SUPERIMPOSED on the sensation in the hand!

YES! Good work!

Like when the sound and the image in the movie are slightly out of sync and the illusion breaks; it's apparent that there's separate image and sound and the reality of the movie is an illusion.

Yes; and if you pay close attention, you can notice the holes in your experience which are usually covered over by thought, trying to make experience seem seamless like a well-crafted movie.

Experimenting with slight pain, pinching the arm and noticing that there's no pain, just a sensation which is not painful at all, just a sensation. Pinching the arm harder, there is just sensation, it isn't bad or painful.

Fantastic!! "Pain" and "pleasure" are labels applied to sensation after it has been judged "bad" or "good". The sensation is not inherently painful or pleasurable; those are judgments.

Watching the hand move, and for some seconds wondering how it just moves, seemingly just automatically...

YES!!!

On the way out of the station noticing that walking is just happening

YES! Is there any time at all when Life is not "just happening"??

there was a realisation that when the eyes are closed, the people are not actually there; just a thought (a memory) tells that they are there! This was not merely an intellectual realisation but something more visceral: by closing and opening the eyes the people and the train and the whole surrounding environment literally seemed to pop in and out of existence! There was a realisation that going by pure sensation, they don't exist with eyes closed; just a thought/memory construct of them "keeps them alive".

YES!!! Yes yes yes!!
You are paying attention to what you are actually experiencing instead of to your thoughts about what you are experiencing. Good work!!

I am delighted to read this!
And what is your current experience of control?

love
Nona

[revenant]

Hi Nona

Thanks for the reassurance :) I'm just giving a quick update now, diary style again, otherwise I'll forget all this by tomorrow... I'll answer your questions properly tomorrow.

I have noticed quite a few subtle changes yesterday and today. Not as dramatic as the experience from Monday, but still noticeable and surprising in their subtle way.

That that "openness" in the chest is actually there quite often... It comes and goes, like breathing, and if the focus is on it, it grows stronger. Thoughts about wanting it to be there all the time are almost gone, because it comes and goes anyway, automatically.

I couldn't sleep very well yesterday, probably because of the heat wave we're having, so I was quite tired today, but something was different. There was no identification with the tiredness. It did not cause "mental suffering", it was just an experience or state that was noticed, but that was it. Less alertness, but no thoughts like "this shouldn't be happening", "I should be more alert", "why do I have to wake up so early and come to work", "this is so terrible" etc. Just noticing the lower level of alertness, and that was the end of it. Every state is interesting, and although there's preference for certain states, it's not the end of the world if a non-preferred one is happening.

Less identification with problems. Actually, I noticed that only thoughts can make a "problem" out of something happening. These thoughts were coming from time to time, of course, but there was not attachment to them, just letting them pass, like clouds on the sky. Coming, goin. Everything got sorted out, rather peacefully, without much drama.

A tendency to be friendlier to people. People who were labelled irritating or annoying previously now seemed rather harmless, even likeable. Actually, almost everybody seems rather likeable :) Surprisingly, also a tendency to be more relaxed about being correct or to do things according to an imaginary "standard". I still told my opinion about things, but didn't really care what happened after that, if those ideas got rejected or approved.

I noticed that when I'm really focusing on a thought-based activity (learning, solving a programming problem), it is very easy to get lost in "thought land", and I prefer not to be there but rather in observing mode. This leads to another thing; if not in observing mode, these subtle effects seem to a be bit "lost". Sometimes worrying thoughts came suggesting that a few days ago "I had it", and now "I've lost it". Then another thought came that this is bizarre, "I" cannot have it, no one can "have it", it's just there :)

I realised that reading the guidings on Ilona's blog is a rather good way to nudge me out of thinking mode and back into observing mode. Especially the questions seemed to be the most useful. Strangely, when reading guide's words, very often I just can't stop nodding and smiling :) Actually, quite often when I'm observing mode I'm just smiling for "no good reason" :)

Things in general have lost their "edge". Everything seems to be easy. Worrying about the "future" or what might happen to "me", what others could think of "me" have become very very minimal. Realising that it's actually impossible to tell which country I am in, or what day or month or year it is without memories and thoughts about it.

Several time today there was just observing what various body parts are doing... it's rather amusing, bit like watching the movie. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes more obvious. There was a moment when the hand was scratching the head, a noticing of the thought trying to "hijack" the movement of the hand and assert that "it" (the thought) was controlling it. It was not taken seriously :)

Paradoxically, there's also less inclination to write about these findings/experiences...

[revenant]

One more thing: it became apparent how tense and lost in their thoughts most people are. Especially when trying to look them in the eye, there's a kind of stiffness and anxiousness, like they are attempting to defeat a perceived threat or something...

[revenant]

Correct! Perhaps I was not sufficiently specific about this?

I think the problem was that I confused looking with thinking. I think my rationalising went like this: the function of the senses is to inform "me" about the external world, and obviously "me" cannot be external to my body, therefore this is meaningless. And I'm not allowed to think about it either, so then what shall I do? Basically I was just stuck.

I think the light bulb moment happened when I read neeeels words, which were something like this (from memory): "How does the self inform you about something? Does it leave you a note? Does it signal with flashing lights? Does it whisper into your ear?" So that was the "Aha!" moment, that I can actually only notice thoughts about the "I" but they cannot be sensed.

Is there any time at all when Life is not "just happening"??

Well, when something triggers anxiety or worry, for a moment it seems that something very much needs to be done. But usually these thoughts pass quickly. Also, when I'm doing a primarily thinking based activity (basically, when I'm at work), it is easy to get a bit lost in thought from time to time, and then it can seem that things require some effort. But fortunately, when there's a little break in the activity and I "come to my senses" again, so to speak, there's a funny sensation as if I woke up from a dream, and there's a preference for the observing/sensing state as opposed to the thinking state. So getting lost in thought is less permament now and even when it happens, its grip has weakened.

And what is your current experience of control?

This morning, when I was observing my morning activities, I noticed that many of the thoughts were triggered by some sensori stimuli (such as noticing an object), and then those thoughts would trigger further thoughts in turn. Then these thoughts can give "ideas" about what actual physical action to take next and that action would result in further stimuli. Stimuli, thought, action, thought, action, stimuli, thought and so on, all the way down! Then these stimuli-thought-action clusters can imprint further stimuli-thought and thought-to-thought connections or conditionings in the organism (commonly labeled as "learning" or "experience"). It is as if a very complex fabric was being weaved in every moment, every thread in relation with some other thread... Oh, and there's a sneaky little thought that hops on board about midway (without a valid ticket) and shouts: "Hey, it was MY decision to do all this stuff!" I actually managed to spot it trying to get a free ride on some occasions while I was noticing the unfolding of events.

I also had a funny thought that if sensory stimuli and thoughts suddenly all stopped, the body would just collapse and lie motionless on the ground, only the basic bodily functions working.

Now, if I started theorising about how all this could be possible, thoughts noticing thoughts noticing thoughts noticing thoughts noticing thoughts... then I get fairly confused! So should I not think about it? Is it OK to have thoughts like this? Okay, the moment I put this down I realised these are rather meaningless questions that actually contain the answers within themselves... If the thought comes, then the thought comes. If that results in confusion, then there is confusion.

Some more subtle things from today's happenings... I needed to sort out some legal issues today about my citizenship and everything went absolutely smoothly. So smoothly, that I felt a bit disappointed! "It should NOT have been that easy!" — a thought suggested with dissatisfaction. Conversely, there were no feelings of euphoria after sorting out the issues. No, "yeah, I made it!", nothing. Could it be that I am missing that rollercoaster ride, that contraction/release cycle? Maybe there is a conditioning that misses the ceasing of contraction after sorting a perceived problem out? As if things have become "flatter" with less emotional "swinging" around, if that makes sense. It is peaceful but also something seems to be lacking a bit. Could it be the withdrawal symptoms of drama?

Also, I noticed that something is gone, I cannot find it. I don't feel as euphoric today as on Monday, but some deep feeling that, as far as I can tell, has always been there, seems to be gone. No trace of it. This used to be some deep feeling of inadequacy mixed with dissatisfaction and wanting something more, a need (or rather compulsion) to be the best and thoughts like "why is this happening to me", "I deserve better", "it is not just that this is happening to me". Now that I re-read these sentences, I am smiling. From memory, I was so sure that I will never get rid of this feeling of lacking something, that I will have this until the day I die. I wanted to get rid of it very much but whatever I did, it always came back (not that I tried too hard to get rid of it, to be completely honest... but keeping my mind occupied with something always helped). But now that I cannot find it, there is also some slight saddness... But then, at the same time, I am also so glad it is gone. To be honest, this is all quite disorienting, and there is a thought that constantly rises up: "What now?"

Re-read the previous paragraph again, and just realised that previously I was so sure that this feeling or thought was an integral part of "me", some characteristic that defines me as a person on a very deep level. Could it be that it was the "I" that was causing this feeling of lacking, and now that it's gone (or weakened), that causes some strange feelings/thoughts of sadness?

Also, I noticed that I am much more communicative with people, and they also seem to be more willing to communicate with me. That state of not being able to connect to others seems to be almost gone. I also don't worry much about what I say; if it might appear stupid or if I am maybe wrong... Of course, the thought comes up sometime, but I don't take it too seriously and just say it anyway. So yes, there is more freedom when interacting with others. Yet, I find it hard to shift the focus from thoughts to sensations when there are people around.

Overall, I think I should continue observing the control thing and look for the "I", because I suspect I haven't fully seen through it that the "I" does not exist. Logically, it is quite clear, but I think the seeing is still lacking.

One more thing, I noticed that when I'm reading the words of a liberated person, even if just for a few minutes, it becomes quite easy to become more "liberated" after that, if that make sense. But if half a day goes by without reading such words, the state can get lost a bit... Is this normal? It is a bit as if there was a need to keep it alive by reminding myself of it.