Hi,Vivi!
I think DE is in a way more real than anything else. If something happens in DE, it happens, period.
Exactly! Look in DE if you can find anything that is not experience. If the experience is happening now, it means it is experienced now. If it happened 'yesterday' it isn't direct. The direct experience in that case will be the thoughts of what was experienced yesterday. The thought content will not be direct experience, it can not be anything other than thoughts about having an experience. A story.
Sounds very reasonable, I agree.
BUT if I can’t find thing X in DE, I can’t draw the conclusion that X doesn’t exist. My present DE doesn’t contain a cat. But I still think it’s more reasonable to assume that cats exist than that they don’t.
You can draw the conclusion that it isn't experienced right now. Right?
Yes.
Thoughts of a cat is experienced, but the cat is not. and experience is all you have. Isn't it? Look again if you can find something that is not experience.
I think you are saying that in my present DE there indeed are no cats and of course I agree. But my point was that the conclusion “no cats in my present DE” => “no cats in whole world” is invalid.
To say right now that Obama exists, is an assumption. You don't KNOW right now. Thoughts tell that of course he does, you just saw him on Television. BUT it is not KNOWN, it is assumed.
Here we look for what is KNOWN. That can only be what is direct experienced.
Let’s check if I have understood you right. Are you saying that there are no thoughts that are SURELY true? Are you saying that the existence of lions is also a bit uncertain because they may all be dead because of some catastrophe a second ago? In fact I agree with you here at least to some point. Yes, all thoughts are stories and yes, best to take all of them with a grain of salt. But I think stories differ in reliability! 2+2=4 is a very different story compared to 2+2=3. “Copenhagen is the capital of Denmark” is much better than “Copenhagen is the capital of Japan”.
I’ll think the control issues tomorrow. Good night!
Sakari
A thread with dreamer
Re: A thread with dreamer
when you control the issues you might as well look at 'the world' what is that exactly in direct experience? Can it be found as anything other than thoughts about a world?
;) Greetings Vivi
;) Greetings Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi, Vivi!
Here we go again:
Is the process of controlling automatic, happening without a you in control?
This kind of question is typically posed in scifi movies to an evil computer to drive it crazy! Love it!
Hmm, if there is control, it happens automatically without my effort – in other words, I don’t decide if I use control here but not there.
You are not the thinker - how can you be controlling?
An excellent question. In the realm of DE I can’t. But there is still a question open: If something doesn’t exist in DE, can it exist elsewhere or can it be a part of DE later?
How exactly does the separate I control?
This is difficult. In DE there is no separate I. I can’t give a DE based answer. In fact I can’t give you ANY answer. But don’t get me wrong – I am nor claiming I am in control but there is a strong sense telling so.
What happens if you follow controlling back to its origin, in direct experience?
In DE it looks like control = bunch of thoughts of the type “shall I do this or that”
Other thoughts of the type “what follows if I do this or that”
More thoughts of the type “how it feels to do this or that? Which is easier? How much do I like the outcome of doing this or that”, in other words thoughts about estimated feelings and emotions caused by different courses of action.
And finally, weighing the results and choosing the course of action that produces greatest pleasure and least trouble in the long run - in theory. In real life replace “in the long run” with “for next couple of” and add “years”, “months”, “weeks”, “days” or “hours” depending on the person and the circumstances.:)
For some reason executing this last phase – choosing the action – feels most like being in control. Let’s look a bit closer: I come home terribly thirsty and now I have 2 courses of action: Drink something immediately or wait. Let’s assume there are no reasons to wait. Drinking immediately is the best and most pleasurable option in all time frames. Now, can I choose whether to drink immediately or not? I would say that in these circumstances I’ve got no choice but to drink! The main point is that there were no reasons to do otherwise. But if I’d made a bet with my friend regarding if I can wait 10 minutes before drinking, it would have been another story and the outcome would probably have been determined by the size of the bet!
So, it might well be that there is no control after all. It’s also possible that the common concept of free will has arisen from the fact that because we don’t know other persons’ thoughts and motives, their actions are unpredictable for us and free will provides a good explanation for their seemingly erratic behavior.
But I am not at all sure about all this. I’m also not sure, if this was what you meant by following controlling back to its origin in DE. But as always, new questions are welcome!
when you control the issues you might as well look at 'the world' what is that exactly in direct experience? Can it be found as anything other than thoughts about a world?
In DE I can’t find a world, only thoughts about it.
Sakari
Here we go again:
Is the process of controlling automatic, happening without a you in control?
This kind of question is typically posed in scifi movies to an evil computer to drive it crazy! Love it!
Hmm, if there is control, it happens automatically without my effort – in other words, I don’t decide if I use control here but not there.
You are not the thinker - how can you be controlling?
An excellent question. In the realm of DE I can’t. But there is still a question open: If something doesn’t exist in DE, can it exist elsewhere or can it be a part of DE later?
How exactly does the separate I control?
This is difficult. In DE there is no separate I. I can’t give a DE based answer. In fact I can’t give you ANY answer. But don’t get me wrong – I am nor claiming I am in control but there is a strong sense telling so.
What happens if you follow controlling back to its origin, in direct experience?
In DE it looks like control = bunch of thoughts of the type “shall I do this or that”
Other thoughts of the type “what follows if I do this or that”
More thoughts of the type “how it feels to do this or that? Which is easier? How much do I like the outcome of doing this or that”, in other words thoughts about estimated feelings and emotions caused by different courses of action.
And finally, weighing the results and choosing the course of action that produces greatest pleasure and least trouble in the long run - in theory. In real life replace “in the long run” with “for next couple of” and add “years”, “months”, “weeks”, “days” or “hours” depending on the person and the circumstances.:)
For some reason executing this last phase – choosing the action – feels most like being in control. Let’s look a bit closer: I come home terribly thirsty and now I have 2 courses of action: Drink something immediately or wait. Let’s assume there are no reasons to wait. Drinking immediately is the best and most pleasurable option in all time frames. Now, can I choose whether to drink immediately or not? I would say that in these circumstances I’ve got no choice but to drink! The main point is that there were no reasons to do otherwise. But if I’d made a bet with my friend regarding if I can wait 10 minutes before drinking, it would have been another story and the outcome would probably have been determined by the size of the bet!
So, it might well be that there is no control after all. It’s also possible that the common concept of free will has arisen from the fact that because we don’t know other persons’ thoughts and motives, their actions are unpredictable for us and free will provides a good explanation for their seemingly erratic behavior.
But I am not at all sure about all this. I’m also not sure, if this was what you meant by following controlling back to its origin in DE. But as always, new questions are welcome!
when you control the issues you might as well look at 'the world' what is that exactly in direct experience? Can it be found as anything other than thoughts about a world?
In DE I can’t find a world, only thoughts about it.
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi Sakari
What a joy - very good looking! Thank you.
Choosing: When you come home, there seem to be two options drink water immidiately or wait (thoughts) Drinking happens, thought: I choosed to drink right away.
Really there is no chooser, no controller, no thinker, no separate I. Only thoughts about.
Are you really not sure, or is it thoughts claiming uncertainty?
Look at 'time'. What is the DE of 'time'?
yes, in DE there is only thoughts about the world - so where would Obama be when he is not direct experienced? What is direct experienced is 'the world' - 'rest' is thought only!
Greetings Vivi
What a joy - very good looking! Thank you.
Choosing: When you come home, there seem to be two options drink water immidiately or wait (thoughts) Drinking happens, thought: I choosed to drink right away.
Really there is no chooser, no controller, no thinker, no separate I. Only thoughts about.
What is the doubt about? What is 'doubt' in DE?So, it might well be that there is no control after all. It’s also possible that the common concept of free will has arisen from the fact that because we don’t know other persons’ thoughts and motives, their actions are unpredictable for us and free will provides a good explanation for their seemingly erratic behavior.
But I am not at all sure about all this.
Are you really not sure, or is it thoughts claiming uncertainty?
Look at 'time'. What is the DE of 'time'?
yes, in DE there is only thoughts about the world - so where would Obama be when he is not direct experienced? What is direct experienced is 'the world' - 'rest' is thought only!
Greetings Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hello, Vivi!
What a joy - very good looking! Thank you.
That was nice to hear, thanks!
Choosing: When you come home, there seem to be two options drink water immidiately or wait (thoughts) Drinking happens, thought: I choosed to drink right away.
Yes, that’s the usual way to think.
Really there is no chooser, no controller, no thinker, no separate I. Only thoughts about.
At least in DE!
So, it might well be that there is no control after all. It’s also possible that the common concept of free will has arisen from the fact that because we don’t know other persons’ thoughts and motives, their actions are unpredictable for us and free will provides a good explanation for their seemingly erratic behavior.
But I am not at all sure about all this.
What is the doubt about? What is 'doubt' in DE?
Are you really not sure, or is it thoughts claiming uncertainty?
I make all kind of mistakes in my thinking and hence it’s hard to believe that I have found something conclusive about free will in two hours while philosophers have debated over it for centuries! Also, I am new to looking and hence my vision is not too clear. Looking one’s thinking is very delicate business!
In DE doubt is the thought “I’m not sure if thought X is true or false”. And BTW that can be said about (almost) all thoughts! I guess you agree with this!
I am really not sure. Yes, I was looking at DE but it suffered a bit going through my blurred vision and not-so-accurate translation to thoughts.
Look at 'time'. What is the DE of 'time'?
In DE there is no time, only the present moment.
yes, in DE there is only thoughts about the world - so where would Obama be when he is not direct experienced? What is direct experienced is 'the world' - 'rest' is thought only!
In DE Obama is a thought and no problem with that. But I think thoughts are not equal. There are some thoughts that hold true with an extremely high probability (cats exist) and some that are almost surely false (unicorns exist). It seems that we probably disagree about something but so far I am not sure, about what. I admit that all thoughts are theories and hence in risk of proving false - but in different degree. And of course we can’t argue with DE – but as soon as thinking begins (like I see a wall) we are not 100% safe.
Sakari
What a joy - very good looking! Thank you.
That was nice to hear, thanks!
Choosing: When you come home, there seem to be two options drink water immidiately or wait (thoughts) Drinking happens, thought: I choosed to drink right away.
Yes, that’s the usual way to think.
Really there is no chooser, no controller, no thinker, no separate I. Only thoughts about.
At least in DE!
So, it might well be that there is no control after all. It’s also possible that the common concept of free will has arisen from the fact that because we don’t know other persons’ thoughts and motives, their actions are unpredictable for us and free will provides a good explanation for their seemingly erratic behavior.
But I am not at all sure about all this.
What is the doubt about? What is 'doubt' in DE?
Are you really not sure, or is it thoughts claiming uncertainty?
I make all kind of mistakes in my thinking and hence it’s hard to believe that I have found something conclusive about free will in two hours while philosophers have debated over it for centuries! Also, I am new to looking and hence my vision is not too clear. Looking one’s thinking is very delicate business!
In DE doubt is the thought “I’m not sure if thought X is true or false”. And BTW that can be said about (almost) all thoughts! I guess you agree with this!
I am really not sure. Yes, I was looking at DE but it suffered a bit going through my blurred vision and not-so-accurate translation to thoughts.
Look at 'time'. What is the DE of 'time'?
In DE there is no time, only the present moment.
yes, in DE there is only thoughts about the world - so where would Obama be when he is not direct experienced? What is direct experienced is 'the world' - 'rest' is thought only!
In DE Obama is a thought and no problem with that. But I think thoughts are not equal. There are some thoughts that hold true with an extremely high probability (cats exist) and some that are almost surely false (unicorns exist). It seems that we probably disagree about something but so far I am not sure, about what. I admit that all thoughts are theories and hence in risk of proving false - but in different degree. And of course we can’t argue with DE – but as soon as thinking begins (like I see a wall) we are not 100% safe.
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hello again, Vivi!
I’m not sure if this is important but I might have understood something. Is the separate I just a thought that has gathered around itself a large system of other thoughts in such a way that the system reinforces itself? And the system is of course extremely convincing so that almost nobody thinks about the possibility that it refers to nothing real?
This occurred to me last night. Good news: Before this I have not understood how it can be possible that no self exists. Now I MAY understand. “Bad” news: I am not 100% convinced about this. I think it’s an interesting possibility that might be true but I can’t feel it “inside my bones”. One moment it feels to make complete sense, another it doesn’t. Yesterday there was a period of half an hour with a no sense of me, only DE! No, there was a sense of me but it looked like unreal. Today things feel “normal” again.
As I said, I’ve no clue if this was important or not. You probably know better!
Sakari
I’m not sure if this is important but I might have understood something. Is the separate I just a thought that has gathered around itself a large system of other thoughts in such a way that the system reinforces itself? And the system is of course extremely convincing so that almost nobody thinks about the possibility that it refers to nothing real?
This occurred to me last night. Good news: Before this I have not understood how it can be possible that no self exists. Now I MAY understand. “Bad” news: I am not 100% convinced about this. I think it’s an interesting possibility that might be true but I can’t feel it “inside my bones”. One moment it feels to make complete sense, another it doesn’t. Yesterday there was a period of half an hour with a no sense of me, only DE! No, there was a sense of me but it looked like unreal. Today things feel “normal” again.
As I said, I’ve no clue if this was important or not. You probably know better!
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi Sakari
That is a very exact description, Sakari. It cancels every questions out!
'I can't feel it inside my bones' - just a thought! A thought pointing to a thought about 'it has to be felt in the bones to make sense'.
Direct experience is the key!
Great!
Vivi
That is a very exact description, Sakari. It cancels every questions out!
'I can't feel it inside my bones' - just a thought! A thought pointing to a thought about 'it has to be felt in the bones to make sense'.
Direct experience is the key!
Great!
Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
What thoughts about expectations of how it will be felt to see this 100 %, can you find is believed?
Vivi
Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi, Vivi!
'I can't feel it inside my bones' - just a thought! A thought pointing to a thought about 'it has to be felt in the bones to make sense'.
Oh no, it may make sense or not, I just don’t know yet! I’ve got a hunch that it will become clearer with time somehow.
Direct experience is the key!
May well be. At least I’ll give it a try!
What thoughts about expectations of how it will be felt to see this 100 %, can you find is believed?
I’m not sure if I understood you right. Do you mean
a) How I think I will feel if I find 100% certainty
or
b) Exactly what is needed to make me absolutely sure that there is no self?
Answer to a is probably “very good”.
B is harder. In fact I don’t know. “No self exists” is a thought and it looks next to impossible to prove it right with absolute certainty – just like the thought “no unicorns exist”. But in real life it doesn’t matter so much. I am sure enough that I will never face a unicorn. Same way if I never find a self and if everything seems to work perfectly without it, then of course I have no reasons to believe in its existence.
Sakari
'I can't feel it inside my bones' - just a thought! A thought pointing to a thought about 'it has to be felt in the bones to make sense'.
Oh no, it may make sense or not, I just don’t know yet! I’ve got a hunch that it will become clearer with time somehow.
Direct experience is the key!
May well be. At least I’ll give it a try!
What thoughts about expectations of how it will be felt to see this 100 %, can you find is believed?
I’m not sure if I understood you right. Do you mean
a) How I think I will feel if I find 100% certainty
or
b) Exactly what is needed to make me absolutely sure that there is no self?
Answer to a is probably “very good”.
B is harder. In fact I don’t know. “No self exists” is a thought and it looks next to impossible to prove it right with absolute certainty – just like the thought “no unicorns exist”. But in real life it doesn’t matter so much. I am sure enough that I will never face a unicorn. Same way if I never find a self and if everything seems to work perfectly without it, then of course I have no reasons to believe in its existence.
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Yes. It is really simple :)B is harder. In fact I don’t know. “No self exists” is a thought and it looks next to impossible to prove it right with absolute certainty – just like the thought “no unicorns exist”. But in real life it doesn’t matter so much. I am sure enough that I will never face a unicorn. Same way if I never find a self and if everything seems to work perfectly without it, then of course I have no reasons to believe in its existence.
Look when practical things in the house is done. Is there a you doing it. Is there a you deciding to do the dishes? When a piece of paper falls to the floor and bending down to pick it up happens, are there a you in command or is it simply happening. When there is an itch, are you choosing to scratch - or is scratching happening and followed by the thought 'I scratched my nose' When walking happens, is there a you deciding where to go, when to stop, when to go left, right. etc.
Greetings Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi, Vivi!
Look when practical things in the house is done. Is there a you doing it. Is there a you deciding to do the dishes?
Yesterday morning I noticed (more accurately a thought arose without my intention) that all the coffee cups are dirty. Thereafter another thought –also automatically - arose: should I wash up and when? Thoughts appeared about the outcomes of different washing plans. Plan “wash up immediately after breakfast” was showing the best outcome. After breakfast I loaded the dishes to the machine and turned the power on.
Now was there “I” deciding something and exactly when? I am reasonably certain no I was involved until deciding to compare washing plans. This is the most suspect point for I to appear. We could say that “I decided to compare the plans” and also that I wasn’t in any way bound to compare the plans and could have begun to think whatever else. Fair enough but on the other hand, in DE there were no clear signs of “I” and the process can also be explained perfectly well without “I”.
In later thinking and acting there was not a too strong sense of I, no I in DE and no I needed to explain what happened.
So it seems that decisions happened by themselves without my involvement.
When a piece of paper falls to the floor and bending down to pick it up happens, are there a you in command or is it simply happening. When there is an itch, are you choosing to scratch - or is scratching happening and followed by the thought 'I scratched my nose' When walking happens, is there a you deciding where to go, when to stop, when to go left, right. etc.
Lifting the paper and scratching my nose happen automatically without making any conscious decisions. These kind of actions require no thinking at all and can be performed perfectly while thinking something totally else. Same applies with walking except the decision “to where shall I walk?” which is a bit more complicated but resembles closely the decision “when shall I wash up?”
Greetings,
Sakari
Look when practical things in the house is done. Is there a you doing it. Is there a you deciding to do the dishes?
Yesterday morning I noticed (more accurately a thought arose without my intention) that all the coffee cups are dirty. Thereafter another thought –also automatically - arose: should I wash up and when? Thoughts appeared about the outcomes of different washing plans. Plan “wash up immediately after breakfast” was showing the best outcome. After breakfast I loaded the dishes to the machine and turned the power on.
Now was there “I” deciding something and exactly when? I am reasonably certain no I was involved until deciding to compare washing plans. This is the most suspect point for I to appear. We could say that “I decided to compare the plans” and also that I wasn’t in any way bound to compare the plans and could have begun to think whatever else. Fair enough but on the other hand, in DE there were no clear signs of “I” and the process can also be explained perfectly well without “I”.
In later thinking and acting there was not a too strong sense of I, no I in DE and no I needed to explain what happened.
So it seems that decisions happened by themselves without my involvement.
When a piece of paper falls to the floor and bending down to pick it up happens, are there a you in command or is it simply happening. When there is an itch, are you choosing to scratch - or is scratching happening and followed by the thought 'I scratched my nose' When walking happens, is there a you deciding where to go, when to stop, when to go left, right. etc.
Lifting the paper and scratching my nose happen automatically without making any conscious decisions. These kind of actions require no thinking at all and can be performed perfectly while thinking something totally else. Same applies with walking except the decision “to where shall I walk?” which is a bit more complicated but resembles closely the decision “when shall I wash up?”
Greetings,
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Great!
Keep looking for the separate I in practical everyday experience
Are there a separate I authoring thoughts?
Greetings
Vivi
Keep looking for the separate I in practical everyday experience
Are there a separate I authoring thoughts?
Greetings
Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
I try to remember!Keep looking for the separate I in practical everyday experience
Sorry but I am not sure if I understand you right. Do you mean is there a separate I authoring thoughts or something else?Are there a separate I authoring thoughts?
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
are you the author of thoughts?
Re: A thread with dreamer
I can say immediately that not completely and maybe much less. If my mind is in “free-floating mode”, I definitely don’t decide what to think. Thoughts just follow each other with or without a logical connection and their content may be whatever.are you the author of thoughts?
But sometimes I am concentrating at something and in that case the content of thoughts is related to the subject of concentration but may still be whatever in these limits.
So, in a way I am not the author of thoughts – they just appear. But I might still claim authorship because my thoughts arise to me and not to anyone else. They are products of my mind but the production is automatic. So, we can also say that in a way I am the author.
Ps. stuff about separate self will follow later.
Greetings, Sakari
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