Hi, Vivi!
I am very happy that you agreed to be my guide. A short story about myself:
I am a 55 years old man from Finland. I have been interested about spiritual matters since teen years. At the age of 30 I experienced a major crisis. Repressed emotions from my troubled childhood kind of broke a dam inside me and rushed in with great power. I was really desperate, depressed and hated everything. Same time I realized that in fact I KNEW nothing about spiritual matters and came to conclusion that spirituality is just BS.
Fortunately with skillful psychotherapists things got better and today I am a reasonably happy person with a usual amount of worrying, self-doubt and anxiety. About 3 years ago I found spirituality interesting again. First I found Scott Kiloby and later Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi. I also have tried to do some self-enquiry Maharshi way, with no realizations so far. I still know nothing about spirituality!
About 2 months ago I found LU and got really excited. I have read the enlightenment quotes many times trying to understand them and also about a half of Gateless Gatecrashers. I think I understand the “theory” pretty well, but unfortunately looking to direct experience is difficult. I have tried to do it and maybe even “seen” something but I am so inexperienced that I can’t trust what I vaguely see. And if I don’t see something (an “I” for instance), I can’t draw any conclusions from that with my poor vision. But I hope training and practice will help.
Where I am: I have read that the thought “I” refers to nothing and that might really be the case. But so far I haven’t seen or experienced it. What I except from this process is 100% clarity if I exist or not. I also HOPE that this realization will make my life easier and more interesting. But anyway: the main thing is that this self (un)realization process feels 120% right thing to do and leaves me no alternatives but to go forward!
Thank you very much for beginning this with me. Happy to answer any questions!
A thread with dreamer
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hello Sakari
- and welcome to LU Forum.
We will have to agree to reply here at least on time a day until finished. If sometimes not possible we will let each other know as soon as possible. Mainly I will ask the questions and you will answer from direct experience.
Direct experience means noticing what is right now - leaving out what thoughts claim about what is. Thoughts may claim all sorts of things - the thought is direct experience but the content of thought doesn't always point to the direct experience, it might just point to other thoughts.
So what is seen, heard, tasted, smelled, touched, felt, sensed in anyway right now is directly experienced. What is learned, read, believed, assumed, thought about the sensed is thought content = a story. In order to describe the direct experience (DE) words (thought labels) are needed, so we are looking for descriptions as closed to the DE as possible. Don't worry :) It might seem difficult but it isn't, it is really simple and I will help you if needed. When you read 'look' it means direct experience.
So let us look at the separate I. Can you find a separate I in direct experience? Where is it? What is it?
Can you find a thinker of thoughts? How do a thought come to be? Can you find the thinker?
Greetings Vivi
- and welcome to LU Forum.
We will have to agree to reply here at least on time a day until finished. If sometimes not possible we will let each other know as soon as possible. Mainly I will ask the questions and you will answer from direct experience.
Direct experience means noticing what is right now - leaving out what thoughts claim about what is. Thoughts may claim all sorts of things - the thought is direct experience but the content of thought doesn't always point to the direct experience, it might just point to other thoughts.
So what is seen, heard, tasted, smelled, touched, felt, sensed in anyway right now is directly experienced. What is learned, read, believed, assumed, thought about the sensed is thought content = a story. In order to describe the direct experience (DE) words (thought labels) are needed, so we are looking for descriptions as closed to the DE as possible. Don't worry :) It might seem difficult but it isn't, it is really simple and I will help you if needed. When you read 'look' it means direct experience.
So let us look at the separate I. Can you find a separate I in direct experience? Where is it? What is it?
Can you find a thinker of thoughts? How do a thought come to be? Can you find the thinker?
Greetings Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hello, Vivi!
I gave my best try to your questions and here’s what we got:
Can you find a separate I in direct experience?
I can’t see, hear, smell or taste it. But can I feel it? Sensations like the weight of body against the chair or the sense of a shirt against chest somehow feels like “me”. I know it sounds a bit ridiculous but that’s the way it is. I can’t find a separate I among thoughts or emotions.
Where is it? What is it?
I’ve got an obscure sense that the I is located everywhere inside the body sensing everything the body sees, hears, smells, tastes and feels. Also body movements. It is also aware of thoughts and emotions. This is how it feels – I’m absolutely not claiming that this is how it is since I don’t know how it is. But the I here looks very much like the nervous system.
How do a thought come to be? Can you find the thinker?
Thoughts appear by their own but fortunately depending what I am concentrating at. If I think which card to play in a game, typically thoughts arise that help in making the decision. Pondering upon any question, arising thoughts usually help finding the answer. But it is impossible to know the exact content of a thought before it has appeared. It looks like thoughts arise by their own without my effort. Concentration requires effort and produces focused thoughts but random thoughts arise effortlessly.
I’ll try to find the thinker tomorrow – right now my brain feels a bit knotted.:) Good night!
Sakari
Agreed!We will have to agree to reply here at least on time a day until finished. If sometimes not possible we will let each other know as soon as possible. Mainly I will ask the questions and you will answer from direct experience.
I gave my best try to your questions and here’s what we got:
Can you find a separate I in direct experience?
I can’t see, hear, smell or taste it. But can I feel it? Sensations like the weight of body against the chair or the sense of a shirt against chest somehow feels like “me”. I know it sounds a bit ridiculous but that’s the way it is. I can’t find a separate I among thoughts or emotions.
Where is it? What is it?
I’ve got an obscure sense that the I is located everywhere inside the body sensing everything the body sees, hears, smells, tastes and feels. Also body movements. It is also aware of thoughts and emotions. This is how it feels – I’m absolutely not claiming that this is how it is since I don’t know how it is. But the I here looks very much like the nervous system.
How do a thought come to be? Can you find the thinker?
Thoughts appear by their own but fortunately depending what I am concentrating at. If I think which card to play in a game, typically thoughts arise that help in making the decision. Pondering upon any question, arising thoughts usually help finding the answer. But it is impossible to know the exact content of a thought before it has appeared. It looks like thoughts arise by their own without my effort. Concentration requires effort and produces focused thoughts but random thoughts arise effortlessly.
I’ll try to find the thinker tomorrow – right now my brain feels a bit knotted.:) Good night!
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
There is no thinker needed to produce thoughts – they arise by themselves anyway. But I feel I am the thinker being aware of thoughts - the same separate I that is aware of senses and emotions. I am perfectly aware this is against what guides say but still it is what I feel.Can you find the thinker?
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi Sakari
Good!
Look also how exactly is the experience of 'inside the body' Can 'an inside' be found?
How exactly do you concentrate. Explain the concentrating, how does it happen. NOT the thoughts about it.
You feel you are the thinker - look ARE you the thinker?
The rest we will look at later.
Greetings Vivi
Good!
Is it your body? What makes it your body?Sensations like the weight of body against the chair or the sense of a shirt against chest somehow feels like “me”.
Oh that's just a thought claiming: 'it sounds ridiculous'....I know it sounds a bit ridiculous
Let us look at the nervous system. Can it actually be experienced right now? Is the experience a sensation + a thought about the sensation calling it 'a sensation in the nervous system'? What is the direct experience of a nervous system exactly?I’ve got an obscure sense that the I is located everywhere inside the body sensing everything the body sees, hears, smells, tastes and feels. Also body movements. It is also aware of thoughts and emotions. This is how it feels – I’m absolutely not claiming that this is how it is since I don’t know how it is. But the I here looks very much like the nervous system.
Look also how exactly is the experience of 'inside the body' Can 'an inside' be found?
Really? You think and then thoughts come to help?fortunately depending what I am concentrating at. If I think which card to play in a game, typically thoughts arise that help in making the decision.
How exactly do you concentrate. Explain the concentrating, how does it happen. NOT the thoughts about it.
There is no thinker needed, or there is no thinker? What is the direct experience?There is no thinker needed to produce thoughts – they arise by themselves anyway. But I feel I am the thinker being aware of thoughts - the same separate I that is aware of senses and emotions. I am perfectly aware this is against what guides say but still it is what I feel.
You feel you are the thinker - look ARE you the thinker?
The rest we will look at later.
Greetings Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi, Vivi!
Your questions are hard but that’s alright! Here we go again:
Is it your body? What makes it your body?
I think it’s my body because I am very aware of it – much more than of any other person’s body. I can see other bodies around me but I can’t feel their hunger or thirst. I experience what my body’s sense organs receive but I am not aware of other bodies’ sensations.
Let us look at the nervous system. Can it actually be experienced right now? Is the experience a sensation + a thought about the sensation calling it 'a sensation in the nervous system'?
Yes, quite exactly!
What is the direct experience of a nervous system exactly?
The only way to experience the nervous system is what you described above. I can’t find a way to experience the nervous system without a sensation.
Look also how exactly is the experience of 'inside the body' Can 'an inside' be found?
Right now I am slightly hungry. The sense of hunger is located in the stomach, inside the body. But the WHOLE inside of body is hard, probably impossible, to find by direct experience.
Really? You think and then thoughts come to help?
Yes. This feels quite obvious. How else could it be? I am not sure if I understood you right.
How exactly do you concentrate. Explain the concentrating, how does it happen. NOT the thoughts about it.
OK. Right now I am concentrating to the question ”How do I concentrate?” First I make sure that I understand the question and if it is somewhat vague, I try to reformulate it so that it becomes as exact as possible. No need for it here, because the question is exact enough. Next I give the question all my attention and try to understand it as completely as possible, everything about it. I am not repeating it verbally in my mind but somehow hold it, thinking nothing else. After a while, thoughts arise one by one and I test them to find out, do they make any sense. There are typically moments that I don’t think anything –just be and wait. New questions may also arise and if they feel important, I will handle them like the original question. What I am looking for is a thought or thoughts that make everything click together. If it clicks, I’ve got a strong candidate for the right answer. Then I take hold of it same way as with the original problem and wait for “what if” –thoughts to arise and test the answer with them. If the answer stands, I can accept it to be probably right. I hope this was the answer for your question!
There is no thinker needed, or there is no thinker? What is the direct experience?
Hmm, let’s define: Thinker = someone producing thoughts. Can I find one? Using my 5 senses I can’t find a thinker. Can a thought or an emotion produce thoughts? Not sure but definitely a thought or an emotion can’t be called someone. So, I can’t find a thought- producing thinker.
You feel you are the thinker - look ARE you the thinker?
OK, thinker = someone aware of thoughts. Can I find one? Using my 5 senses I can’t find a thinker. A thought or an emotion cannot think either. So, using DE I can’t find a thinker. But can we now conclude that no thinker exists? With DE I can’t find Barack Obama or my own brain either but I still believe they both exist!
Greetings,
Sakari
Your questions are hard but that’s alright! Here we go again:
Is it your body? What makes it your body?
I think it’s my body because I am very aware of it – much more than of any other person’s body. I can see other bodies around me but I can’t feel their hunger or thirst. I experience what my body’s sense organs receive but I am not aware of other bodies’ sensations.
Let us look at the nervous system. Can it actually be experienced right now? Is the experience a sensation + a thought about the sensation calling it 'a sensation in the nervous system'?
Yes, quite exactly!
What is the direct experience of a nervous system exactly?
The only way to experience the nervous system is what you described above. I can’t find a way to experience the nervous system without a sensation.
Look also how exactly is the experience of 'inside the body' Can 'an inside' be found?
Right now I am slightly hungry. The sense of hunger is located in the stomach, inside the body. But the WHOLE inside of body is hard, probably impossible, to find by direct experience.
Really? You think and then thoughts come to help?
Yes. This feels quite obvious. How else could it be? I am not sure if I understood you right.
How exactly do you concentrate. Explain the concentrating, how does it happen. NOT the thoughts about it.
OK. Right now I am concentrating to the question ”How do I concentrate?” First I make sure that I understand the question and if it is somewhat vague, I try to reformulate it so that it becomes as exact as possible. No need for it here, because the question is exact enough. Next I give the question all my attention and try to understand it as completely as possible, everything about it. I am not repeating it verbally in my mind but somehow hold it, thinking nothing else. After a while, thoughts arise one by one and I test them to find out, do they make any sense. There are typically moments that I don’t think anything –just be and wait. New questions may also arise and if they feel important, I will handle them like the original question. What I am looking for is a thought or thoughts that make everything click together. If it clicks, I’ve got a strong candidate for the right answer. Then I take hold of it same way as with the original problem and wait for “what if” –thoughts to arise and test the answer with them. If the answer stands, I can accept it to be probably right. I hope this was the answer for your question!
There is no thinker needed, or there is no thinker? What is the direct experience?
Hmm, let’s define: Thinker = someone producing thoughts. Can I find one? Using my 5 senses I can’t find a thinker. Can a thought or an emotion produce thoughts? Not sure but definitely a thought or an emotion can’t be called someone. So, I can’t find a thought- producing thinker.
You feel you are the thinker - look ARE you the thinker?
OK, thinker = someone aware of thoughts. Can I find one? Using my 5 senses I can’t find a thinker. A thought or an emotion cannot think either. So, using DE I can’t find a thinker. But can we now conclude that no thinker exists? With DE I can’t find Barack Obama or my own brain either but I still believe they both exist!
Greetings,
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hello again, Vivi!
A quick question: Is direct experience something so simple and obvious that just it makes it difficult? If I answer a question and the answer is based on d.e., is the answer something that a child or a caveman would say?
Sakari
A quick question: Is direct experience something so simple and obvious that just it makes it difficult? If I answer a question and the answer is based on d.e., is the answer something that a child or a caveman would say?
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
…and more stuff:
I suppose I understood what direct experience is, it was just too simple! Based on my understanding and looking it now seems quite clear that in d.e. there are just sensations, thoughts and emotions. In d.e. I can find for example a computer screen, a chair, a room etc but if we are accurate, they are just bunches of sensations labeled as screen, chair or room.
What I can’t find in d.e. is a thinker, a seer, a perceiver, me, the nervous system, Obama, brain or Santa Claus. But I still think it’s quite reasonable to assume that brain and Obama exist. It is also reasonable to assume that there is no Santa. But what about me? How can I find if I exist or not?
Best regards,
Sakari
I suppose I understood what direct experience is, it was just too simple! Based on my understanding and looking it now seems quite clear that in d.e. there are just sensations, thoughts and emotions. In d.e. I can find for example a computer screen, a chair, a room etc but if we are accurate, they are just bunches of sensations labeled as screen, chair or room.
What I can’t find in d.e. is a thinker, a seer, a perceiver, me, the nervous system, Obama, brain or Santa Claus. But I still think it’s quite reasonable to assume that brain and Obama exist. It is also reasonable to assume that there is no Santa. But what about me? How can I find if I exist or not?
Best regards,
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi, Vivi!
Today has brought nothing special so far. Please don’t forget me!
Sakari
Today has brought nothing special so far. Please don’t forget me!
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi Sakari!
Sorry for the delay - there were no notifications in my inbox that you had answered. What a great looking
Of course brain and Obama exists, in the same way as the separate self exists. As a thought. What is the direct experience of a brain and of Obama right now? What is the DE of a separate I right now?
Assumptions can be made about anything ;) doesn't make it true though.
Are you in control of anything?
Greetings Vivi
Sorry for the delay - there were no notifications in my inbox that you had answered. What a great looking
I really don't know, but imagine the answer is yes ;)A quick question: Is direct experience something so simple and obvious that just it makes it difficult? If I answer a question and the answer is based on d.e., is the answer something that a child or a caveman would say?
Exactly. All there is is some sensations/experience labelled by thoughts.I suppose I understood what direct experience is, it was just too simple! Based on my understanding and looking it now seems quite clear that in d.e. there are just sensations, thoughts and emotions. In d.e. I can find for example a computer screen, a chair, a room etc but if we are accurate, they are just bunches of sensations labeled as screen, chair or room.
What I can’t find in d.e. is a thinker, a seer, a perceiver, me, the nervous system, Obama, brain or Santa Claus. But I still think it’s quite reasonable to assume that brain and Obama exist. It is also reasonable to assume that there is no Santa. But what about me? How can I find if I exist or not?
Of course brain and Obama exists, in the same way as the separate self exists. As a thought. What is the direct experience of a brain and of Obama right now? What is the DE of a separate I right now?
Assumptions can be made about anything ;) doesn't make it true though.
Are you in control of anything?
Greetings Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
Sorry for the delay - there were no notifications in my inbox that you had answered.
No problem!
Of course brain and Obama exists, in the same way as the separate self exists. As a thought.
I’m not sure if I understand this right. According to enlightenment quotes separate self exists like Santa Claus, who is a thought, referring to nothing real. Are you really saying that Santa, separate self and Obama are all as real??
What is the direct experience of a brain and of Obama right now? What is the DE of a separate I right now?
Right now none of above can be found in DE.
Assumptions can be made about anything ;) doesn't make it true though.
Yes, but I think there is a HUGE difference between assumptions “Obama exists” and “Santa exists” or “lions exist” and “unicorns exist”, even though none of those are a part of my present DE.
Are you in control of anything?
This requires some thought, will answer that later. Good night!
Sakari
No problem!
Of course brain and Obama exists, in the same way as the separate self exists. As a thought.
I’m not sure if I understand this right. According to enlightenment quotes separate self exists like Santa Claus, who is a thought, referring to nothing real. Are you really saying that Santa, separate self and Obama are all as real??
What is the direct experience of a brain and of Obama right now? What is the DE of a separate I right now?
Right now none of above can be found in DE.
Assumptions can be made about anything ;) doesn't make it true though.
Yes, but I think there is a HUGE difference between assumptions “Obama exists” and “Santa exists” or “lions exist” and “unicorns exist”, even though none of those are a part of my present DE.
Are you in control of anything?
This requires some thought, will answer that later. Good night!
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi Sakari
What I say is that right now they are all thoughts. Meaning there is no DE of any of them.
I know what the Enlightened quotes says, you cant rely on anything read or written - only direct experience. Do not believe what I say too! Check in DE. Always.
Looking forward to see the answer to question about control.
Greetings Vivi
No I am not. In DE can you find anything 'real'?I’m not sure if I understand this right. According to enlightenment quotes separate self exists like Santa Claus, who is a thought, referring to nothing real. Are you really saying that Santa, separate self and Obama are all as real??
What I say is that right now they are all thoughts. Meaning there is no DE of any of them.
I know what the Enlightened quotes says, you cant rely on anything read or written - only direct experience. Do not believe what I say too! Check in DE. Always.
OK, you tell me what is the difference?Yes, but I think there is a HUGE difference between assumptions “Obama exists” and “Santa exists” or “lions exist” and “unicorns exist”, even though none of those are a part of my present DE.
Looking forward to see the answer to question about control.
Greetings Vivi
Re: A thread with dreamer
Are you in control of anything?
In everyday life it at least feels so! I decide what to wear, what to eat, whom of my friends I will visit today, what to look in TV, when I go to sleep etc. But of course, this freedom of choice may be an illusion. It’s not impossible to think that if someone observed my habits for a while, he might quite well be able to predict my actions with reasonable accuracy.
But enough with philosophizing, which typically leads from nothing to nowhere. I guess the right place to look for the answer is DE. The question is large and it might be easier first to answer to a more concise question like “How do I decide, whether to drink coffee or tea?”
The process begins with the arising feeling “a cup of coffee or tea would be nice”. Then I compare thoughts of drinking coffee and drinking tea and choose the one which feels more pleasurable. But in DE there is no me comparing anything or making choices. Better to say that first appear thoughts “drinking coffee/tea would feel like this” like in a scales and then comes “tea feels slightly better”.
But still there is a strong sense that I do the comparing: Do I like more coffee or tea?
So, if we trust DE, it seems that the process is automatic with no control. At the moment, I still don’t know how reliable DE is. Anyway the sense of control and “my decision” is strong.
I know this was a bit crazy and didn’t answer to your question but I couldn’t help myself! No control, you see!
The philosophical debate can wait till tomorrow!
Sakari
In everyday life it at least feels so! I decide what to wear, what to eat, whom of my friends I will visit today, what to look in TV, when I go to sleep etc. But of course, this freedom of choice may be an illusion. It’s not impossible to think that if someone observed my habits for a while, he might quite well be able to predict my actions with reasonable accuracy.
But enough with philosophizing, which typically leads from nothing to nowhere. I guess the right place to look for the answer is DE. The question is large and it might be easier first to answer to a more concise question like “How do I decide, whether to drink coffee or tea?”
The process begins with the arising feeling “a cup of coffee or tea would be nice”. Then I compare thoughts of drinking coffee and drinking tea and choose the one which feels more pleasurable. But in DE there is no me comparing anything or making choices. Better to say that first appear thoughts “drinking coffee/tea would feel like this” like in a scales and then comes “tea feels slightly better”.
But still there is a strong sense that I do the comparing: Do I like more coffee or tea?
So, if we trust DE, it seems that the process is automatic with no control. At the moment, I still don’t know how reliable DE is. Anyway the sense of control and “my decision” is strong.
I know this was a bit crazy and didn’t answer to your question but I couldn’t help myself! No control, you see!
The philosophical debate can wait till tomorrow!
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hello again! Back to philosophy:
I’m not sure if I understand this right. According to enlightenment quotes separate self exists like Santa Claus, who is a thought, referring to nothing real. Are you really saying that Santa, separate self and Obama are all as real??
No I am not. In DE can you find anything 'real'?
I think DE is in a way more real than anything else. If something happens in DE, it happens, period. And if there is a contradiction between DE and my system of beliefs and thoughts, better believe DE and adjust the thinking and theories! If I see a cow-looking object fly, the reasonable approach is to believe my eyes and maybe try to find as good an explanation as possible. But if I’m unreasonable, I think “Cows can’t fly” and don’t believe my eyes!
What I say is that right now they are all thoughts. Meaning there is no DE of any of them.
BUT if I can’t find thing X in DE, I can’t draw the conclusion that X doesn’t exist. My present DE doesn’t contain a cat. But I still think it’s more reasonable to assume that cats exist than that they don’t.
I know what the Enlightened quotes says, you cant rely on anything read or written - only direct experience. Do not believe what I say too! Check in DE. Always.
Don’t worry! I always doubt everything!
Yes, but I think there is a HUGE difference between assumptions “Obama exists” and “Santa exists” or “lions exist” and “unicorns exist”, even though none of those are a part of my present DE.
OK, you tell me what is the difference?
Assumption ”Obama exists” is almost surely true (he might be dead but we don’t know yet) but “Santa exists” is surely false. Lions DO exist but unicorns don’t.
Greetings,
Sakari
I’m not sure if I understand this right. According to enlightenment quotes separate self exists like Santa Claus, who is a thought, referring to nothing real. Are you really saying that Santa, separate self and Obama are all as real??
No I am not. In DE can you find anything 'real'?
I think DE is in a way more real than anything else. If something happens in DE, it happens, period. And if there is a contradiction between DE and my system of beliefs and thoughts, better believe DE and adjust the thinking and theories! If I see a cow-looking object fly, the reasonable approach is to believe my eyes and maybe try to find as good an explanation as possible. But if I’m unreasonable, I think “Cows can’t fly” and don’t believe my eyes!
What I say is that right now they are all thoughts. Meaning there is no DE of any of them.
BUT if I can’t find thing X in DE, I can’t draw the conclusion that X doesn’t exist. My present DE doesn’t contain a cat. But I still think it’s more reasonable to assume that cats exist than that they don’t.
I know what the Enlightened quotes says, you cant rely on anything read or written - only direct experience. Do not believe what I say too! Check in DE. Always.
Don’t worry! I always doubt everything!
Yes, but I think there is a HUGE difference between assumptions “Obama exists” and “Santa exists” or “lions exist” and “unicorns exist”, even though none of those are a part of my present DE.
OK, you tell me what is the difference?
Assumption ”Obama exists” is almost surely true (he might be dead but we don’t know yet) but “Santa exists” is surely false. Lions DO exist but unicorns don’t.
Greetings,
Sakari
Re: A thread with dreamer
Hi Sakari
I think DE is in a way more real than anything else. If something happens in DE, it happens, period.
Exactly! Look in DE if you can find anything that is not experience. If the experience is happening now, it means it is experienced now. If it happened 'yesterday' it isn't direct. The direct experience in that case will be the thoughts of what was experienced yesterday. The thought content will not be direct experience, it can not be anything other than thoughts about having an experience. A story.
Here we look for what is KNOWN. That can only be what is direct experienced.
Is the process of controlling automatic, happening without a you in control?
How exactly does the separate I control? What happens if you follow controlling back to its origin, in direct experience?
Greetings Vivi
I think DE is in a way more real than anything else. If something happens in DE, it happens, period.
Exactly! Look in DE if you can find anything that is not experience. If the experience is happening now, it means it is experienced now. If it happened 'yesterday' it isn't direct. The direct experience in that case will be the thoughts of what was experienced yesterday. The thought content will not be direct experience, it can not be anything other than thoughts about having an experience. A story.
You can draw the conclusion that it isn't experienced right now. Right? Thoughts of a cat is experienced, but the cat is not. and experience is all you have. Isn't it? Look again if you can find something that is not experience.BUT if I can’t find thing X in DE, I can’t draw the conclusion that X doesn’t exist. My present DE doesn’t contain a cat. But I still think it’s more reasonable to assume that cats exist than that they don’t.
Exactly, you said it! To say right now that Obama exists, is an assumption. You don't KNOW right now. Thoughts tell that of course he does, you just saw him on Television. BUT it is not KNOWN, it is assumed.Assumption ”Obama exists” is almost surely true (he might be dead but we don’t know yet) but “Santa exists” is surely false. Lions DO exist but unicorns don’t.
Here we look for what is KNOWN. That can only be what is direct experienced.
Is the process of controlling automatic, happening without a you in control?
You are not the thinker - how can you be controlling?The process begins with the arising feeling “a cup of coffee or tea would be nice”. Then I compare thoughts of drinking coffee and drinking tea and choose the one which feels more pleasurable. But in DE there is no me comparing anything or making choices. Better to say that first appear thoughts “drinking coffee/tea would feel like this” like in a scales and then comes “tea feels slightly better”.
But still there is a strong sense that I do the comparing: Do I like more coffee or tea?
How exactly does the separate I control? What happens if you follow controlling back to its origin, in direct experience?
Greetings Vivi
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