realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

What is found?

I am remembering a lie of omission to a loved one: withholding some information that felt awkward to share. I’m constricting my breathing, and maybe there’s some tightness in my chest. I’m tensing my jaw a bit. There’s a tightness or lump in my throat (which is often my most prominent physical sensation connected with negative emotions).

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Yes.

1. Without "I" is truer because there's no such thing as "I." It is only a contraction plus a labelor story.

Let me know if this comment falls under the "thinking and analyzing" that should be ignored in this process, but it seems to me that "I" is a useful convention for communication, referring to this particular body-mind (even if that body-mind has no underlying essence and its components are ever-changing), so it doesn't seem like a lie to me.

4. There will be tension, a contraction, with "I," since it's a lie, that will not be there without it. There's a pointer for this. Let me know when you notice the difference.

I was supposed to refer to my direct experience, and I didn't notice any tension or contraction. And that makes sense, given that I didn't think the "I" there was a lie. (If I said, "I believe there is a substantial, unchanging, eternal "self" that the essence of this particular body-mind," that statement would be a lie, but the use of "I" at the start of the sentence wouldn't feel like a lie.)

[Anastacia42]

"I" is a useful convention for communication,

It is, but it is still not true. Watch for the Sensation of tightness, heaviness or contraction.

And let's move on.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving

[whoknows]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

I see red shapes in the form of the word "GREEN".

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The color red is experienced.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The meaning of the label suggests something different from the color of the label.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

There's no association (except that "green" is a label for a color, and red is a color). The word "green" is just a label.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Those labels have no effect on the reality of the color.

Let me know what is SEEN.

The word "GREEN" printed in the color red.

[Anastacia42]

Good. The label "self" is similar.

Okay let's bring it together a little bit.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving

[whoknows]

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

What a thought describes might or might not be real or true.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

All that's known through the direct experience of vision and thought is the sight of shape and color and the fact that thoughts arise, including, perhaps, the thought of the label "apple." There might or might not really be an apple there.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Well, if we investigate further, using more senses, we might find that in addition to seeing the shape and color, we can feel the texture and weight in our hand, and we can take a bite and feel the texture in our mouth, and we can sense specific tastes and smells. Putting enough of that together, we could be confident that we're having the cluster of sensations that everyone who's familiar with apples (and whom we would consider sane) would agree to call an "apple" (or whatever word for "apple" is used in their language), though I suppose it could also be a really detailed and convincing dream or hallucination of an apple. But what we actually know through direct experience is simply the cluster of sensations conventionally labeled "apple."

However, is an apple actually known?

What is known through direct experience is just the group of sensations conventionally (and usefully) labeled "apple," not actually an apple.

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Obviously, the relevant parallel here is that what is known of the supposed "self" through direct experience is just a cluster of physical sensations and mental stuff, not actually a self.

[Anastacia42]

Okay

Please write in the first person unless there is a mouse in your pocket. ;)

the relevant parallel here is that what is known of the supposed "self" through direct experience is just a cluster of physical sensations and mental stuff, not actually a self.

https://youtu.be/uAXtO5dMqEI

That is correct, but you got there through thinking.

We (you and I) are looking for a shift in perception. A visceral thing, not a thought. This may be tough for you.

Treat these pointers like meditation.

LOOK with your eyes. Ignore thoughts.

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=TZwuFEst-7Hsadpu

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,

[whoknows]

We (you and I) are looking for a shift in perception. A visceral thing, not a thought.

Absolutely. That's what I'm here for.

This may be tough for you.

I don't think so — or, I mean, not any tougher than for your average person. But I'll remember to try not to clutter up this space with think-y comments.

I'll try the exercise later today and respond.

I really appreciate your quick replies. Thank you.

[Anastacia42]

That sounds great.

Loving,

[whoknows]

How is the movement controlled?

Beats me.

Does a thought control it?

Well, it seems like maybe there was a flicker of a conscious thought giving assent to proceeding with exercise I was reading about. But maybe I’m just inferring that because I know I wouldn’t immediately proceed to try just anything suggested by something I was reading. Maybe the thought to proceed with the exercise wasn’t actually conscious.

I didn’t notice making any conscious decision about using my right hand, as opposed to my left, or about where exactly to hold my hand, how rigidly to hold my hand, how quickly to flip it over each time, or when to stop.

Trying it again, I can also make conscious decisions about all of those details. So it’s kind of like how either you can let your breathing be controlled unconsciously or you can consciously control it.

But even when I’m consciously controlling the speed of my hand-flipping, etc., where did those decisions come from? Why did I decide to go more slowly? Why did I decide to stop right then? No idea.

If there are thoughts controlling any of this, it seems that they are all or mostly unconscious and, thus, don’t count as the “direct experience” we’re focusing on here.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I can’t find one.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

The first time I tried this, when I wasn’t intending to control any of the details, maybe there was a flicker of conscious thought that decided that this experiment was acceptable and initiated holding up the hand and starting the first flip, or maybe not. But the subsequent hand flips just happened, with no conscious decisions that I noticed.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Not anyone or anything I’m conscious of.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No.

[Anastacia42]

It is correct that no thought controls it - conscious or unconscious.

If you think it does please explain the mechanism.

Slow it down and notice which comes first - the movement or the thought?

Loving,

[whoknows]

It is correct that no thought controls it - conscious or unconscious.

If you think it does please explain the mechanism.

Hmm . . . I know I'm supposed to be focusing on direct experience, but I think a reasonable proposal for a possible mechanism would require appealing to something outside of direct experience, like brain functioning or the unconscious, so I think I should probably just move along to the next question? (And I don’t see how you could possibly know for sure that no unconscious thought controls something — certainly not through direct experience.)

Slow it down and notice which comes first - the movement or the thought?

I guess they seem more or less simultaneous.

[Anastacia42]

Yes. Direct Experience only.

Unconscious thought cannot be proven because there is no direct experience.

Thought always comes second, but it can be very fast.

We've got to get you away from thinking & into experiencing.

So, here is a pointer that may force you to look, not think:

ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

I did only this and nothing else for 3 months and then saw. It crept up on me while I was sitting at a stoplight. Seeing often happens when we are simply relaxed and looking. I should say, it ONLY happens when we are relaxed and LOOKING. All of this thinking is useless.

Loving,

[whoknows]

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

(I like this one.)

I’m sitting cross-legged on my bed at the moment, so it’s ButtBed.

My direct experience in the vicinity of where my butt meets the bed is mainly just sensations of pressure (and temperature, but I’ll focus on pressure).

Hmm . . . I feel sensations in my butt, and I’m tempted to say that where the sensations end is the dividing line between my butt and the bed, but . . . I dunno . . . “Where the sensations end” seems like maybe it’s a mental construction, not actually a direct experience. But I’m not sure yet.

. . .

I spent quite a while doing this, and I don’t know whether I should share the details of my further sensory explorations and musings, so I’ll sum it up with this: It's not yet obvious to me whether I can directly sense the dividing line or not. It seems like the "right" answer is probably that I can't, but I haven't confidently come to that conclusion for myself yet through my experiential explorations.

[Anastacia42]

not yet obvious to me whether I can directly sense the dividing line or not. It seems like the "right" answer is probably that I can't, but I haven't confidently come to that conclusion for myself yet through my experiential explorations.

Practice until this is obvious. It's a meditation.

Loving,

[whoknows]

Practice until this is obvious. It's a meditation.

OK. I might get back to you in about three months . . .