Only this

[Elad]

Hey Kathy

Hi Elad,
Thank you very much for your time and the exercise you gave.

Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

None of them were more true than the other. In fact it was seen that actually both versions were kind of not true.
They could not reveal the actual thing that was happening.

What is here without labels?

There is only this thing that can't be described, a sensation, a seeing, a hearing, a feeling...etc.

Do labels create what is there prior to being described, or just describe it with more or less simplicity and objecitivty?

The labels are trying to describe what is already here, but was very clear how different the actual thing that is happening is, from the label that is trying to describe it.
Everything was already happening as it was and the labels couldn't add or subtract from that.

Did you notice any differences in the body?

That was very subtle, but the first group of descriptions with the "I " thought felt more like some center here that these things were happening to or this body was doing.
The second part of the exercise, just using verbs felt more open and neutral, happenings just happening, not for or to some entity that is at the center of everything.
Wow!!! This was really eye-opening!

This is all very clear and on-point. Great.

Also Elad, I liked what you stated under P.S.
I always thought that I need to get rid of my beliefs or try to dissolve them.

Exactly, and can you see how this perpetuate the belief and identification?

I need to get out of I. Now go lift yourself up by the bootstraps, or find me an upside down circle ;)

"I" cannot realize this. The nature of "I" (- illusion unfolding) can be seen for what it is.

I want to make sure that I understand correctly what you said.
So the goal is not to change a belief, but to recognize or to see that it is appearing in a given moment just like everything else and it doesn't have anything to do with me?
But isn't that the problem to begin with? The word itself already means that there is identification with it, otherwise it is not a belief .
If I can see this clearly, it is not a belief anymore.
The fact that I am identified with a point of view makes it a belief, doesn't it?
I don't know, I am confused again.
Thank you very much for your time and patience.

You are intellectually sharp which can be both a blessing and a curse in this. Here is the thing... When I guide you I sometimes use logic to support a seeing of a belief as a belief. But this is only "to use a thorn to remove a thorn". In the end whatever we say here are only pointers. It is all in the end about returning to what is actually there in direct experience, and what is only illusion.

Where or what is "the confused one, the one who is confused again"?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,
Thank you very much for your reply.
The exercise that made the comparison between using and not using the "I " thought was very clear and eye opening.
Since then, I am much more aware how truly different an actual experience is versus the way the mind is describing it.
Your question to me who is actually the one confused, made me see that I fell into the trap again.
There was confusion happening, but even that is not true.
Where is confusion in actuality?! Confusion is just a label that can only be there, when the mind is involved.
When I look for confusion in the body or anywhere else for that matter, I can't find it.
The mind has to draw a conclusion about something and call that confusion.
That is very clear.
Can you help me seeing through doubt?
In true stillness there is nothing questioned, however this is very short- lived.
The mind comes in very quickly trying to hold on to something , trying to create a new identification with non-identification.
When I heard or read that the thinker is also a thought, I found that very prfound and it totally resonated with me, but doubt gets in the way of this notion.
I truly appreciate you working with me.
Thank you very much 🙏

[Elad]

Hey Kathy,

Beautiful, seeing is happening and "doubt" will continue to be believed until it is not....

You already saw that confusion is just a label. I trust you can see the same is the case for doubt?

So the next times "doubt" seems to be there, look, what/where is it really? What is actually there in direct experience, beyond label?

Have you ever forgetting where you left something, and then looking for it again and again in the same place until it finally is trully taken on board that it is not there? And have you experienced that even when it is clearly realized, in a moment of distraction, the body might look for the key in the same place again, even after clear realization? This metaphor indicates the way thought patterns can continue for a while, even when clearly realized as false.This is not something we need to make go away. We just see it for what it is and realization is there. There is no permanent self that can live with permanent no-self realization.

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

You already saw that confusion is just a label. I trust you can see the same is the case for doubt?

Yes, you are right and your key analogy was wonderful!!! This happens to me frequently. I misplace my key, have already looked 10 times in that specific location where I usually put it and it's not there, but when I can't find it any place else, I come back again to the same place where I had clearly seen it wasn't, but I insist that I must have made a mistake and it should be there in that place.
Am I doing the same with the self that I clearly haven't found in experience?
Believing the "self mposter" again and again!!!

So the next times "doubt" seems to be there, look, what/where is it really? What is actually there in direct experience, beyond label?

Doubt is nothing more than a thought, a concept that's believed in.
When I close my eyes and ask what is here that truly can't be doubted?
Just this.
There is nothing that I can find. There is nothing that I can doubt or not doubt.
It doesn't even make sense to ask that question.
There is just indescribable isness, can be called stillness or expansiveness, but nothing really can be put in words as to what it is.
I can't even call it consciousness , because if I do I have applied a concept that I have picked up from reading about or listening to nonduality teachings.

[Elad]

Beautiful, very clear.

Am I doing the same with the self that I clearly haven't found in experience?

🙃

So:

There is no separate self whatso ever, and exactly this experience, exactly as it is now, including everything in it, even thoughts about self or doubt, are the direct confirmation of it, prior to words. This is it. No more, no less. What reactions come up?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

There is no separate self whatso ever, and exactly this experience, exactly as it is now, including everything in it, even thoughts about self or doubt, are the direct confirmation of it, prior to words. This is it. No more, no less. What reactions come up?

It is clear that there is something here that thoughts cannot touch.
It actually doesn't matter what the thoughts say, a doubt thought, a me thought, an "others" thought, they all have the same quality of "isness".
The problem arises when that is not clearly seen and a fearful thought, for example causes real shifts in the body, such as an increased heart rate, increased blood pressure etc...
That happens very quickly and I blame myself afterwards, why I fell for it and believed a thought that wasn't true.
The other thing is that there is an urge to use words to describe experiences .
It feels like thought is a barometer that gets used by default to assess anything that's happening.
That assessment itself is already seen as a viewpoint of a separate self, if it isn't caught right away and seen through.

[Elad]

It is clear that there is something here that thoughts cannot touch.
It actually doesn't matter what the thoughts say, a doubt thought, a me thought, an "others" thought, they all have the same quality of "isness".

Yes, clear.

The problem arises when that is not clearly seen and a fearful thought, for example causes real shifts in the body, such as an increased heart rate, increased blood pressure etc...

This is normal. Seeing thorough self does not once and for all see through all the habitual confused/shadow conditioning. Also, expectations, hopes, desires, aversions, will, choices, thoughts about self, etc. etc. still come up, conventionally speaking. And this is not a problem, just part of being human. In fact we couldn't function in human life without some version of these. Only difference: when attended to, it is no no longer believed that any of this is direct experience and it is clear that there is in fact no separate self, standing outside of reality, creating or choosing the thoughts, desires, choices, reactions, etc.

Is this clear?

That happens very quickly and I blame myself afterwards, why I fell for it and believed a thought that wasn't true.

More conditioning just happening. It is not "you" who blame "yourself". Just thoughts appear like "it is my fault".

Clear?

The other thing is that there is an urge to use words to describe experiences .

Yes for human brains to use words is as natural as for human hearts to beat and for human lungs to breath. We not looking to change that. No self doing it.

It feels like thought is a barometer that gets used by default to assess anything that's happening.

Yup, part of normal functioning. Not looking to make it stop. Just to see that it is happening by itself. Here is a little koan to see this clearly:

How to want not wanting? How to do not doing?

Nothing needs to change in what you describe, just see it for what it already is, with the clarity that already is available. To quote some Zen master: Ordinary mind is the way.

That assessment itself is already seen as a viewpoint of a separate self, if it isn't caught right away and seen through.

It is not "seen" as a viewpoint of a self, it is the thought comes up, when attentiveness is not there. Sometimes. Sometimes mind is just zoned out, or daydreaming something else. However, and this might be what you mean: when attentiveness is not there, all kinds of habitual "selfing" thoughts can just happen. Yes, we are not looking to change that. We are not looking to create a situation where dreaming is not happening in "sleep" (= when not attentive), we just clarify in attentiveness, that the dream is dream, and that this is clear in any moment of attentiveness. Like we wouldn't argue Santa is real, or that we believe in the Santa-illusion, because we might dream when we sleep that he is real and riding Rudolph.

There never was a self controlling, choosing, attending and controlling attention; there never was a self that is responsible or not responsible, awake or not awake. What is, is. What seemingly happens, seemingly happens.

Is that clear?

Stay with truth.

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad.

Is this clear?

Yes, what helped me tremendously with this understanding was the exercise you gave me , comparing using or not using the "I" thought with happenings or activities.
It has helped a lot in situations where there were uncomfortable thoughts, and I just noticed thinking is happening without analyzing what the thoughts were saying.

Clear?

Yes, same thing based on prior conditioning thoughts happening pretending they are about a me or a situation, none of which can be found in direct experience.

I would like to share with you a situation that I am in.
Yesterday I was told by a doctor that they found something suspicious in my body that they want to biopsy to take a look at.
When she told me that, I felt my heart beating very fast, and a knot forming in my stomach.
At the same time there was an underlying peace that I couldn't understand besides all the discomfort I felt.
I left that office with a calm that I could have never imagined to be there in a situation like this.
Now, when worrying thoughts arise, I just see them as such and ask myself to whom or what are they referring?
It's not easy, because I still can get caught, but as you stated that will still happen.
Anyway, any input from you to be able to crack through the layers of selfing would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much for your help and guidance.

[Elad]

Hi Elad.

Is this clear?

Yes, what helped me tremendously with this understanding was the exercise you gave me , comparing using or not using the "I" thought with happenings or activities.
It has helped a lot in situations where there were uncomfortable thoughts, and I just noticed thinking is happening without analyzing what the thoughts were saying.

Clear?

Yes, same thing based on prior conditioning thoughts happening pretending they are about a me or a situation, none of which can be found in direct experience.

Yes.

I would like to share with you a situation that I am in.
Yesterday I was told by a doctor that they found something suspicious in my body that they want to biopsy to take a look at.
When she told me that, I felt my heart beating very fast, and a knot forming in my stomach.
At the same time there was an underlying peace that I couldn't understand besides all the discomfort I felt.
I left that office with a calm that I could have never imagined to be there in a situation like this.
Now, when worrying thoughts arise, I just see them as such and ask myself to whom or what are they referring?
It's not easy, because I still can get caught, but as you stated that will still happen.

The process is clearly unfolding beautifully.

Here is another exercise to support the deepening clarity:


Introductory Body Exercise


Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

[Baremind255]

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, not in experience

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form

No, not in experience, the shape or form only exist when it's imagined.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No, there is a weight felt on the chair, but this is a conceptualization of a sensation, so there is actually no boundary there.

Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

No, outside or inside don't exist in experience. There are no boundaries.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

That is a very good question.
The experience of the body is just a bunch of sensations, but sensation, like the body, is a word that I am using to describe something that just is, something that is felt, but I truly don't know what it is and who is actually feeling?
It's unbelievable!!! Is this all made up? The grief and the pain that is there about the body's fate or future, all made up and so strongly believed! This is insane!

[Elad]

Beautiful!! Yes, tremendous pain comes from the belief that there is a body, that is separate and doing things by itself, and that is me.


Continue like this... Next exercise to look at:



Seeing Exercise - Part I

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc
We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on its own.
Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Seeing Exercise – Part II

Let's move on to opening the eyes now.
Again, address this very simply - The 'seeing' sense only for the moment.
With eyes open, a world of objects appears . . . a room . . . a computer screen etc
What you can specifically see isn't of interest here, and whatever it is, I am simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'.
This might be a little more tricky, but give it some consideration.

5) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?
6) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?
7) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?
8) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a Justin be found that is witnessing 'what can be seen'? Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found? What do you find?

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes, one hundred percent.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

No

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?

No, the experience is inherently the blackness itself
There is no experiencer of that . It's just that.

5) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?

Yes. As you mentioned, this is a little trickier, because as soon as I open my eyes, there is a feeling of a here and a there, but it's realized that even that is a subtle thought.

6) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?

No, there is just seeing,,not even the seen. The seen is the seeing itself.

Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?

No, there is no witnessing, seeing is just happening by itself, without anything apart from it.

8) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a Justin be found that is witnessing 'what can be seen'? Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found? What do you find

No eyes or I can be found, no Justin or in my case no Kathy is there.
If I peel the layers of the "onion" even further back, there isn't even seeing happening, because even that is a concept that I have been taught.
It truly is just this, that can't be defined or described by any concept.

[Elad]

Beautiful!

Is it true also for the other senses that they happen without a "perciever", i.e. in the seen only the seen, in the heard only the heard, in the cognized only the cognized....

Is it absolutely clear:

All sensing happens by itself
All movement happens by itself
All thought happens by itself

There is no center of experiencing
There is no doer no controller
There is no me no mine

?

If yes how does it feel "having crossed the gateless gate"?

If no, what is not clear?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

If yes how does it feel "having crossed the gateless gate"?

If no, what is not clear?

Experientially, it is very obvious that there isn't a separate self.
However, I don't feel that I have crossed the gateless gate yet.
I am still under the impression that there must be a "kensho-type" experience in order to have a clear shift in identity.
I no longer can believe my thoughts like I used to, and I can see them coming and going all by themselves. However, I still get caught and I forget this realization.
I also feel that there are a lot of subtle beliefs operating.
When I focus on sound for example, I still find that it is coming from somewhere "out there", eventhough I know that this is a subtle thought.
It's clear that there is no "hearer" of sound, but there is still a felt distance operating.
To answer your question , there is a lot of clarity, but also doubt still operating.
As I am writing this, I am asking who is the one doubting?
Doubt is apparently happening, why am I taking it personal again and identity as the " doubter"?
This mindmade sense of self is truly sneaky.

[Elad]

Experientially, it is very obvious that there isn't a separate self.

This is the main thing. Say more, how is it experientially obvious?

However, I don't feel that I have crossed the gateless gate yet.
I am still under the impression that there must be a "kensho-type" experience in order to have a clear shift in identity.

So right there are beliefs that are being held on to. It's like "I realized 1+1=2 but it didn't feel like a big aha moment, so I don't believe I reliezed it". For some people the realization has a kensho like quality ("rinzai style", since you are using Zen terminology). For others its more a gradual unnoticable change but one day you gotta admit it is completely clear that there is no real self there and the gate has been unnoticably crossed (more "Soto ish" style - crudly speaking, not identifying either tradition with one way of experiencing awakening for real). Its like some people jump in the pool and get wet, others walk in a wet fog for a long time, and at some point they discover they have become soaked through and through.

So if you dont hold on to fantasies about kensho, but rather look to what is your "personal intimate experience" (yes paradoks), is it clear or is it not?


What if no kensho happens like "you" imagined and this is it?

I no longer can believe my thoughts like I used to, and I can see them coming and going all by themselves. However, I still get caught and I forget this realization.

Completely normal. Practically everyone do not experience full enduring liberation as a one time thing. I personally know nobody close up for whom that is/was the case.


This also connects to what some call fetter 4 and 5, about reactivity. It doesn't stop because the first 3 fetters fall (basically a clear seeing of no separate self).

I also feel that there are a lot of subtle beliefs operating.
When I focus on sound for example, I still find that it is coming from somewhere "out there", eventhough I know that this is a subtle thought.

This connects to fetter 6, which is beyond seing through the belief in self. Its the further deconditioning and full realization of non-dual experience.

It's clear that there is no "hearer" of sound, but there is still a felt distance operating.

Again fetter 6

Also, for practical purposes of life, we need to be able to have a sense of location, here and there, me and you, direction of sound, etc. Its kind of like this:

The realization of no self is like realizing that there is no stable enduring and real "here", that "here" is always just a word, a thought, a way of thinking, orienting and speaking, that makes sense in the conventional functioning of life. So it's not like we stop having a sense of "here" and "self" and they are part of thoughts and speech, its that it is clearly realized that they do not point to anything ultimately real and separate, outside of their use within conventional communication and orientation, "the relative". We see clearly that "here" and "I" is not an agent doing anything, responsible for anything, it is just designation for practical purposes. And the designating also happens by itself.

To answer your question , there is a lot of clarity, but also doubt still operating.
As I am writing this, I am asking who is the one doubting?
Doubt is apparently happening, why am I taking it personal again and identity as the " doubter"?
This mindmade sense of self is truly sneaky.

Is there actually any belief at all that there is a doubter? Or just thoughts of doubt come and go by themselves like everything else?