See the sought

[Bluejay]

I am doing another online silent retreat today through Sunday. I will use these suggestions in my inquiry practice!

Sounds good. Let me know how it goes :)

[tia22]

On break at retreat and there is this pressure in my chest. A burning to get to the root of this “I” that has taken ownership of this life.
When there are thoughts this presence/awareness feels the same as when there are no thoughts. It is the same thing, but I have always called it “me”. When I look for a me in direct experience nothing jumps up and says “here I am” except for thoughts. Thoughts are the only aspect of this experience that can claim “I”. It has been seen clearly that experience of I only exists in thought. The thought of I doesn’t actually refer to anything except for other thoughts. I can’t tell if this is conceptual or not.

[Bluejay]

When there are thoughts this presence/awareness feels the same as when there are no thoughts. It is the same thing, but I have always called it “me”. When I look for a me in direct experience nothing jumps up and says “here I am” except for thoughts. Thoughts are the only aspect of this experience that can claim “I”. It has been seen clearly that experience of I only exists in thought. The thought of I doesn’t actually refer to anything except for other thoughts. I can’t tell if this is conceptual or not.

So when there is a thought that claims "I", look for the sense of self.

A question that might help: Does the I exist in any physical shape or form?

And your friendly reminder: Don't look for answers in thoughts, but stay with the question, just looking.

[tia22]

And your friendly reminder: Don't look for answers in thoughts, but stay with the question, just looking

A much needed reminder. Thank you

But, what is looking? What is experiencing and asking and seeking?
When “I” step back and just look- doesn’t there need to be some”thing” that is looking and searching? I can’t find “it” but there is awareness of this movement, looking.

I appreciate your patience and your time more than you know. This all may seem very redundant. I am probably asking the same questions over and over. I’m sorry 😣

[tia22]

It is seen right now that looking happens, questioning happens, searching happens. Apparently there does not need to be a someone or something to do that. Wow
There is nothing here that is in control of anything.

[Bluejay]

A much needed reminder. Thank you

But, what is looking? What is experiencing and asking and seeking?
When “I” step back and just look- doesn’t there need to be some”thing” that is looking and searching? I can’t find “it” but there is awareness of this movement, looking.

It is seen right now that looking happens, questioning happens, searching happens. Apparently there does not need to be a someone or something to do that. Wow
There is nothing here that is in control of anything.

Good exploration!

What is it that steps back?

And which entity is looking for "it" but can't find it?

[tia22]

What is it that steps back?

And which entity is looking for "it" but can't find it?

I see that thought creates the perception of stepping back to look at things and that thought is searching for something beyond itself, but can not see that is it searching within the confine’s of it’s own delusion. Yesterday I had an experience of what it may be like to see through the self illusion. Just a little taste.
I am feeling back to “normal” today, but with more clarity on how beliefs may be making this process more challenging. I was reading about the 1st fetter on Kevin Shanalec’s website about the empirical impermanent self. I see that much of the illusion is being upheld by my new shiny belief that there is no permanent me, but there is a SENSE of me that arises with thought. Thus still a belief in a me that comes and goes. You have pointed to this many times, but I didn’t quite get it. Thank you for your tireless attempts to point me to my own delusions, I want to see through this now. Will you show me the way? If that means starting completely over from the beginning with pointing exercises or going in a completely different direction, I’m ready. I so deeply appreciate your time and patience with me throughout this process. ♥️ thank you so so much

[Bluejay]

I see that thought creates the perception of stepping back to look at things and that thought is searching for something beyond itself, but can not see that is it searching within the confine’s of it’s own delusion. Yesterday I had an experience of what it may be like to see through the self illusion. Just a little taste.

Can you describe the little taste you experienced?

I am feeling back to “normal” today, but with more clarity on how beliefs may be making this process more challenging. I was reading about the 1st fetter on Kevin Shanalec’s website about the empirical impermanent self. I see that much of the illusion is being upheld by my new shiny belief that there is no permanent me, but there is a SENSE of me that arises with thought. Thus still a belief in a me that comes and goes. You have pointed to this many times, but I didn’t quite get it. Thank you for your tireless attempts to point me to my own delusions, I want to see through this now. Will you show me the way? If that means starting completely over from the beginning with pointing exercises or going in a completely different direction, I’m ready. I so deeply appreciate your time and patience with me throughout this process. ♥️ thank you so so much

That's what I'm here for--to keep pointing :)

It's excellent that you're able to notice the sense of me, and to realize that it means that the belief is still in place.

When does this sense of me arise?

What is it claiming to do?

[tia22]

Can you describe the little taste you experienced?

I can try. After a desperate inquiry into beliefs around a “me” and what that feels like, it felt like a very subtle dropping away of something. Almost like a reference point? Everything felt much the same except a couple of changes in perception. There was no concern about thoughts. There were thoughts there, sometimes attention was in thoughts, but nothing “cared”. There was no solid meaning taken from thoughts. There was a feeling of openness- a lack of guardedness. There was a realization that everything was just happening, and sense of excitement about what was gonna come next without expectation or sense of a “planner” or moderator. I completely lost interest in listening to or doing anything regarding non-duality. Everything felt very immediate- there didn’t seem to be deviation from right now.
I woke up this morning and feel back to normal, but with a kind of red hot desperation to see through this illusion.

That's what I'm here for--to keep pointing :)

I just appreciate it so much! The desire and will to do this seem to wax and wane so much. I really want to strike while the iron is hot!

It's excellent that you're able to notice the sense of me, and to realize that it means that the belief is still in place.

When does this sense of me arise?

The sense of me arises with thoughts that refer to a “me”. Or thoughts regarding other people and things- there can’t be other people unless there is a me to stand apart from them. Is this seriously a misunderstanding though? If there is no me and has never been a me, then how would I know what a me feels like? When I ask “where is the me” and look… and look. I never find anything. I don’t even know what I’m looking for. Oh, shit, the me is the “one” looking. But if I try to look at that there is nothing there. The only time a “me” pops up seems to be in thought and doership. It does feel like the mind is what’s looking when I pay close attention though, not really me🤔

What is it claiming to do?

I’m not sure.
Omg this is kind of unraveling though. Some part of me does not believe in this anymore. If I’m being honest, I don’t feel the me claims to do anything. I feel like thoughts claim to do things, but I have believed that thoughts were me for almost my whole life… so I am new to the truth that thoughts are not me or mine.
But could this just be a new belief? A belief “there is no me” just like the belief “the me only appears with thought”. This is sticky and trippy shit

[tia22]

Ok, so here is a twist that I was not expecting. I have been on retreat for 3.5 days and have been doing intense internal looking without the usual stress or distraction from external forces. I have been in a hotel by myself, so complete solitude and focus. The retreat is coming to a close tomorrow, so thoughts about work popped up and a VERY overwhelming sense of self jumped into protection mode. The Tia that needs to act a certain way, talk a certain way, and can’t be trusted to do things right without monitoring by the “self”. It seems to be armored in fear. It almost makes internal looking become very hazy and indiscernible. I knew that social interaction has always brought out a certain persona and involved masking of certain parts but, WHOA. I’ve never noticed such a stark difference between Tia’s internal world and external. I don’t know what to make of this.

[Bluejay]

Thanks for sharing!

I’m not sure.
Omg this is kind of unraveling though. Some part of me does not believe in this anymore. If I’m being honest, I don’t feel the me claims to do anything. I feel like thoughts claim to do things, but I have believed that thoughts were me for almost my whole life… so I am new to the truth that thoughts are not me or mine.
But could this just be a new belief? A belief “there is no me” just like the belief “the me only appears with thought”.

The important thing now is to stay focused on any sense of self.

The sense of me arises with thoughts that refer to a “me”. Or thoughts regarding other people and things- there can’t be other people unless there is a me to stand apart from them. Is this seriously a misunderstanding though? If there is no me and has never been a me, then how would I know what a me feels like? When I ask “where is the me” and look… and look. I never find anything. I don’t even know what I’m looking for. Oh, shit, the me is the “one” looking. But if I try to look at that there is nothing there. The only time a “me” pops up seems to be in thought and doership. It does feel like the mind is what’s looking when I pay close attention though, not really me🤔

Yes, in direct experience you won't find a 'me', so it's crucial to stay focused on the sense of self.

Also notice any conceptualization and trying to grasp this intellectually. The only thing that is needed is to observe and look, because you won't find answers in figuring this out.

In other words, you don't have to worry (think) about any of this. Just look and then if something happens, it happens.

You don't want to establish a new belief in 'there is no me, because right now you just can't find it. This doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means you can't find it.

That's why it's important to continue the inquiry until it is absolutely clear that there is no self. And this clarity is not in our control. It is an insight that arises on its own.

Ok, so here is a twist that I was not expecting. I have been on retreat for 3.5 days and have been doing intense internal looking without the usual stress or distraction from external forces. I have been in a hotel by myself, so complete solitude and focus. The retreat is coming to a close tomorrow, so thoughts about work popped up and a VERY overwhelming sense of self jumped into protection mode. The Tia that needs to act a certain way, talk a certain way, and can’t be trusted to do things right without monitoring by the “self”. It seems to be armored in fear. It almost makes internal looking become very hazy and indiscernible. I knew that social interaction has always brought out a certain persona and involved masking of certain parts but, WHOA. I’ve never noticed such a stark difference between Tia’s internal world and external. I don’t know what to make of this.

How exactly is the 'self' monitoring things?

Where is the entity that monitors and makes sure Tia needs to act and talk a certain way?

Also not related to inquiry: Has the need to monitor how you act and talk always been there?

[tia22]

Yes, in direct experience you won't find a 'me', so it's crucial to stay focused on the sense of self

.
Yes, this is what I need to remember - stay in direct experience and keep focused on SENSE of self. Where is it? Does it come and go? Where does it arise from? Where does it seem to go to? Ask questions and then look only in direct experience.

Also notice any conceptualization and trying to grasp this intellectually. The only thing that is needed is to observe and look, because you won't find answers in figuring this out.

Another vital point. I notice that there is only seconds to maybe a minute in which attention seems to be able to stay in direct experience, before attention moves into thought. I have yet to catch this transition as it happens. It’s like attention is put into a trance by thought.

In other words, you don't have to worry (think) about any of this. Just look and then if something happens, it happens.

And don’t get caught in the narrative of the mind’s interpretation of what’s happening. I’ll do my best

You don't want to establish a new belief in 'there is no me, because right now you just can't find it. This doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means you can't find it.

Right, search without assumptions or expectations.

That's why it's important to continue the inquiry until it is absolutely clear that there is no self. And this clarity is not in our control. It is an insight that arises on its own.

I’ll inquire into the one who feels like it can control this situation and speed things up, or figure it out.

How exactly is the 'self' monitoring things?

Well, it turns out it was a particularly convincing thought, with a lot of emotional charge to really drive the intensity up in the body. Fascinating. It’s especially surprising that I can seemingly have clarity around some of this and it just takes a single, emotionally charged thought to completely throw me into panic and doubt.

Where is the entity that monitors and makes sure Tia needs to act and talk a certain way?

It is my thoughts.

Also not related to inquiry: Has the need to monitor how you act and talk always been there?

It has been there for as long as I can remember and, blind belief in these “control thoughts” has caused immeasurable pain and avoidance behaviors in my life. Well avoidance of the feelings associated with these thoughts. They are my impetus to wake up

[tia22]

Another interesting thing- the “sense of me” has only been found in the mind/thought space. Thus the inquiry into the sense of me is spent in that spaceless space of mind/thought. Even the one inquiring is seen to be a thought. You might think this is when a shift would happen, but that would be a thought 😂
It’s funny how it has been noticed that the sense of me has the signature texture and movement of a thought. But, that’s just a thought as well.
It is an endless circle of thoughts. My whole universe is made of thoughts. I feel like there is somewhere else I need to go. But not sure “where” that is or how to orient to it. I feel afraid… I know that will be a venture I can only take alone.

[tia22]

I do have one question that has been really tying me up;
Angelo DiLullo is basically “my guru” for all things awakening and realization. I have sought out information from other teachers/ resources, but I resonate with Angelo and Adyanshanti the most. They seem the most clear, direct and free of self (whatever that actually means).
Angelo often talks about the “I am sense” which I think is interchangeable with another term he uses- unbound consciousness.
He often says as approaching awakening you can rest in the “I am” sense. This feels very contradictory and confusing to me, in as much that with our work I am consistently questioning any sense of “me”. So I’m like; is there an “I am” sense that is basically the gateway to my true nature or, should I be trying to see through any sense of I am?
Should I rest there or is accepting the I am sense just confirming an illusion and keeping me stuck? Maybe its just the language that he uses that seems so contradictory to me. Any clarification will be very helpful for this chaotic mind.
https://youtu.be/dcPE8HPKYUA?si=T_924rMxXAGpTdQr

[Bluejay]

Angelo DiLullo is basically “my guru” for all things awakening and realization. I have sought out information from other teachers/ resources, but I resonate with Angelo and Adyanshanti the most. They seem the most clear, direct and free of self (whatever that actually means).
Angelo often talks about the “I am sense” which I think is interchangeable with another term he uses- unbound consciousness.
He often says as approaching awakening you can rest in the “I am” sense. This feels very contradictory and confusing to me, in as much that with our work I am consistently questioning any sense of “me”. So I’m like; is there an “I am” sense that is basically the gateway to my true nature or, should I be trying to see through any sense of I am?
Should I rest there or is accepting the I am sense just confirming an illusion and keeping me stuck? Maybe its just the language that he uses that seems so contradictory to me. Any clarification will be very helpful for this chaotic mind.

During our inquiry, I recommend you not take in other material, because as you've noticed, it leads to confusion.

Each approach has its own framework and ideas, so mixing it together often leads to confusion.

If you are interested in working with me, focus just on this method of inquiry. Later, you can do something else. Does that sound OK?

Inquiry questions:

1. Is there an I in the sense of I (or I am)?

2. What is it that is going to rest in its true nature?

It has been there for as long as I can remember and, blind belief in these “control thoughts” has caused immeasurable pain and avoidance behaviors in my life. Well avoidance of the feelings associated with these thoughts. They are my impetus to wake up

You might be neurodiverse. I had the same kind of control thoughts. Monitoring and controlling one's behavior is common in neurodiverse people.