Hi, guide needed:-)

[PeterCs]

Hi Silvia,

from my perspective, when a feeling is pleasant, it is simple pleasant. There is no decision about that. I cannot feel a pleasant feeling and then switch it to unpleasant. The same with bad. Feeling pain is unpleasant to me. I cannot switch a pain to a pleasant feeling. You know what I mean? Pain is painful. What is pleasant in it?

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Peter,

Did I say that you should be able to turn unpleasant sensations into pleasant sensations??? No, I didn't. There is no separate you/entity deciding or labelling anything, so how would that be done anyway?

Read my last post and try again.

Look carefully at the sensations arising. As they arise, are they pleasant or unpleasant? Do they come pre-labelled or does the labelling happen straight after? How does the labelling happen?

What happens when you drop the labels and just stay with the sensations. Answer these and my last questions, from whatever sensations you are experiencing at present.

S x

[PeterCs]

Hi Silvia,

I am stuck with that. At that time when I was writing the "suffering" post I had fever and repeated halucinations came up. Now I try to recall bad or good feelings/thoughts, but it seems it does not work. Just an example: I bought trousers last Saturday. They are nice but not comfortable, so yesterday I decided that I will go back to the shop and ask if I can change them for another one - something that is more comfortable to wear for me. It feels to be unpleasant a bit to go back to the shop and ask for a change and then looking for a new trousers there. Thoughts like: What if I find nothing better and they will not give me money back because of their policy? What if I again choose something that finally will not fit and I spend so much money for that? What if the shop assistant will think that I do not know what I want? ...this thoughts causing a different feeling in stomach. Nothing serious, it is a pity situation but although that it is felt as unpleasant.

The unpleasament comes from the expectation that "I" should always know what "I" want, "I" have to make always good decisions, always to know what is right"I" had to be simply perfect. ...everything that misses that expectation is causing an unpleasant feeling. Sometimes I hear my mum's voice in my head: "Do you know what you want? ...because it seems you do not.".

[PeterCs]

It is all about that"I", "me", as usual;-)

When I leave everything as is and I just relax - just sitting, hearing sounds, seeing, feeling body sensations, thoughts chatting... then feeling of peace cames up and I start falling asleep. Is it OK?

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Peter, you haven't answered any of the questions.

[PeterCs]

...because I do not know.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Because you are not looking...

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi again Peter, I didn't see your post before last earlier. I have read it now and will get back to you later.

S

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Peter, like I said earlier you are not looking.

All those thoughts that you described above, why don't you look at them and ask the questions I gave you?

The same for the emotions or feelings of something pleasant or unpleasant.
Just LOOK at them, and ASK the questions. It really is a simple as that.

So here are the questions again;

And apart from another thought that says, this is a bad feeling, or this is a bad thought, is there anything in direct experience that tells you the thought or the feeling are bad?
Try to recall a bad feeling and thought. Is there anything in direct experience that says that they are bad or unpleasant? There might be another thought saying those things, but is there any truth in it? Can a thought think? Or is it more like an automatic response?
Now try the same by recalling a good or pleasant feeling and thought. Look and ask the same questions.

Now watch, are you the thinker of these thoughts? Can you find a thinker of the thoughts?
Watch the feelings and emotions. Are you making them happen? Are they permanent? Are they good or bad; pleasant or unpleasant? or are those labels even more thoughts? Can you find a person to whom the feelings are happening to?

Look carefully at the sensations arising. As they arise, are they pleasant or unpleasant? Do they come pre-labelled or does the labelling happen straight after? How does the labelling happen?

What happens when you drop the labels and just stay with the sensations. Answer these and my last questions, from whatever sensations you are experiencing at present.

LOOK!

[PeterCs]

HI Silvia,

I really struggle with this now. What do you mean when you say "recall a bad feeling or a thought"? What do you mean when you say "look"? - maybe I need to refresh the understanding of the meaning in that context.

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

recall = remember

Look means look! If I say look at your computer you understand what I mean, no? It's the same with thoughts and emotions. They are mental objects. So all I'm asking you to do is look at those objects and observe them.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

The questions I gave you are pointers to help you focus your observations. They are like clues. So just look at the thoughts and emotions as if they were objects like a computer or an apple. Then answer from what you SEE in your direct experience. It's very simple! and it requires no effort. The same way looking at your computer requires no effort.

[PeterCs]

Try to recall a bad feeling and thought. Is there anything in direct experience that says that they are bad or unpleasant?

There is only an automated thought that says it is bad/unpleasant. Like a learnt thing.

There might be another thought saying those things, but is there any truth in it? There might be another thought saying those things, but is there any truth in it? Can a thought think? Or is it more like an automatic response?

There seems to be only a believe that it is true. It has never been questioned, only automatically accepted as true.

Can a thought think?

What do you mean with your question above? Do you mean for example if a thought can „decide“ if something is good or bad?

Thoughts seems to be finished, already done. For example now hearing voice in the head - it comes come up and go away.

Now try the same by recalling a good or pleasant feeling and thought. Look and ask the same questions.

It is the same as with the bad/upleasant. No difference.

Now watch, are you the thinker of these thoughts?

There is a thought that responses with YES, but it itself has just come up from nowhere, without any expectation.

Watch the feelings and emotions. Are you making them happen?

No. 100% sure.

Are they permanent?

Haha:-). No way. They are not permanent. They are so changeable.

Are they good or bad; pleasant or unpleasant? or are those labels even more thoughts?

At this point I am loosing a bit the difference between pleasant and unpleasant. What I am sure about: they are what they are regardless of labeling them pleasant/unpleasant.

Can you find a person to whom the feelings are happening to?

A thought says: YES. ...but no person found. How that person should look like?

Look carefully at the sensations arising. As they arise, are they pleasant or unpleasant? Do they come pre-labelled or does the labelling happen straight after? How does the labelling happen?

For example now feeling hot. A thought says: it is unpleasant, but looking at it it is okay. ...I mean it looks like it has no unpleasant/pleasant quality in itself.

What happens when you drop the labels and just stay with the sensations.

...peace, or something like that is felt. They are okay as they are.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Peter,

Great stuff.

There seems to be only a believe that it is true. It has never been questioned, only automatically accepted as true.

Excellent. Explore this further as you go about your day. Pay special attention to habitual thoughts, both "positive" and "negative". Question them, are they true? Then try to find examples that prove the opposite of what the thoughts actually say. Is not about trying to turn negative into positive or viceversa, but about realising that thoughts do not equal reality. Let me know what comes up for you from this exercise.

Thoughts seems to be finished, already done. For example now hearing voice in the head - it comes come up and go away.

Exactly! :-) But often we attribute thoughts abilities they do not have. For example, what makes decisions?

Place 2 different items of food in front on a table (or drinks if you're thirsty). Look at them for a few minutes. Observe what happens. Watch feelings, emotions, and thoughts arise. Then eat or drink one of the two items.
How did the choice happen?
Who or what decided to pick one item and not the other?
Could you find a chooser?
What happened first the decision or the thought that said I'm going to drink/eat this?
Was it really a decision or a choice?
Can you chose a choice?

What happens when you drop the labels and just stay with the sensations.

...peace, or something like that is felt. They are okay as they are.

That's right, when we stay with whatever is happening without resistance, there is peace.
What happens when you stay with whatever thoughts are arising without resistance? Without grabing them or pushing them away?

Who is the Peter character that the thoughts so often talk about? Does he exist? Is it You?

Great answers today Peter. Remember as you go through this questions that looking takes no effort. Seeing takes no effort.

Much love
S

[PeterCs]

There seems to be only a believe that it is true. It has never been questioned, only automatically accepted as true.

Excellent. Explore this further as you go about your day. Pay special attention to habitual thoughts, both "positive" and "negative". Question them, are they true? Then try to find examples that prove the opposite of what the thoughts actually say. Is not about trying to turn negative into positive or viceversa, but about realising that thoughts do not equal reality. Let me know what comes up for you from this exercise.

I have realized that the habitual thoughts refer to the past, to memories.

When I ask them if they are true, I get the same „automated“ response: „It is bad.“, „It is good.“, but in the direct experience there is neither bad nor good seen. For example. I have slept for 2 hours this afternoon. Now a thought says, that it is „bad“ to sleep during a day. Ok, show if it is really bad! – Nothing seen. I look at the bed where I was sleeping, but neither „bad“ nor „good“ found. That „bad“ / „good“ is only in the head.

Thoughts seems to be finished, already done. For example now hearing voice in the head - it comes come up and go away.

Exactly! :-) But often we attribute thoughts abilities they do not have. For example, what makes decisions?

Place 2 different items of food in front on a table (or drinks if you're thirsty). Look at them for a few minutes. Observe what happens. Watch feelings, emotions, and thoughts arise. Then eat or drink one of the two items.
How did the choice happen?
Who or what decided to pick one item and not the other?
Could you find a chooser?
What happened first the decision or the thought that said I'm going to drink/eat this?
Was it really a decision or a choice?
Can you chose a choice?

There were thoughts which item to pick, like a „battle“ – „This smells so good.“, „This is more healthy than that one.“ „What about to eat both of them?“ „Ok, this will be the first, that the second to be picked up.“ And finally the „take“ action happend. It happend spontaneosly.

There was a strong belief that I was „making a decision“ because of those thoughts.

Hey man! ...just realized This is tricky!:-) You wanted to me to choose one item of the two items. ...but I have no clue why those „2 items“ were chosen for the exercise. It happend spontaneosly without thinking (or I do not remember it was thinking about at all). I only opened the fridge and automatically chose items for the test. This decision/choice seems to be only a story. An explanation what is going on, what and why happend.

What happens when you drop the labels and just stay with the sensations.

...peace, or something like that is felt. They are okay as they are.

That's right, when we stay with whatever is happening without resistance, there is peace.
What happens when you stay with whatever thoughts are arising without resistance? Without grabing them or pushing them away?

Relaxation is experienced. Everything is going on.

Who is the Peter character that the thoughts so often talk about? Does he exist? Is it You?

It seems to be a character that lives only in the world built up by the thoughts. For example:
„Peter will be looking for a new job.“ = Images about job interviews from the past pop up. An image about clothes he wears there; how he goes on the street; what he feels, sees.
"Peter is doing body workouts in order to get shapped" - an image how the body should look like pop up; images of doing workouts
"Peter is writing this" - he chooses words, make corrections, thinking about how to express his ideas, observations