Is it possible to see this?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:14 am

If it's possible to see that there is no me in some other way besides intellectually, I can't seem to find it.
It definitely wont happen intellectually.
Would it be accurate to say that all of the questions in all of the threads, you have considered intellectually and arrived at an intellectual answer ?
i have 'felt' you to be close on several occasions. Is it possible that when you get close, that something (fear?) pulls you back to a safe intellectual 'position' ?
At times I'm answering intellectually, at times not, it depends on what I'm being asked, probably. If someone asks me to look at my experience, or to do something, I do.

As for your second question, there is no fear of seeing that there is no self. I don't why it is that I have been looking at this for months and can't see it, but fear isn't the answer, I'm not afraid of any of this.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:07 pm

At times I'm answering intellectually, at times not,
Ok, so you Can see the difference between the two ways of LOOKING.
Without doubt you have been exposed to more than enough pointings (questions) to trigger a shift, an awakening, but the first time you were exposed to them, something happened to disarm them.
Go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading it, but with a constant awareness present, focusing on the experiencing that each question stimulates.
Go slowly (mind will want to rush to finish the job)
Read the question and consider elements of it (not just the whole) Imagine that the answer is not the answer, but the answer is in your response to the question. We are not looking to share knowledge here.
When you remember the question, and probably the answer you concluded last time, just acknowledge that and look freshly at experiencing that is happening NOW (as you revisit each question) Don't consult your previous answers.
Post your fresh responses.
The slower you work through them (while constantly doing it) the better. Don't rush, you may not even get all of the way through them before a 'shift' occurs.
there is no fear of seeing that there is no self
Ah, excellent. Mind will, overtly or covertly attempt to derail change. It hangs on to the familiar. Keeping you in the intellectual is how it is doing it for you, and even glimpses are immediately discounted. It believes it is protecting you. We can't stop this, but we can recognise symptoms of it. (boredom, annoyance, frustration & lots of other emotions)
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:34 am

At times I'm answering intellectually, at times not,
Ok, so you Can see the difference between the two ways of LOOKING.
Without doubt you have been exposed to more than enough pointings (questions) to trigger a shift, an awakening, but the first time you were exposed to them, something happened to disarm them.
Go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading it, but with a constant awareness present, focusing on the experiencing that each question stimulates.
Go slowly (mind will want to rush to finish the job)
Read the question and consider elements of it (not just the whole) Imagine that the answer is not the answer, but the answer is in your response to the question. We are not looking to share knowledge here.
When you remember the question, and probably the answer you concluded last time, just acknowledge that and look freshly at experiencing that is happening NOW (as you revisit each question) Don't consult your previous answers.
Post your fresh responses.
The slower you work through them (while constantly doing it) the better. Don't rush, you may not even get all of the way through them before a 'shift' occurs.
Oops, I did what you suggested, except I didn't notice that part about posting my fresh responses. I just answered the questions again to myself.

So.... do you want me to answer them a third time, and this time post the responses?

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:52 am

You were very fast. Did you dwell in each pointer ?
Just post any fresh SEEing.
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Empty Mirror
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby Empty Mirror » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:22 am

At times I'm answering intellectually, at times not, it depends on what I'm being asked, probably. If someone asks me to look at my experience, or to do something, I do.
I think that perhaps you're misunderstanding what's being asked of you xyzzy.

Vince is asking for reports from direct experience . When he says answer only from direct experience he means that you're not allowed to use "thought stories". There is a good reason for this. The reason is because by doing so you might discover that you are not the thinker of thoughts, and if that is true then obviously thought can not be trusted in a search for the truth.

Just so that you clearly understand what I mean, here is an example:

Sit in a chair and close your eyes. Now describe to yourself what you KNOW in the moment, and only what you know. That means look ONLY at true and direct experience, and not any thought stories about the experience.
Do you experience sitting in a chair?
Do you experience sitting?
Do you experience having a body?

An incorrect answer would be. I feel my butt on the chair and hear the sound of birds in the back yard, because you've added the story of a person's butt on a chair, and the story of birds in the back yard, and you haven't even mentioned the running comentary of thought that is also going on all the time.

You have to ignore the thought stories and describe ONLY direct experience.

If you do, you will find that direct experience does not tell you that you are sitting in a chair. Direct experience would be that you would feel pressure on your butt, but without thought (including memory thoughts) telling any story, all you can say is that there is sensation which is interpreted by thought to be coming from your butt. So in actual fact, from direct experiential evidence, and without using thought stories, you can not say that you are sitting on a chair, and you can not even say that you have a butt.

So the correct answer would be that there is just sensation that feels like pressure but can't be located, there's blackness, there are chirping sounds appearing in this blackness, and there are thoughts appearing out of nowhere that are telling a story about the direct experience, and then fading away into nowhere again.

Do you see the major difference between the two versions? One is looking at the thought story about what is being experienced, and the other is just looking at direct experience.

It's this direct experience that you need to stay focused on during this investigation.

What we're getting to here is NOT some kind of intellectual idea or psychological trick. We're talking about REALLY discovering that there REALLY AND TRULY is no "personal I".

It seems completely impossible, but as soon as things are clear, then it's completely obvious that there never was a personal "I". So stick with direct evidence and stay with the enquiry.

This is really NOT a load of silly psychological trickery, it's something that's been realised throughout the ages and across all cultures, and it has very profound and amazing ramifications. It's also been realised by many completely on their own, and without ever having this pointed out to them, so it's not some sort of 'hypnosis' either.

We're looking to see whether there really is a thinker of thoughts.

It seems completely impossible that all of this thinking and doing can go on without anybody doing it, but it's not impossible at all. In dreams there is loads of apparent thinking and doing, but upon awakening it's completely clear that there was nobody really thinking and doing anything. It was all just a manifestation of consciousness.

Do you see that there is no particular logic that says that thoughts have to be thought by a thinker? The ONLY reason that you think it's logical is because thought says that it's logical.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:07 pm

You were very fast. Did you dwell in each pointer ?
Just post any fresh SEEing.
Well, it took a number of hours. Nothing really noteworthy happened, though. Sometimes my answers were different from the first time I gave them, but I didn't have any responses which were different from the general things I've been saying and reporting in this thread.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:25 pm

At times I'm answering intellectually, at times not, it depends on what I'm being asked, probably. If someone asks me to look at my experience, or to do something, I do.
I think that perhaps you're misunderstanding what's being asked of you xyzzy.

Vince is asking for reports from direct experience . When he says answer only from direct experience he means that you're not allowed to use "thought stories". There is a good reason for this. The reason is because by doing so you might discover that you are not the thinker of thoughts, and if that is true then obviously thought can not be trusted in a search for the truth.

[snip]

We're looking to see whether there really is a thinker of thoughts.

It seems completely impossible that all of this thinking and doing can go on without anybody doing it, but it's not impossible at all. In dreams there is loads of apparent thinking and doing, but upon awakening it's completely clear that there was nobody really thinking and doing anything. It was all just a manifestation of consciousness.

Do you see that there is no particular logic that says that thoughts have to be thought by a thinker? The ONLY reason that you think it's logical is because thought says that it's logical.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying about looking at direct experience. A lot of the questions being asked of me can't be answered just from direct experience, though, they are necessarily questions which require a mental answer.

About whether thoughts have to have a thinker, my intellectual response is that there is something which is controlling thoughts, or else they wouldn't be ordered and wouldn't make any sense. I don't think that that something is me, though. I think there's something operating in the background which causes thoughts to appear organized into sentences, because clearly I am not doing that.

Trying to look at thoughts in direct experience is difficult, as I've mentioned before in this thread, because paying attention to them changes them. They slow down and stop, or the same word repeats over and over.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:19 pm

What we're getting to here is NOT some kind of intellectual idea or psychological trick. We're talking about REALLY discovering that there REALLY AND TRULY is no "personal I".

It seems completely impossible, but as soon as things are clear, then it's completely obvious that there never was a personal "I". So stick with direct evidence and stay with the enquiry.

This is really NOT a load of silly psychological trickery, it's something that's been realised throughout the ages and across all cultures, and it has very profound and amazing ramifications. It's also been realised by many completely on their own, and without ever having this pointed out to them, so it's not some sort of 'hypnosis' either.
Intellectually, it seems completely clear to me that there is no I. It's only intellectual, though, and it doesn't affect my actual experience in any way. It feels like there is a me, and the feeling is that I know there is a me, and this me has various qualities and so on.

I've been looking at this in every way I can think of for the past 4 months, across 4 different threads, 2 here, 2 on the truthstrike board (this is the only one I'm now posting in). I know the idea is to look at my actual experience, and I do this, and I also try to figure it out intellectually, although by now I realize figuring it out intellectually does no good. Nothing works, though. If it's possible to see this, in some non intellectual way, for some reason it's not happening.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:01 am

do you mind it Empty Mirror joins in ?
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:02 am

do you mind it Empty Mirror joins in ?
That's fine with me, it's three on one, after all.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:54 am

Ok, i've rustled up 3 fresh guides to bring a new perspective to this.
You'd better put your seat belt on...
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Empty Mirror
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby Empty Mirror » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:18 am

Intellectually, it seems completely clear to me that there is no I. It's only intellectual, though, and it doesn't affect my actual experience in any way.
Ok, so if it's completely intellectually clear that there is no I then what are you? If there's no thinker of thoughts what does the intellect say that you are?
It feels like there is a me, and the feeling is that I know there is a me, and this me has various qualities and so on.
Can you describe this "feeling that there is a me"? What does it feel like? Try not to use any thought stories in this description. Try to describe the exact sensation of what a "me" feels like. And keep a check on how much of that description is a thought story when reporting back please.
I've been looking at this in every way I can think of for the past 4 months, across 4 different threads, 2 here, 2 on the truthstrike board (this is the only one I'm now posting in).
Ok, please keep it that way while we go through this investigation.
I know the idea is to look at my actual experience, and I do this, and I also try to figure it out intellectually, although by now I realize figuring it out intellectually does no good.
We're not asking you to give us any intellectual thought story in this process, we're only asking for you to report direct experience. We'll get to the intellectual part later.
Nothing works, though. If it's possible to see this, in some non intellectual way, for some reason it's not happening.
That's because you're only looking at it the intellectual thought stories, and are not reporting PURELY direct experiential evidence. There is a good reason why we ask you to stick to PURE direct experiential evidence when reporting back to us. It's because that is the only thing that you KNOW is 'true' - direct experiential evidence. To get to the truth you have to stick only to what you KNOW is true direct experiential evidence. So please do your very best to stick only to reporting direct experiential evidence, with as few thought stories as possible.

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dreamer
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby dreamer » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:03 pm

Hi!
Yeah, I understand what you're saying about looking at direct experience. A lot of the questions being asked of me can't be answered just from direct experience, though, they are necessarily questions which require a mental answer.
This is just a thought. Currently in the way of your wish to see the 'I' illusion. That is something I KNOW. Everything you stubble upon or are asked can be answered from Direct Experience. That is what we ask of you. Tell me what you feel about looking in to Direct Experience.

Vivi

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:43 pm

Hi!

This is just a thought. Currently in the way of your wish to see the 'I' illusion. That is something I KNOW. Everything you stubble upon or are asked can be answered from Direct Experience. That is what we ask of you. Tell me what you feel about looking in to Direct Experience.

Vivi
Hi dreamer (or is it Vivi?).

I don't really have any feelings about looking into direct experience. I have done this many times during these various threads, I believe. Usually people would ask me to look at my actual experience and see if there is a me, or to see that there is no me. So I would look and see, ok, physical sensations, sounds, sights, whatever emotions I might be feelings, and I wouldn't see any me anywhere. But I wouldn't see that there is no me.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:59 pm

Ok, so if it's completely intellectually clear that there is no I then what are you? If there's no thinker of thoughts what does the intellect say that you are?
There's just this experience, there isn't a separate I having it or controlling it or whatever.
Can you describe this "feeling that there is a me"? What does it feel like? Try not to use any thought stories in this description. Try to describe the exact sensation of what a "me" feels like. And keep a check on how much of that description is a thought story when reporting back please.
It's actually a knowing rather than a feeling; that is, it feels like I know that there is a me. The experience is that I know there is a me.
That's because you're only looking at it the intellectual thought stories, and are not reporting PURELY direct experiential evidence. There is a good reason why we ask you to stick to PURE direct experiential evidence when reporting back to us. It's because that is the only thing that you KNOW is 'true' - direct experiential evidence. To get to the truth you have to stick only to what you KNOW is true direct experiential evidence. So please do your very best to stick only to reporting direct experiential evidence, with as few thought stories as possible.
Ok!


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