Round 2

[Benjobanjo]

Paulo,
I've seen through the illusion of self. I have been expecting a mountain moving shift but really is this all there is? I have read that this is the start so can I just assume that I have in the way to start on the continued journey? Can I practice being aware of no self until I learn it unconsciously? Do I meditate on the feeling to enlarge it to encompass my whole life all the time?
It happens differently for different people, maybe this is the way this is for me?
I also don't want to assume that I have because of the "status" that comes with it and perhaps I am putting jyself down assuming that I am not worthy/ready or whatever?
I could be completely wrong on all of this but welcome your comments.
Cheers Pablo,
Ben

[Benjobanjo]

At the end of the day - I was assuming that there would be a shift and it would ready help my perspective on life's problems... expectations...

[Benjobanjo]

It has altered my perspective but I was hoping for more of a solution! hahah! nevermind!

[Paulo]

Hi Ben,

Nice work once again, continued looking at beliefs reveals what's behind those beliefs - just like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz looking behind the curtain and seeing the mighty wizard is just an old man - she'd never have known if she didn't look.

Lots of questions from you in your last posting. Most of them you will be able to address for yourself, but I've picked a few, as they are points for clarification more than questions I feel.

The labelling, the habit continues....will it continue? Does it continue for you?

In my experience this labelling does continue, it's what the mind does - labels, classifies, sorts, and files things away in memory in a neat little story. This story of course is not real, in the same way that a map is not the territory it represents, it's purely symbolic. How this will turn out for you, I don't know, but it will be exciting to find out I think :)

I was assuming that there would be a shift and it would ready help my perspective on life's problems... expectations...

Well said.

I've seen through the illusion of self. I have been expecting a mountain moving shift but really is this all there is? I have read that this is the start so can I just assume that I have in the way to start on the continued journey? Can I practice being aware of no self until I learn it unconsciously? Do I meditate on the feeling to enlarge it to encompass my whole life all the time?
It happens differently for different people, maybe this is the way this is for me?

Reality is what it is. I've found the experience will deepen and stabilise all by itself, no need for any special effort. The structures that were built around the illusion of a separate self will fall away, as they have no foundation to rest on any longer. There are groups here at LU for those who have seen through the illusion which take them on their continued journey in whatever direction that might be. Allow what is to be - everything works out fine in the end, despite any expectations about what to do - just as every river reaches the sea. So close your eyes and float downstream.

I also don't want to assume that I have because of the "status" that comes with it and perhaps I am putting jyself down assuming that I am not worthy/ready or whatever?

Seeing will confirm itself I've found, when there are no doubts left as to whether there is no separate self, when you've looked under every bush and still can't find a self beyond mind labelling experience, then you will know. Status or worthiness is just mind labelling again.

So, now that we're reached this point there is one question I will ask you outright -

Have you seen through the illusion of self? Don't over analyse, or think it through - just look and then answer with one clear word.

(If there are any doubts, of course please share them, and we will look at them more closely)

Thanks for sticking with it, Paulo.

[Benjobanjo]

Hi Pablo,

Have you seen through the illusion of self?

Without overthinking, analysing or expecting anything - yes, I have. I had ages ago but I was expecting something ridiculous. I am curious to discover how this will develop over time.

Are there questions that you'd like to ask me to check?

Thanks very much Pablo.
Ben

[Paulo]

Thanks Ben,

Are there questions that you'd like to ask me to check?

The questions below aren't a test, more so to help you deepen and clarify matters for yourself by looking at things from another angle.

You can respond to the questions below in your own time and your own way, maybe one per day, or all at once if you feel so inspired. Answer only from your own experience, and from what's happening for you in the moment. I will catch up with you once you have responded to all questions -

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see?

6) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

7) Anything to add?

[Benjobanjo]

Hi Pablo,

I would like to take these questions as I feel the need to take them on. This first one;

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Contrary to all years of conditioning to believe what the mind claims, upon looking for this self there isn't anything but a concept, a label a thought. There is much of a body and a person as much as there are cars, bushes, rain. The body has sensations, grows and changes, but there isn't any self to control of it. All there is is thoughts refering to experiences which are, as you say, just a map of the territory. It has always been this way, I kind of knew part of the truth all along...this just confirms what I had feelings for and augmented it.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self is a reference point to life's experiences. Once things happen, the mind or the ego lays claim to these experiences as "it's". It starts as soon as we are conscously aware of ourselves. As soon as we are cognitive at wahtever age that is. It's a way of learning about the world and what happens to the world when we do certain things. A story builds up from memory. It's useful for survival/learning. If something bad happened to you then you can learn to avoid it in future.
For me, it is the automatic labelling machine that assumes so many things that are incorrect. If I am aware that these are just thoughts then I should be free from self restrictions placed upon me, by me. At moments of really seeing, I have felt very hollow and free. Most of the time I am moving through the story, taking the experiences as they come. I feel mixed because there's nothing that I can do about how my life unfolds as whatever happens will happen and I will only respond in the way that I have evolved or grown to be. I would prefer to be able to control bad habits that I have but, they are what they are....

I would like to stop there for now Pablo I would like to see your response.

Thanks,
Ben

[Paulo]

Hi Ben,

I would like to take these questions as I feel the need to take them on.

Good strategy, there's no rush, take all the time you feel you need.

Very comprehensive responses to the first two questions Ben, I've no comments to make on these, and look forward to your next batch of responses.

Paulo.

[Benjobanjo]

Hi Paulo,

I've been a bit busy this weekend so not had much time to respond but I am ready to address the next questions;

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Things feel completely the same for me apart from the knowledge that I know something knew. I feel that I have a slightly new perspective that allows for acceptence of what is. There is not so much of a struggle as I am aware that there is no point. Life is in flow and we must trust where it is going.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?

It's so difficult to describe but it is just something to allow for acceptence. I was expecting something that would shift, make a huge improvement on my whole life so don't expect that. It is a realisation that thought is fallable; don't believe in everything that you think, trust in the experiences that you have as the only real truth that you can count on, and don't take it all too seriously as there is no conscious decisions that is controlling the ride that we are on....this isn't a description really but more like a simple advice guide...

Hope you're good Pablo.

[Paulo]

Thanks Ben, looking forward to your responses to the final few questions. Great work, Paulo.

[Benjobanjo]

Hi Pablo,

Final bits now;

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see?

I saw weeks ago but the thing was at that point I didn't think it was profound enough so I didn't make it so much of a big deal. The bit that I got wrong was that I assumed that once I saw it would stop me from having this thirst for finding THE TRUTH: THE ANSWER TO ALL PROBLEMS AND THE CESSATION OF ALL SELF DISCOVERY. I continued to read sections of this website and a few articles just made sense that really this is just the beginning and the path continues hopefully with a better momentum. http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... -Fall.html was particular good.

6) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

This is simoultaneously/paradoxically the worst and best things about this realisation. Worst because I have been on a never ending self imprvement journey wanting to conquer my subconscious to rid myself of negative patterns and have a 100% driven, creative and exceptional, extraordinary life if I can just fix myself. So to clear that out the way is a relief. I was kind of gutted at first because I lost control of my destiny (if I improve my self then I will have a better life - destiny in my hands) BUT, What will be will be... there's less pressure on myself and with that in mind, life could flow in positive ways without me thinking about or focusing on negative traits.

7) Anything to add?

It seems to me that many of these people on this site who have seen have come from buddhist backgrounds. It was recommended to stop reading any philosophies whilst looking for the gate but now this has been addressed it seems that people continue to deepen their understanding through other processes. What would you recommend?

Thanks Pablo.

[Paulo]

Thanks Ben,

6) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Can you have another look at that question and explore if there is a 'you' controlling what happens in life, or that makes choices about what happens in life. if you have any practical or everyday examples to illustrate, that would be great.

It seems to me that many of these people on this site who have seen have come from buddhist backgrounds. It was recommended to stop reading any philosophies whilst looking for the gate but now this has been addressed it seems that people continue to deepen their understanding through other processes. What would you recommend?

Sure, people come to this site from all cultures, backgrounds and traditions, all seeing life through a different lens, and playing different games. My experience has been that most people continue to explore life from their original perspective, and bring their new realization of 'no self' into that space.

Paulo.

[Benjobanjo]

Hi Pablo,

I'd just like to address the further enquiry;

6) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

The mind likes to think that we are controlling life and making decisions but there is something happening first, conditions create the pathway that is followed and then the mind identifies and labels this as it's own decision.
As sad as it may seem. It took a while to see this but I totally see this and in this way compassion for other peoples actions arise as it's just the way their path is running.
A simple example is when you are in the shower; you scrub and move and grab soap and rinse and do all the jobs you do in the shower without any conscious decision of it.
A larger scale life choice is let's say; you have an option to move to another country. You may think that it's a conscious decision but all of the conditioning, experience, genetic disposition, current factors and whatever else culminate to guide that process. You may think that it was your independence choice but ultimately you couldn't have made any other choice with the factors involved. It sucks but it's true when you look at it in this way.

I hope this clarifies.

Thanks.

[Paulo]

Thanks for the additional clarification Ben,

The next step is for me to share this thread with other guides to see if they have further questions for you. This part of the process may take a little while, but I will keep you updated as we progress.

Our 'aftercare' groups are run through Facebook, so if you have a Facebook account please send me a PM with the address. if you don't have a FaceBook account I would certainly recommend you sign up for one, even with a false name, in order to participate in these groups.

Paulo.

[Paulo]

Hi Ben,

A couple of additional points for clarification from our other guides -

From the response to Q2 -

If I am aware that these are just thoughts then I should be free from self restrictions placed upon me, by me.

What is aware, what places restrictions, what should be free?

At moments of really seeing, I have felt very hollow and free

What is it that feels hollow and free ?


From the response to Q3 -

Things feel completely the same for me apart from the knowledge that I know something knew.

What do you mean by 'knowledge' and by 'I know'?

Life is in flow and we must trust where it is going

What is it that 'must' trust?

Thanks, Paulo