Just seen through the self!

[Bill]

Hey Henrik,

I have asked a few others to look at your thread and give some answers to you.
Sometimes this is very good as a different perspective is seen.
here they are.

From Diana:

Hello Henrik,
Yes, no state can last forever. Do you still feel any desire for this to happen? Look closely and see if you can find any remnant of wanting this as a permanent state.

"But what I think (or is it the mind again?) is that I can know myself AS that in which all states come and go ...because that is what we are, isn't it"

Are these states separated from "where" they come and go?

"They all talk about a case of mistaken identity...we are not the ego, it's an assumed entity. I have seen that. I seem to be still looking for what we really are!"

Ok, ego is a mistaken identity. What is the ego as you see it now? Is "what we really are" personal? is it separated from the rest? Is there separation of any kind in what is, in reality?
***********************

from Stuart:

Hi Henrik,
Even after the illusion of self is seen though, the mind has a tendency to run along in its habitual way (a way that has for many years previously assumed a self to be true). It is as if patterns of thinking have inertia This force of habit can sometimes generate the experience of a self being present. This is sometimes called 'selfing'. It sometimes happens to me. And I relate to the feelings/thoughts of doubt that selfing can lead to.
Next time you notice the feelings of doubt or expectation of something more, just use direct looking to see if there is a Henrik in that experience. Does doubt have a quality that means it must belong to Henrik? Is it anything more than a thought or string of thoughts? Does doubt have any physical feeling in your body? And what is the time course of doubt? In other words is it constant or does it change during the time of your direct observation of it?

[Henrik70]

Hi Diana and Stuart, thanks for comming in and helping me!

I am somewhat surprised at the simplicity of this and the mind still want some shift to happen or a realization deeper than just seeing that the thought me isn't who I am. This is why the mind looks for a state, for that permanent 'thing' or awareness that I am.
Now, I have to try to get used to the thought that I can't know who I am like that. Seems very difficult for me.

No state lasts forever...i can see that! Me is just a thought...I can see that. But, mind wants more. I can't battle mind here...that would be more mind , more belief in a me trying to control what is happening.

I cant see if the states are different from where they come...!
How is that seen?

Stuart...I can't find a Henrik in doupt or expectation! I might be putting to much attention on the me pattern continuing by habbit!

Thanks all of you for supporting!

[Henrik70]

Hi,
Again I had a small 'opening' the other day...Think I was going over something Diana was saying. Suddenly there was no self to liberate, no one was bound and I remember thinking 'how easy this is...how could I not see it (although I have seen it a few times before...that's why I started a thread here) Then, as Before, the more egoic frame of mind sets in and I think...'How did I see that...how come it was so easy...it's gone now'...and there is a person again trying to become free.

This keeps happening. I Think you have done a great job...having a lot of patience but I Think I sjould study these conversations again for some time and come back when more 'established' in the no self. Don't want to take more of your time!

There were som concluding questions...don't know if you want to do them Bill!

I want to thank you, and Stuart and Diana for giving your time to this, helping people away from the 'spiritual bagage' into simplicity and truth!
It's agreat page and Community!
All the best

Henrik

[Bill]

Hello again Henrik,

Thanks for the reply.
You've got to know Henrik, there is not something to study in this.
It's not something to understand or learn. It can only really be seen.
It seems like what we find works here with this on the forum is a daily interaction..
a keeping to this looking and questioning going back and forth, keeping the focus on.
The last several weeks this hasn't really happened much.

I would encourage you to come back here when you can start fresh and take this
up again if that's what you want. You are very close from what I can see.
Just because a 'sense of self' seems to come and go, doesn't mean there is a real self.
What is a 'sense of self' really, other than life itself?

If you look right now, can you find a self?
Anywhere? Has there ever been one in reality?
That is the only question I want an answer to.
Everything else is fluff.

All that's needed is to look.
The 'final questions' can wait until you can drop this seeking of a permanent state.

Please let me know what you'd like to do.
You can go for it now, pick this thread up later, or start a new.

Bill

[Henrik70]

Hi Bill, and Stuart and Diana,

I'd love to continue, especially if you think I'm pretty close. Thought I was stuck!
I had some busy weeks so I couldn't reply every day. Better now, and even if busy I make sure I keep replying!

I can see there is no permanent state...even that which I thought was our Real self seems to be a concept.

I can see there is no me being taken for a ride by the mind (it often feels like that)

When I look for 'who' it is that wants relief I can only find thought, feelings and some contraction. No self.

Can't find a Henrik in expectation or doupt...only a concept again.

What is a 'sense of self' really, other than life itself?

I somehow divided up self and Life...but Everything must be Life...what else could it be?!

If you look right now, can you find a self?
Anywhere? Has there ever been one in reality?
That is the only question I want an answer to.
Everything else is fluff.

Sounds good! There are appearances we call self or me...but nothing is separate from the rest. That's clear. No self just labeling.

Thanks Bill for encouraging me! And doing this!

[Bill]

Henrik,

Yes you are very close... but you are also stuck a bit...

If you look, can you find anything other than 'this'?
Think about this dialogue we're having....
When you feel like you're SEEING it, its 'this'.
When you feel like you lost it, its 'this'.
When you seek for it back, its 'this'.
When you hate what's being said, its 'this'.
When you love what's being said, its 'this' too.
In other words, it's always 'this'.

let me ask you your own question as its perfect...

I somehow divided up self and Life...but Everything must be Life...what else could it be?!

[Henrik70]

Hi Bill,

I somehow divided up self and Life...but Everything must be Life...what else could it be?!

Yes, that's clear, everything must be the same essence or 'material'.

But, here's what seems to confuse me...I can't find a me or self in here, but, the fact that I seem to be able to make a decision, or to volontarily think a certain thought make it seem that there is some control or volition going on, hence a self or controler. EVEN if I can see that the thought to think a certain thought was not intentional, I still believe and feel there might be a person (controler) in there.

I didnt create my parents, didn't grow myself in the womb etc that's clear...but at three or four there seems to be a self appearing...and although I can't find one, there is a belief in a person still going on in the mind because of this seeming volition!

The self is just mind...thought... why do I believe thought so much?

[Bill]

Henrik,

Take a look at a decision you might have made in the last day
about anything really, something everyday... like what clothes to wear
or what to eat for lunch. Something where you felt a choice was made.
Look at what went on prior to the apparent choice and see if you can
find what appeared to make it. How was it made?
If you can't find a decision from the past, then apply this question
to something on your mind now that will be coming up soon.
Look carefully during and after as to how this is done.
Is there a controller making a decision?

The self is just mind...thought... why do I believe thought so much?

Thoughts are almost universally believed as the 'truth'.
Seeing thoughts as only passing thoughts is a leap.
Is there more to reality than your thoughts?
Is the content of thoughts reality? some of the time? all of the time?

[Henrik70]

Look at what went on prior to the apparent choice and see if you can
find what appeared to make it. How was it made?

I can see that that some outer stimuly or a thought or feeling trigger thoughts which appear sponanoeusly...but when I sit down and really decide to think a certain thought it really seems as if I can do that and that it is me controling! I have done this several times today and I can't see through the illusion of self right here! Most other cases quite clear it is all spontaneous and no doer behind!

Is there more to reality than your thoughts?
Is the content of thoughts reality? some of the time? all of the time?

I don't think I know what reality means anymore. Thought is commenting on 'reality' all the time. It seems reality is one thing and thoughts another...thoughts being unreal, minds way of making sense of reality!

[Bill]

Do you feel there is a self that is doing, feeling, thinking? The illusion is the belief in a "you" that's actually doing, feeling, or thinking anything. Look at your thoughts and see if you can control any thought. Can you stop a thought mid stream? Is there a controller of thought? Is there a thinker? If you look carefully, you will realize there is nothing - no "you" controlling or thinking. There is only thinking happening, plus the habit of thinking that there is a "you" who is thinking, doing, hearing, etc. Actually, everything is happening now without any you being in control.

but when I sit down and really decide to think a certain thought it really seems as if I can do that and that it is me controling!

Henrik, If there's no self as you have stated, who or what is that 'sits down and really decides'?

[Henrik70]

Hi Bill,

Do you feel there is a self that is doing, feeling, thinking?

No it seems to just appear. Don't know the next thought. But the seeming volition confuses me...an intention can bring about a certain thought. BUT...it might not belong to a person, to a me in here, though! That's what I'm looking into!

Henrik, If there's no self as you have stated, who or what is that 'sits down and really decides'?

I don't know. Before I thought it was me, a person...now I'm not sure. I can't find a person...but there is some control...there i volition!

[Bill]

But the seeming volition confuses me...an intention can bring about a certain thought. BUT...it might not belong to a person, to a me in here, though! That's what I'm looking into!

It is not the "I" that is intention or volition.
What is this intention other than another thought?
Is intention an entity by itself?

There may be a sense that there's an 'intender'. You can't shake it, and you assume it indicates an 'I'.
Well, you can't shake it, because it's a feeling like any other. You don't have to shake it.
You don't have to wrap your mind around it.
You just have to see if there's anything behind it.

Just Look.

[Henrik70]

Hi Bill,

It is not the "I" that is intention or volition.
What is this intention other than another thought?
Is intention an entity by itself?

I can see intention is just another thought and I cant find an entity in intention.

There may be a sense that there's an 'intender'. You can't shake it, and you assume it indicates an 'I'.

Yes, there seems to be an intender behind intention when "I" can volitionally think certain thoughts.

You don't have to wrap your mind around it.
You just have to see if there's anything behind it.

Seems like intention also is just thought after thought...but where do they come from?

What would self be in your (and LU's) definiton?

[Bill]

Henrik,

Direct experience will never point to a ‘self’ because there isn’t one. You have already seen this, and have called Henrik ‘fictional’. Thoughts will still come in and claim experience, try to make sense of it, own it. That is the nature of thought, and it won’t stop.

We're not here to prove to you that there is no self, it would be more like you need to show that there really is one. I am only pointing to the gate, 'you' have to go through it. You have said there is no self, yet your thoughts tell you ‘not yet’, there something more remaining.... You are clinging on to some expectation about a different experience, a 'state' of enlightenment. Thoughts tell a story about a ‘you’ being stuck, but I can’t see that. There is only seeing. There is never not seeing.

You see, this is so very simple that the mind can’t see it, can't make sense of it, and it overlooks it. Just for a moment, look past the thoughts, and come to your senses. See, touch, feel, smell, listen. What is actually happening, right here and now? Isn’t it a permanent miracle? Life as it is...

Seems like intention also is just thought after thought...but where do they come from?

Thoughts...where do they come from for you?

What would self be in your (and LU's) definiton?

what would self be in Henrik's definition?

[Henrik70]

Hi Bill,

Thoughts tell a story about a ‘you’ being stuck, but I can’t see that. There is only seeing. There is never not seeing.

Yes, I keep seeing THIS and then listen to the thoughts telling me something else. I'm getting abit tired of it. I don't even know who they talk to anymore...only that there is an automatic response that it is to 'me'!
I think it is because I can't find a thing or place that I am that 'I' keep hanging on to the old reference point 'me'!
I thought I would feel or know that I am presence or awareness. Seems like awakened people do.
OK thought says I am not there, but seeing i there, experiencing is there..or here rather! I'm so tired of trying to solve this on a mental level. Yet thoughts go on trying again and again. At least I begin to see it's not my battle. It can go on...it will go on, has never achieved awakening, just more stuff. And here is hearig, seeing feeling with or without thoughts.
Am I done...don't know. But thought can't see this and wont awaken 'me'. That's obvious.

Thoughts...where do they come from for you?

They just appear...but do they originate in a divine Mind or something...? Don't know.

what would self be in Henrik's definition?

Self as an illusion would be the belief that we are a thing in a body that receive impresseions and control some aspects of our experience. The real Self would be the Subject that Always is!