Hi Susan, I am ready when you are.
:)
Shannon
Are you there, Susan P?
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Hi Shannon,
good morning! Let`s get started right away.
1. Please list all and any expectations you have for this process. What would the outcome look like for you?
How will this feel? How will this change you?
2. When you say `I` what does that refer to in direct experience (your senses only!)? Please describe in detail - does it have a shape? A size? A quality?
3. In direct experience, can you find an `I` that experiences experience?
Warmly,
Susan
good morning! Let`s get started right away.
1. Please list all and any expectations you have for this process. What would the outcome look like for you?
How will this feel? How will this change you?
2. When you say `I` what does that refer to in direct experience (your senses only!)? Please describe in detail - does it have a shape? A size? A quality?
3. In direct experience, can you find an `I` that experiences experience?
Warmly,
Susan
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Shannonjheart
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Alright!
1) expectations and outcome, and how will this feel?
I have no idea how it will feel. Perhaps much the same, but I expect that life will go on without the suffering of it. However I don't really know. Outcome?....that there will be a ceasing of resisting the life, that I will not get in the way of life. And still I do not really know.
2) At the moment, "I" is perceived like a localized set of thoughts and feelings, I'm assuming its perceived from "in here". No shape, size, color, this continued looking is certain that it can't be found. It's believed and assumed without substantiating.
3) Can not.
Thanks Susan
1) expectations and outcome, and how will this feel?
I have no idea how it will feel. Perhaps much the same, but I expect that life will go on without the suffering of it. However I don't really know. Outcome?....that there will be a ceasing of resisting the life, that I will not get in the way of life. And still I do not really know.
2) At the moment, "I" is perceived like a localized set of thoughts and feelings, I'm assuming its perceived from "in here". No shape, size, color, this continued looking is certain that it can't be found. It's believed and assumed without substantiating.
3) Can not.
Thanks Susan
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Hi Shannon,
Warmly,
Susan
Please explain in detail what suffering means to you and how you are suffering.Perhaps much the same, but I expect that life will go on without the suffering of it.
How do you get in the way of life? How do you resist it? Do you stop breathing, eating, sleeping, ... ?that there will be a ceasing of resisting the life, that I will not get in the way of life.
For our inquiry here it is important that you look - again and again. Where about do you localize this set of thoughts and feelings?"I" is perceived like a localized set of thoughts and feelings
What does `in here` refer to?I'm assuming its perceived from "in here".
We will continue to question this lifelong habit of believing in `I` until you have no doubt left that there is none.No shape, size, color, this continued looking is certain that it can't be found. It's believed and assumed without substantiating.
Warmly,
Susan
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Shannonjheart
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Susan I just answered your questions in lengthy detail, I submitted it, yet it doesn't appear here. Are you able to read it somewhere? I don't fancy doing the whole exercise again, it doesn't feel authentic to remember what I wrote either. If you can't find it, can we begin afresh?
Shannon
Shannon
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
I am sorry, Shannon. Your answer got somehow lost and I can`t read it. I know that is very frustrating. When I am writing lengthy answers here, I, once in a while, press crtlA and crtlC, so that if it gets lost I only have to refresh the window and press crtlV and the text is there. Another possibility would be to writing in a word document and copy it from there. Perhaps you want to try that next time.
In order to get our conversation going I would like you to answer these questions only:
Warmly,
Susan
ps: please let me know if for whatever reason there is a day you can`t respond here in the forum.
pps: for the length of our inquiry here it is very beneficial to stop engaging in other teachings, reading books, listening to satsangs
In order to get our conversation going I would like you to answer these questions only:
Please explain in detail what suffering means to you and how you are suffering.
No lengthy answer necessary, perhaps you remember the essence of the answers you typed before. That`s all we need for a start.How do you get in the way of life? How do you resist it? Do you stop breathing, eating, sleeping, ... ?
Warmly,
Susan
ps: please let me know if for whatever reason there is a day you can`t respond here in the forum.
pps: for the length of our inquiry here it is very beneficial to stop engaging in other teachings, reading books, listening to satsangs
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Shannonjheart
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Thank you Susan.
What does suffering mean to me? And how am I suffering?
After the third time of looking at this question it is clear to me that the suffering is a thought. An opinion about the event or circumstances occurring that "this shouldn't be happening" or "I don't like this". The pain, or the occurrence is happening anyway, but the suffering of it appears to be something I've added. At the moment I am not suffering. From memory, when I have suffered, it seems to have been my reaction to something, and it's that part that's most uncomfortable.
How do I get in the way of life? How do I resist it?
I suppose it's not possible to get in the way, but that reactionary, resistance thought seems to get in the way of good health. The tension in the stomach, increased heart rate or physical weakness is what I refer to as get in the way of life. Both questions are about the same thing, thoughts of resisting.
Looking forward to continuing,
Shannon
What does suffering mean to me? And how am I suffering?
After the third time of looking at this question it is clear to me that the suffering is a thought. An opinion about the event or circumstances occurring that "this shouldn't be happening" or "I don't like this". The pain, or the occurrence is happening anyway, but the suffering of it appears to be something I've added. At the moment I am not suffering. From memory, when I have suffered, it seems to have been my reaction to something, and it's that part that's most uncomfortable.
How do I get in the way of life? How do I resist it?
I suppose it's not possible to get in the way, but that reactionary, resistance thought seems to get in the way of good health. The tension in the stomach, increased heart rate or physical weakness is what I refer to as get in the way of life. Both questions are about the same thing, thoughts of resisting.
Looking forward to continuing,
Shannon
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Welcome back!
When we acquire language, the mind learns to label actions: `I walk`, `I talk`, `I breath`, `I digest`, `I sleep`, `I suffer` etc. If you change these labels to: `walking`, `talking`, `breathing`, `typing` what happens?
Please do the following exercise: for 10 min write down everything that happens using the usual form of language (`I am sitting`, `I am typing`, `I am breathing`...). For another 10 min write down everything that happens without using `I` (typing, sitting, breathing ...). How is that?
Warmly,
Susan
Good noticing! Here is what happens: The mind labels everything that it focuses on. Look around the room slowly. Notice how mind immediately starts telling stories and names things. Thoughts layer concepts over the direct experience.An opinion about the event or circumstances occurring that "this shouldn't be happening" or "I don't like this". The pain, or the occurrence is happening anyway, but the suffering of it appears to be something I've added. At the moment I am not suffering.
When we acquire language, the mind learns to label actions: `I walk`, `I talk`, `I breath`, `I digest`, `I sleep`, `I suffer` etc. If you change these labels to: `walking`, `talking`, `breathing`, `typing` what happens?
Please do the following exercise: for 10 min write down everything that happens using the usual form of language (`I am sitting`, `I am typing`, `I am breathing`...). For another 10 min write down everything that happens without using `I` (typing, sitting, breathing ...). How is that?
Thoughts of resisting... Are you the thinker of those thoughts?I suppose it's not possible to get in the way, but that reactionary, resistance thought seems to get in the way of good health. The tension in the stomach, increased heart rate or physical weakness is what I refer to as get in the way of life. Both questions are about the same thing, thoughts of resisting.
Warmly,
Susan
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Shannonjheart
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Hi Susan,
I love how this process brings focus, these questions and inquiry are already happening spontaneously. But to sit in this forum holds my focus to actually do the looking into.
Here goes....
I am sitting cross-legged, I feel the couch under me, I hear my dog grunt,I hear birds outside chirping,I see the design on my carpet, I hear a car drive by, I hear children's voices, I am breathing, I feel a headache, I feel tension in my back, I speak to my son, I listen, I hear, I think, I listen, I look, I answer, I get angry, I judge, I talk, I wonder, I direct my son, I hear....
Listening, hearing, thinking, breathing, feeling tension, sensing tension, relaxing, sitting, hearing, looking, resting, sensing, relaxing, reading, typing, moving fingers, spelling, resting, breathing, hearing, typing, looking at dog, sensing tension in body, thinking,......
Answering...reflecting on how the second exercise feels more natural. The first set was less preferable, less enjoyable. The second part felt less personal, less heavy, less charged, easier, more relaxed, took less effort, quieter. Also felt more diffused in attention, more open to different happenings, felt less "going out there" to meet the experience but more like the sensations came to here. To sum up, mostly second part felt less personal, not so much about me. I enjoyed it.
Am I the thinker of thoughts? It has been seen at times that thoughts arise of their own accord. Sometimes I see thoughts come ' through ' or 'to' me but I can't say I'm the originator of them. I clearly don't invent them. They seem to do whatever they do. I know this because often they're random, don't make sense, are ridiculous or contradict themselves, and therefore I can't take them seriously. Thoughts with a high charge or emotional trigger do tend to get believed in that they're me. When not triggered, I see they're not mine, they just come. And they pass by just as easily.
Even the thoughts I seem to get "caught in" can then be seen as not coming from me, and then they just drop. Fizzle out.
Hope I've done the exercise as intended.
Cheers,
Shannon
I love how this process brings focus, these questions and inquiry are already happening spontaneously. But to sit in this forum holds my focus to actually do the looking into.
Here goes....
I am sitting cross-legged, I feel the couch under me, I hear my dog grunt,I hear birds outside chirping,I see the design on my carpet, I hear a car drive by, I hear children's voices, I am breathing, I feel a headache, I feel tension in my back, I speak to my son, I listen, I hear, I think, I listen, I look, I answer, I get angry, I judge, I talk, I wonder, I direct my son, I hear....
Listening, hearing, thinking, breathing, feeling tension, sensing tension, relaxing, sitting, hearing, looking, resting, sensing, relaxing, reading, typing, moving fingers, spelling, resting, breathing, hearing, typing, looking at dog, sensing tension in body, thinking,......
Answering...reflecting on how the second exercise feels more natural. The first set was less preferable, less enjoyable. The second part felt less personal, less heavy, less charged, easier, more relaxed, took less effort, quieter. Also felt more diffused in attention, more open to different happenings, felt less "going out there" to meet the experience but more like the sensations came to here. To sum up, mostly second part felt less personal, not so much about me. I enjoyed it.
Am I the thinker of thoughts? It has been seen at times that thoughts arise of their own accord. Sometimes I see thoughts come ' through ' or 'to' me but I can't say I'm the originator of them. I clearly don't invent them. They seem to do whatever they do. I know this because often they're random, don't make sense, are ridiculous or contradict themselves, and therefore I can't take them seriously. Thoughts with a high charge or emotional trigger do tend to get believed in that they're me. When not triggered, I see they're not mine, they just come. And they pass by just as easily.
Even the thoughts I seem to get "caught in" can then be seen as not coming from me, and then they just drop. Fizzle out.
Hope I've done the exercise as intended.
Cheers,
Shannon
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Shannonjheart
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Susan, a question for you. Is there a time of day when you'd prefer to read my reply? I notice my timing in the day is inconsistant and wonder if you'd prefer roughly the same time each day? A regular schedule might also help me. Just tell me according to our time zone ( not the time on the forum's clock).
Thanks,
Shannon
Thanks,
Shannon
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Hi Shannon,
Now, would you please rewrite your paragraph without using `I`. How is that?
Can YOU think a choose a thought?
Here is one more question: How does your `I` work? Where did it come from? Is it the same `I` you were ten years ago? Where does it reside?
Warmly,
Susan
That is why we want to keep the momentum going and post every day. I usually do my reply after 7 pm. It would be great if you have a chance to post something before 8 pm, so it doesn`t get too late for me. Would that work?I love how this process brings focus, these questions and inquiry are already happening spontaneously. But to sit in this forum holds my focus to actually do the looking into.
Interesting exercise, isn`t it?To sum up, mostly second part felt less personal, not so much about me.
What you listed here is the direct experience - using the senses only. That is what we are looking for in this inquiry.Listening, hearing, thinking, breathing, feeling tension, sensing tension, relaxing, sitting, hearing, looking, resting, sensing, relaxing, reading, typing, moving fingers, spelling, resting, breathing, hearing, typing, looking at dog, sensing tension in body, thinking,
I am sitting cross-legged, I feel the couch under me, I hear my dog grunt,I hear birds outside chirping,I see the design on my carpet, I hear a car drive by, I hear children's voices, I am breathing, I feel a headache, I feel tension in my back, I speak to my son, I listen, I hear, I think, I listen, I look, I answer, I get angry, I judge, I talk, I wonder, I direct my son, I hear....
Can you see how the mind is labelling everything from the first part of the exercise?Here is what happens: The mind labels everything that it focuses on. Look around the room slowly. Notice how mind immediately starts telling stories and names things. Thoughts layer concepts over the direct experience.
Now, would you please rewrite your paragraph without using `I`. How is that?
`I` is not a place where thoughts appear. `I` is a thought. It appears and disappears by itself. Check it!Sometimes I see thoughts come ' through ' or 'to' me but I can't say I'm the originator of them. I clearly don't invent them. They seem to do whatever they do.
Can YOU think a choose a thought?
Here is one more question: How does your `I` work? Where did it come from? Is it the same `I` you were ten years ago? Where does it reside?
Warmly,
Susan
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Shannonjheart
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Thanks Susan, and I'll do my homework earlier in the day and hopefully that'll work better for both of us.
I can see how the labelling just occurs with the mind. Seems that's it's job.
Rewritten...."Sometimes thoughts are seen to come, but the origin is unclear. The source is unknown. They seem to do whatever they do."
Again, this is an unpersonal observation. There's a lightness to it, not much vested interest in it, just a truth.
I don't understand your statement," I is not a place thoughts appear." Where do they appear? When I look, there's a sense of I in the middle-ish of the body. I can not absolutely pinpoint it though.
Can I think or choose a thought? No, there's already been a release of the illusion of control in this department for some months. Can "YOU" ......who is the YOU referred to in this question? I don't know who I am.
Last question, how does "I" work? It just pops up and does its thing.
Where does it come from? Can't tell.
Is it the same I from ten years ago? It would seem that, that old "I" doesn't exist anymore, if it ever did. I can't say for sure it is an enduring thing that lasts past the moment it pops into the scene. I can not find it's home. It seems like it takes up temporary residence through my eyes in the looking around. I keep going back to thinking I am seeing through my eyes.
This is really hard. It's not easy to be clear.
Shannon
I can see how the labelling just occurs with the mind. Seems that's it's job.
Rewritten...."Sometimes thoughts are seen to come, but the origin is unclear. The source is unknown. They seem to do whatever they do."
Again, this is an unpersonal observation. There's a lightness to it, not much vested interest in it, just a truth.
I don't understand your statement," I is not a place thoughts appear." Where do they appear? When I look, there's a sense of I in the middle-ish of the body. I can not absolutely pinpoint it though.
Can I think or choose a thought? No, there's already been a release of the illusion of control in this department for some months. Can "YOU" ......who is the YOU referred to in this question? I don't know who I am.
Last question, how does "I" work? It just pops up and does its thing.
Where does it come from? Can't tell.
Is it the same I from ten years ago? It would seem that, that old "I" doesn't exist anymore, if it ever did. I can't say for sure it is an enduring thing that lasts past the moment it pops into the scene. I can not find it's home. It seems like it takes up temporary residence through my eyes in the looking around. I keep going back to thinking I am seeing through my eyes.
This is really hard. It's not easy to be clear.
Shannon
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Hi Shannon,
sorry for the confusion.
Do this: Sit quietly, wherever you are, and notice what is real: body, furniture, feelings, thoughts, sensations, surroundings. Can you find an `I` here? Or are there just thoughts, feelings, sensations?
Warmly,
Susan
sorry for the confusion.
Shannonjheart wrote:
I am sitting cross-legged, I feel the couch under me, I hear my dog grunt,I hear birds outside chirping,I see the design on my carpet, I hear a car drive by, I hear children's voices, I am breathing, I feel a headache, I feel tension in my back, I speak to my son, I listen, I hear, I think, I listen, I look, I answer, I get angry, I judge, I talk, I wonder, I direct my son, I hear....
This is the paragraph that I wanted you to rewrite. Please give it a try.Can you see how the mind is labelling everything from the first part of the exercise?
Now, would you please rewrite your paragraph without using `I`. How is that?
Shannonjheart wrote:
Sometimes I see thoughts come ' through ' or 'to' me but I can't say I'm the originator of them. I clearly don't invent them. They seem to do whatever they do.`I` is not a place where thoughts appear. `I` is a thought. It appears and disappears by itself.
Thoughts are an expression of life as well as emotions. They aren`t personal as there is no `I`. As you stated clearly thoughts come to you or through you. Once they are noticed the mind often puts the label `I`, `mine`, or `me` on them.I don't understand your statement," I is not a place thoughts appear." Where do they appear?
Do this: Sit quietly, wherever you are, and notice what is real: body, furniture, feelings, thoughts, sensations, surroundings. Can you find an `I` here? Or are there just thoughts, feelings, sensations?
How does `I` look through your eyes? Are you `doing` seeing? Check it!I can not find it's home. It seems like it takes up temporary residence through my eyes in the looking around. I keep going back to thinking I am seeing through my eyes.
Warmly,
Susan
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Shannonjheart
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Hi Susan,
Sitting cross legged, feel couch, hear dog, hear birds, see carpet, hear car driving, hear voices, breathing, head aching, back tension, speaking, listening, thinking, listening, looking, answering, feel anger, judging, talking, wondering, directing, hearing....
It still seems like a labelling, a mental activity labelling the various types of activities, but as said before, no vested personal interest in them. Not a personal self going out to do something to what is noticed/ perceived. Just perception with a word-label added.
I can not locate an I.
How does I look through my eyes?
By a habit. By a habit of projecting something through the eyes. It seems like a projected sense of self looks out and goes shopping. I have to be honest to say "I'm" not doing through my eyes because I can't locate the I that does anything like seeing.
Cheers,
Shannon
Sitting cross legged, feel couch, hear dog, hear birds, see carpet, hear car driving, hear voices, breathing, head aching, back tension, speaking, listening, thinking, listening, looking, answering, feel anger, judging, talking, wondering, directing, hearing....
It still seems like a labelling, a mental activity labelling the various types of activities, but as said before, no vested personal interest in them. Not a personal self going out to do something to what is noticed/ perceived. Just perception with a word-label added.
I can not locate an I.
How does I look through my eyes?
By a habit. By a habit of projecting something through the eyes. It seems like a projected sense of self looks out and goes shopping. I have to be honest to say "I'm" not doing through my eyes because I can't locate the I that does anything like seeing.
Cheers,
Shannon
Re: Are you there, Susan P?
Hi Shannon,
In direct experience (DE), can you find an "I" that experiences experience?
What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been a "you", nor is there or will be there ever?
How does life look like without a "I"?
Warmly,
Susan
ps: don't worry about using the language as usual ("I", "me", "mine", "you"). If I point back on an answer you have given me it just means that there needs to be more looking done.
Who can not locate an "I"?I can not locate an I.
In direct experience (DE), can you find an "I" that experiences experience?
What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been a "you", nor is there or will be there ever?
How does life look like without a "I"?
Warmly,
Susan
ps: don't worry about using the language as usual ("I", "me", "mine", "you"). If I point back on an answer you have given me it just means that there needs to be more looking done.
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