Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

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vinceschubert
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:53 pm

I think that I got it wrong before in the sense that this sense of self would go away.
Oh no, it is very useful. How would you communicate with others without it as a reference tool ?
I guess that this is what you refer to behaving as if having a self.
Yes, we don't believe that a hammer is part of us, but when using it, we behave as if it is an extension of our arm/hand.
It is like Santa cannot be found but I'm still waiting to see my parents placing the presents under the Christmas tree.
Yes, i did this for the first couple of christmas' after finding out about Santa. Maybe it's part of letting go if the benefits of the belief ?
that it will be obvious that there is no sense of self. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Was it an accident when you said "sense of self" here ?

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:55 am

Yes, it was an accident. I meant that my expectation is that the fact that there is no self would be obvious.

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:10 am

my expectation is that the fact that there is no self would be obvious.
Yes, certainly it will be obvious, but that doesn't mean that doubt thoughts won't arise.
Can you SEE that doubt thoughts are just more thoughts and deserve no more credibility than the sound of the refrigerator ?
How obvious is it for you ?

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:11 am

Yes, I can see that doubt thoughts are just more thoughts that deserve little credibility. I also see that they come from nowhere, they just appear.

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:16 pm

Hi Vince,

Something happened this afternoon. I had an experience of no-self if you can call it this way.

The sense of self seems in my case to be associated with bodily sensations. So I easily see that thoughts come and go, that they are not what I am and I don't take them very seriously.

This afternoon I noticed that the bodily sensations are like thoughts. But this time it was different! Usually, with thoughts I take my stand as the bodily sensations. But today, experientially noticing that bodily sensations are like thoughts ... I took my stand as nothing. Still, everything was working as usual. It was kind of funny. My wife caught me smiling.

It was a very short glimpse because I was in the middle of a conversation so when answering I went back to 'usual'. Any suggestions to invite this experiential realization?

Thank you
Jose

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:38 pm

Morning Jose.
I had an experience of no-self
Excellent. This is a perfect example to point out a couple of things.
It might seem like stating the obvious, but of course, all experiences are temporary. A characteristic of EVERYTHING is impermanence.
The consequences of the experience bring about change. The consequences of a lifetime of conditioning are to attempt to stay in the familiar. To resist change.
Once SEEn, it can never be unSEEn.
This afternoon I noticed that the bodily sensations are like thoughts.
Ha!, Excellent. Well SEEn.
This brings us to another significant portal...
Meaning.
Is there meaning in anything other than what the mind projects ?
Still, everything was working as usual.
So can we extrapolate and say that a Self isn't required for Life-ing to happen in a competent way ?
It was kind of funny. My wife caught me smiling.
Discovery is like that. There is smiling happening here too (now). ..and love and compassion flow (actually what these words point to.)
It was a very short glimpse
Of course. (another portal here) These things happen outside of time.
Does time exist, except as a comparison of memory to recent experience done by thought ?
Any suggestions to invite this experiential realization?
You had it ! Is mind trying to dismiss it by insisting that it be permanent ?

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:19 pm

Hi Vince,
Once SEEn, it can never be unSEEn.
I know that it is true that there is no self. However, it feels now like a memory fading away. It is not anything that you can grasp or learn. It is more ... living for lack of a better term. "It" is available only in real-time, if you understand what I mean.
You mention that once SEEn, it can never be unSEEn. So, I'm not sure if I've SEEn or not because since reporting it ... I'm pretty much as usual.
This brings us to another significant portal...
Meaning.
Is there meaning in anything other than what the mind projects ?
No, everything is pointless. Nothing to be sad about but to celebrate. With no life purpose, the goal in life is living. There is no way to get it wrong!
So can we extrapolate and say that a Self isn't required for Life-ing to happen in a competent way ?
yes, you are right. If fact, it was enjoyable and functional.
These things happen outside of time.
Does time exist, except as a comparison of memory to recent experience done by thought ?
No, only as comparison between two thoughts. I'm not sure if my understanding here is only intellectual.
You had it ! Is mind trying to dismiss it by insisting that it be permanent ?
I'm not try to dismiss it. I'm trying to be there again!
It was so short that I did not have time to explore, play, discover ...

Love
Jose

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:02 pm

Something weird happen tonight at story time with the kids. I found myself there, inventing a story for them but I was a bit disoriented. I did not know how I arrived there. It felt that I was given the privilege to experience what was going on from Jose's point of view at this moment. It did not feel like the previous no-self experience, this one was ... disorienting. Eventually, it went to 'usual'.

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:09 pm

Morning Jose.
So, I'm not sure if I've SEEn or not because since reporting it ... I'm pretty much as usual.
You can expect 'the usual' for a lot of the time, and moments of 'something different'. Conditioning does have a purpose. Imagine if we were to pay attention to every stimulation of all of the senses all of the time. We would be so overwhelmed that we would be nonfunctional. The organism likes the familiar. Thoughts assist with this in a pretty aggressive way.
I found myself there, inventing a story for them but I was a bit disoriented. I did not know how I arrived there. It felt that I was given the privilege to experience what was going on from Jose's point of view at this moment.
..and moments like these are an exploration. A toe into the unknown. Does it mean anything ?
THERE IS ONLY THIS !
When this is SEEn, fully grok'd, the Wonder-Full-ness becomes the dominant emotion. Just Amazing.
What was normal becomes Fantastic. Aren't we a miracle ? Isn't the world a miracle ?
Nothing has changed, but everything is different.

Stop thinking about it for a day and live with THIS.
Each time you realize that you are thinking about anything else, just replace it with appreciation of THIS.

Love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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alfi
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:19 pm

Thank you Vince,
Stop thinking about it for a day and live with THIS.
Each time you realize that you are thinking about anything else, just replace it with appreciation of THIS.
I'll do!
I'll report tomorrow

love
Jose

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alfi
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:33 pm

Hi Vince, hope you are well

These are some things I've observed through the day as I followed your advice:
Each time you realize that you are thinking about anything else, just replace it with appreciation of THIS.
  • the current experience is always available and is, in fact, the only 'thing' there is. However, thought disregard it most of the time as not being interesting enough, good enough.
  • experiences are not inherently good or bad, interesting or boring ... it is a thought / collection of thoughts that label them. These thoughts are also THIS and can also be appreciated.
  • thoughts, bodily sensations, sense of self ... are also on the perceived side (just like sights, sounds, smells, etc.).
  • There is no perceiver but it appears to be one. The perceiver is a made-up sensation just to say that this is what I am. It is interesting to notice that the sensations considered to be the perceiver (= sense of self) change. Sometimes it is behind the eyes, sometimes in the throat, etc.
  • The appearance of this "perceiver" is also THIS
  • I've realized that there is a strong conditioning in the need of a perceiver that makes the perceiving. This is reinforced by society and we learn this paradigm without realizing.
  • I'm not having no-self experiences, like the other day, but realizing in a more usual state - with todays' experiment - that a perceiver is not needed for experiencing. And experience is the only thing there is because experiences are already finished.
  • Everything is going so fast for thoughts that they simply cannot catch up. Thoughts requires time but experiencing happens in real-time. The way to go in experiencing is the ever changing now.
  • The sense of self is also THIS. Appreciated!
  • It has been a nice experiment! Everything is lovely ... Even those thoughts that say that this is not it. Even those are THIS!
love
Jose

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vinceschubert
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:34 am

Good stuff Jose.
Do you feel that you have SEEn through the delusion that there is a separate and independent Self ?

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:14 am

Do you feel that you have SEEn through the delusion that there is a separate and independent Self ?
I feel so. I know there is no separate and independent Self. There is an intermittent sense of self though.

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:22 pm

There is an intermittent sense of self though.
Of course. That will (probably) fade with each SEEing of it happening.
Ok, please anser these questions from your current perspective;

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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alfi
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:51 pm

Hi Vince,
these are the answers

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there is not a separate entity. It was never there other than as an assumption.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"
It is a collection of bodily sensations. It seems to arise as a desire to know what am I. It does not care which sensation it is provided there is one just for the sake of saying that this is what I am. It varies in the sense that sometimes it is felt behind the eyes, others in the throat, etc. Then, it is seen that it is just a bodily sensation and it disappear as a self and continues as bodily sensation.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It is a shift in paradigm! It looked like a self was a requirement for experience. Now I see clearly that there is only experiencing. There is no subject in experiencing ... what I believed before that was the subject is now on the experienced side. It is difficult to express ... what I mean is that the experienced is the shape the experiencing takes.
It feels loving, all inclusive. Anything, everything is THIS. Even the thoughts that say that this experience is not good enough, not interesting enough is also THIS. The sense of self, unpleasant sensations, etc. there is nothing that is not THIS.
Another thing I noticed is that previously (before joining the forum) I was reading non-duality books all the time. As if there was a piece missing in the puzzle. I stopped reading, following the forums instructions. Now I don't have any impulse of reading. It is not that I now know everything ... it is that I finally found what is real, experiencing is reality.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Stop thinking about it for a day and live with THIS.
Each time you realize that you are thinking about anything else, just replace it with appreciation of THIS.
I followed your suggestion and I stopped thinking and appreciate(d) THIS. Appreciation was the keyword that made the trick for me.

5) talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
It looks like we decide but in reality this is the only possibility. After the fact we can see that everything matched for this decision to be taken or this to happen but it is only a thought after the fact.
What makes things happen? How does it work?: I don't know. It seems to happen by itself, like a chain effect. It does not feels as predeterminism though. It is more like real-time unavoidability.
Some examples from experience:
today something funny has happened. "I decided" to go with the kids to a science museum. In our way, while driving, I started thinking how it come that I have decided this. I did not know! I found myself in the car with my wife and the kids driving to the museum ... how weird! So, I continue to the museum.
There are some conditions that can be considered: some friends told us that their kids liked this museum, we said that we may go one day, today is bank holiday and the weather was not so good ... So, in a way everything matched, but I cannot trace back how the decision was made.
6) Anything to add?
These set of questions look like the LU checkout questionnaire. I don't have the impression that I'm done. There is still an intermittent sense. However, something is changed. I know that experiencing is real and "it" is all inclusive. So the sense of self is welcomed to come and go as it pleases. THIS is also appreciated.
Thank you Vince for your guidance and patience so far.

love
Jose


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