Looking for a guide

[Angela12]

Look at this again. Please answer honestly, not just what you think I want you to say. Is there actually any thought attached to sensation? Can any thought actually wrap around anything?

I know/see they are not attached. In direct experience I see quite clearly (usually) that one has nothing to do with the other. That the only continuity between them is the space the arise in. But it's still like two layers- a non-conceptual layer and then a conceptual layer so i guess i have to rescind the comment i just made and cop to the fact that I still believe they are somehow linked. How is a sensation labelled if a thought isn't attached to it?

ormally LU discourages guides sharing too much biographical stuff. But this seems very relevant to me, and so I will share with you that I had a long run of chronic illnesses, at several points getting extremely sick. So I can relate to your question/concern. So now let me ask you a few questions in order to explore this experience more closely.

You say that in letting go with regard to health then you will do nothing and therefore won't get better. Also, do you get to choose what happens? Can you say for certain that you have chosen anything? Has there ever been a chooser? Would the absence of a chooser necessitate nothing happening? Do you make the world go round?

Also, notice what is the apparent effect of the seeking engagement energy? Is it apparently conducive to health?

I see what you are saying. I don't like it but I see it. I see that i don't get to choose what happens, not being sick, not seeking for a cure, not even the letting go of all that. It just feels like there is a chooser and it feels like there is someone desperately clinging to something. I am sure you are familiar with the sheer terror of having no control over your body...I'm terrified of being sick forever, of losing my job, of not being able to care for my children and on and on....
And no, the absence of a chooser doesn't mean apparent choosing won't happen. I very clearly don't make the world go round.

Angela

[joeylott]

But it's still like two layers- a non-conceptual layer and then a conceptual layer so i guess i have to rescind the comment i just made and cop to the fact that I still believe they are somehow linked. How is a sensation labelled if a thought isn't attached to it?

What is your proof that a thought is actually about anything? In fact, can you be absolutely certain that there exist both a thought and a sensation at the same moment? Can you find both at the same time?

Look at it another way. Is the thought "Santa Claus" actually about Santa Claus?

I am sure you are familiar with the sheer terror of having no control over your body...I'm terrified of being sick forever, of losing my job, of not being able to care for my children and on and on....

Of course. And then the question is: are you certain that "terrified of being sick forever, of losing my job, etc." is the actuality of the experience? Or is that an interpretation? Is it possible to simply remain with the directness of the experience without trying to understand it?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

Hi Joey

Sick today. Will write tomorrow

[joeylott]

Thank you for letting me know. I hope you are feeling better soon.

[Angela12]

but it's still like two layers- a non-conceptual layer and then a conceptual layer so i guess i have to rescind the comment i just made and cop to the fact that I still believe they are somehow linked. How is a sensation labelled if a thought isn't attached to it?


What is your proof that a thought is actually about anything? In fact, can you be absolutely certain that there exist both a thought and a sensation at the same moment? Can you find both at the same time?

Look at it another way. Is the thought "Santa Claus" actually about Santa Claus?

I get that the Santa Claus thoughT isn't about Santa Claus but Santa Claus is completely made of thought whereas a sensation is real in some way I think. If thought isn't labelling sensation why do we think certain sensations have certain meanings. Like anxiety or happiness for example

I tried to see if a thought and sensation can be found at the same time and it seems to me they can. I can also hear music or sound and I seem to be able to feel sensation at the same time. Unless the sensation or sound are in fact made only of thought....but that doesn't seem right

I am sure you are familiar with the sheer terror of having no control over your body...I'm terrified of being sick forever, of losing my job, of not being able to care for my children and on and on....

Of course. And then the question is: are you certain that "terrified of being sick forever, of losing my job, etc." is the actuality of the experience? Or is that an interpretation? Is it possible to simply remain with the directness of the experience without trying to understand it?

No I am not sure about that. At one point I was briefly able to see through the terror and see that it was only thought. Brief but definite.

One more thing...I found another expectation today. I have been expecting that upon realization everything would feel like my. As in I would be able to physically sense everything as me. And of course this is not possible as each sensation is limited. I guess I have been acknowledging sensation as evidence of me-ness

[joeylott]

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I get that the Santa Claus thoughT isn't about Santa Claus but Santa Claus is completely made of thought whereas a sensation is real in some way I think. If thought isn't labelling sensation why do we think certain sensations have certain meanings. Like anxiety or happiness for example

What will the answer to your why question give you? Will it give you certainty? An end to seeking? Finality? Peace? Freedom?

Instead of asking why, just look at what is actually happening and directly knowable. Sort out what is real from what is fantasy. There is a thought that claims to be about a sensation. Can you provide any proof that the thought is truly about the sensation?

I tried to see if a thought and sensation can be found at the same time and it seems to me they can. I can also hear music or sound and I seem to be able to feel sensation at the same time. Unless the sensation or sound are in fact made only of thought....but that doesn't seem right

If you can find what you call thought and sensation at the same time then why bother with an artificial differentiation? Can you actually find the division between them?

These categories that you mention - sensation, sound, thought - can you demonstrate that they are actually distinct phenomena?

No I am not sure about that. At one point I was briefly able to see through the terror and see that it was only thought. Brief but definite.

This is very good. So let's explore a little further because while it is a useful stepping stone to be able to see that the problems are only thought stories, that can also turn into an obstacle if it's not immediately discarded.

So look and tell me if you can actually find a thought? Is there actually something there that you can say is for certain a thought? Is there anyone separate who thinks or observes?

One more thing...I found another expectation today. I have been expecting that upon realization everything would feel like my. As in I would be able to physically sense everything as me. And of course this is not possible as each sensation is limited. I guess I have been acknowledging sensation as evidence of me-ness

Good. So is the experience of physically sensing everything as you, should that arise, inherently significant? Is your present experiences of NOT physically sensing everything as you inherent significant? Does either or any experience provide any evidence of separation?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

I get that the Santa Claus thoughT isn't about Santa Claus but Santa Claus is completely made of thought whereas a sensation is real in some way I think. If thought isn't labelling sensation why do we think certain sensations have certain meanings. Like anxiety or happiness for example


What will the answer to your why question give you? Will it give you certainty? An end to seeking? Finality? Peace? Freedom?

The answer won't give me certainty but I was hoping it might be a pointer toward the truth.

In

stead of asking why, just look at what is actually happening and directly knowable. Sort out what is real from what is fantasy. There is a thought that claims to be about a sensation. Can you provide any proof that the thought is truly about the sensation?

No. There is no proof


If

you can find what you call thought and sensation at the same time then why bother with an artificial differentiation? Can you actually find the division between them?

No. Without thought everything is just one big differentiated mess

These categories that you mention - sensation, sound, thought - can you demonstrate that they are actually distinct phenomena?

Same answer

No I am not sure about that. At one point I was briefly able to see through the terror and see that it was only thought. Brief but definite.

This is very good. So let's explore a little further because while it is a useful stepping stone to be able to see that the problems are only thought stories, that can also turn into an obstacle if it's not immediately discarded.

So look and tell me if you can actually find a thought? Is there actually something there that you can say is for certain a thought? Is there anyone separate who thinks or observes?

Strange because I realized today that I can't actually find anything for certain. There is definitely reality but nothing that can be known per se.

One more thing...I found another expectation today. I have been expecting that upon realization everything would feel like my. As in I would be able to physically sense everything as me. And of course this is not possible as each sensation is limited. I guess I have been acknowledging sensation as evidence of me-ness

Good. So is the experience of physically sensing everything as you, should that arise, inherently significant? Is your present experiences of NOT physically sensing everything as you inherent significant? Does either or any experience provide any evidence of separation?

I see that.

Thanks
Angela

[joeylott]

Angela,

I will suggest that this pursuit of awakening or enlightenment, however you want to imagine it, cannot possibly give you anything. But in the cessation of the pursuit, it is possible to discover that this is enough. You have been looking for something else when what is, is already perfectly obvious and inescapable. Instead of looking for something else, see what happens if you welcome what is without any discrimination or preferences, without the following the compulsion to try to divide it all up into subject/object, this/that, here/there.

The answer won't give me certainty but I was hoping it might be a pointer toward the truth.

What is truth? Is truth hidden? Is it apart from this? Is it apart from you? Can you arrive at it? Can you get nearer to it? Do you have any proof that there is such a thing as truth? Is there anything other than what is right now?

What if the whole pursuit after something else is suffering? What if it is delusion?

Strange because I realized today that I can't actually find anything for certain. There is definitely reality but nothing that can be known per se.

Wonderful. So then why try to solve the uncertain problem for an uncertain individual in which any seeming solution will be uncertain? Why not just remain as the undifferentiated uncertainty to begin with?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

Hi Joey:

I will suggest that this pursuit of awakening or enlightenment, however you want to imagine it, cannot possibly give you anything. But in the cessation of the pursuit, it is possible to discover that this is enough. You have been looking for something else when what is, is already perfectly obvious and inescapable. Instead of looking for something else, see what happens if you welcome what is without any discrimination or preferences, without the following the compulsion to try to divide it all up into subject/object, this/that, here/there

.

I think i am starting to come to that same conclusion although I hadn't quite formulated it so eloquently. I realize that I have been looking to appearances to change to show me that i am "there" which is of course never going to happen in the way i thought it would. I see this is a huge distraction. I have been looking to not find me and then getting all caught up in what i do find-appearances. Instead I am now looking in direction experience to see if i can find any actual distinction between anything.

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What is truth? Is truth hidden? Is it apart from this? Is it apart from you? Can you arrive at it? Can you get nearer to it? Do you have any proof that there is such a thing as truth? Is there anything other than what is right now? What if the whole pursuit after something else is suffering? What if it is delusion?

I see what you are saying. And I do see that seeking or pursuit as you call it is delusion and only serves to strengthen the me feeling. I feel like the compulsion to seek has ebbed and/or softened over the last week or so. I am more simply looking to see what is there but its not like the seeking that was there before.

Wonderful. So then why try to solve the uncertain problem for an uncertain individual in which any seeming solution will be uncertain? Why not just remain as the undifferentiated uncertainty to begin with?

Agreed

Thanks again,
Angela

[joeylott]

Angela,

Let me know if you can still find doubts that remain so that we can explore those.

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

Hi Joey

My only doubts and my main me-ness comes from being ill. The illness and it's attendant anxiety, fatigue etc feel like mine and there is a lot of resistance around this whole illness thing.

Angela

[joeylott]

Angela,

In what way do the "doubts and main me-ness" have a connection with being ill? If you can elaborate on the connection then we can explore it more.

Also, what happens if you drop the resistance to the illness?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

In what way do the "doubts and main me-ness" have a connection with being ill? If you can elaborate on the connection then we can explore it more

when I'm sick which I have been for a couple of weeks now i intellectually know the symptoms etc are just sensations but those sensations stop me from being able to do things physically. A big component of it is anxiety (this anxiety is caused by a physical process with my thyroid gland not an emotional process) which i can't "drop" or get rid of and it feels like its inside me, like it is consuming me. the illness feels very much like it is mine, like it has invaded me.

Also, what happens if you drop the resistance to the illness?

I don't know how to drop the resistance. I feel like I'm hanging on for dear life.

Angela

[joeylott]

Angela,

As it turns out, I am extremely familiar with thyroid complications and the resultant anxiety.

Let's explore this.

Do you need to drop the anxiety? Does the anxiety obscure being? Is the anxiety separate from aliveness? Are you separate from the anxiety?

Instead of dropping the resistance, what happens if you allow the resistance? Soften the resistance to the resistance?

Remember, the goal is not to get rid of anything. Simply allow and see that your permission isn't needed in the first place. After all, is there any separate self who can grant or deny permission? Is there anyone separate from what is happening?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

As it turns out, I am extremely familiar with thyroid complications and the resultant anxiety.

Let's explore this.

Do you need to drop the anxiety? Does the anxiety obscure being? Is the anxiety separate from aliveness? Are you separate from the anxiety?

I see that the anxiety doesn't actually obscure being but it sure SEEMS to. It's like it colours everything a certain colour. I do see though that it isn't separate from aliveness or me. I see that it appears seamlessly along with everything else. I also see I harbour a not-so-secret desire to wake up so I never have to feel like this again. I know this comes from things I have read about people who are realized not having fear anymore and that sounds pretty damn desirable right now (don't worry I see all the seeking and striving in this and i know that they are appearances)

Remember, the goal is not to get rid of anything. Simply allow and see that your permission isn't needed in the first place. After all, is there any separate self who can grant or deny permission? Is there anyone separate from what is happening?

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I'm glad you reminded me the goal isn't to get rid of anything. After I read this yesterday I used that reminder frequently. I love your reminder about "is there any separate self who can grant or deny permission" - of course I didn't find one which seems to really loosen things up for me. Beautiful reminder!! I mostly see that there is no one separate from what is happening but man its way easier to flow with that when everything is "easy" if you know what I mean.

Instead of dropping the resistance, what happens if you allow the resistance? Soften the resistance to the resistance?

This really helped me too. There was definitely a softening and a feeling that I don't know why/what I am defending with resistance. What is there to resist (rhetorical)??

Angela