Looking for a guide

[Angela12]

Hi Joey:

I invite you to drop all concepts in the exploration. Drop all assumptions. Here it sounds to me as though you are assuming some things. Namely, you "intuit" that what you are "must be stillness". But what is stillness? If you tell the whole truth, are you subtly comparing what is with some idea of what stillness must be?

You are correct. I am having some trouble even seeing the assumptions sometimes. They just come so naturally. I can’t describe stillness except by negation. It is the negation of all appearances. It is what appearances appear in and are made of. As appearances arise I am that stillness, the “thing” for lack of a better word that is the background (again this is a poor word as it is not separate from the foreground).

brewera wrote:-instruction as a cause and effect. It seems thought can give instruction (so to speak) and then some action follows this. For example if i tell myself to close my eyes, closing the eyes then follows. I guess I am asking about volition here

There are various ways that we can explore this. I'll ask you just a few questions to guide that exploration.

Give the instruction to close your eyes. Then close your eyes. With eyes closed, in direct experience is there presently any evidence that cause and effect led to this experience? Can you find time in direct experience? Is the thought "close your eyes" capable of doing anything?

In direct experience the only link is another thought (appearance) that says they are linked. I can find no time in direct experience and I get that no time means no cause and effect but it “seems” like there is time because appearances come and go.

No, the thought ’close your eyes’ is incapable of doing anything. But I still don’t understand why it appears that there is cause and effect.

With eyes closed and in direct experience can you find an "in here" or an "out there"? Explore this thoroughly with eyes closed. Then explore with eyes open.

This is easier for me with eyes closed but I still don’t feel like I am fully understanding it. I see, with eyes closed, that direct experience includes everything so there is no inside and outside. With eyes open I still have a faint sense of this but it is much less clear.

brewera wrote:- an expectation of an outcome- I am still waiting for the switch to flip or something to snap into place. I realize I am also waiting for some big wave of love to come get me or something

Our experiences are all unique. For some that is what seems to happen. Imagine for a moment that such an event were to happen in your experience. Would it have any inherent meaning?

For some there seems to be a dramatic experience that seems to confirm something. But such an experience is more likely to be a source of delusion than a source of clarity in many cases. Be careful what you wish for!

I am stuck on the belief that it would. I don’t see how you can “realize” no separate self without some kind of shift in how things feel or are experienced. There must be some kind of shift when one realizes fully that they are not a separate self. I’m not looking for anything dramatic here (no petaled lotus or blue pearl or all that) just a kind of quiet “oh yeah”- I know that is still an expectation.

What would it feel like to be not separate?

I am pretty sure we have had this dance once before but I’m game for another go around…I don’t expect it would feel like anything. Rather I would expect the absence of the feeling of separation.

What does it feel like to be permeated with the understanding?

I’m having trouble describing what I mean here… I think I mean to KNOW absolutely without doubt that there is no separation. And by KNOW I don’t mean intellectually.

Yes. In my experience this discovery comes about very differently than most acquisitions. So it requires being like a child - like an infant - discarding everything you think you know. Then you are in a much better position.

I will endeavour to use this approach. I used to approach direct experience like I was a baby and at first it provided a lot of clarity and then for some reason I wasn’t able to use that stance anymore. Not sure what happened there.

brewera wrote:I so want to be done with seeking.

Please describe the experience of seeking. Describe what you find in direct experience,

Seeking= sensation. I get that but it remains and grows stronger. In my mind I know this doesn't have any inherent meaning but that gives me no sense of being free from it or not being compelled by it. I feel wholly consumed by it.

Angela

Angela

[joeylott]

Angela,

You are correct. I am having some trouble even seeing the assumptions sometimes. They just come so naturally. I can’t describe stillness except by negation. It is the negation of all appearances. It is what appearances appear in and are made of. As appearances arise I am that stillness, the “thing” for lack of a better word that is the background (again this is a poor word as it is not separate from the foreground).

Is this what you directly experience?

it “seems” like there is time because appearances come and go.

Sure. Is this a problem? Are you expecting or hoping that the appearance of time will go away? What would be the benefit of that?

No, the thought ’close your eyes’ is incapable of doing anything. But I still don’t understand why it appears that there is cause and effect.

You are looking for why. Would the answer to why give you anything? And in any case, if upon looking it is evident that there is no time, nothing happening, no cause, and no effect, then what is the problem with the appearance of cause an effect? If you watch a movie is it a problem that it appears as though something is happening on the screen even though you know it is just a movie?

This is easier for me with eyes closed but I still don’t feel like I am fully understanding it. I see, with eyes closed, that direct experience includes everything so there is no inside and outside. With eyes open I still have a faint sense of this but it is much less clear.

Is this a problem?

I am stuck on the belief that it would. I don’t see how you can “realize” no separate self without some kind of shift in how things feel or are experienced. There must be some kind of shift when one realizes fully that they are not a separate self. I’m not looking for anything dramatic here (no petaled lotus or blue pearl or all that) just a kind of quiet “oh yeah”- I know that is still an expectation.

When would this shift happen? What are you waiting for? Do you need permission?

I am pretty sure we have had this dance once before but I’m game for another go around…I don’t expect it would feel like anything. Rather I would expect the absence of the feeling of separation.

You could hire someone to knock you unconscious. That might give you the desired effect.

Seriously, though, would the absence of feelings signify anything? Why do feelings need to go away? What are feelings to you?

What does it feel like to be permeated with the understanding?

I’m having trouble describing what I mean here… I think I mean to KNOW absolutely without doubt that there is no separation. And by KNOW I don’t mean intellectually.

I suspect that you're having a hard time describing it because you're deceiving yourself. Or, to put it in question format: will that knowing be something that is not happening presently? If so, then will it not disappear the same as all experience disappears?

I will endeavour to use this approach. I used to approach direct experience like I was a baby and at first it provided a lot of clarity and then for some reason I wasn’t able to use that stance anymore. Not sure what happened there.

Let me know how you get on with this.

Seeking= sensation. I get that but it remains and grows stronger. In my mind I know this doesn't have any inherent meaning but that gives me no sense of being free from it or not being compelled by it. I feel wholly consumed by it.

If seeking=sensation and you want to be done with seeking then does that mean you want to be done with sensation? Or, at least, done with a particular type of sensation?

See what happens if you stop struggling against it. If you feel wholly consumed by it, then really allow for that. Offer no defense. Let me know what you find.

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

As appearances arise I am that stillness, the “thing” for lack of a better word that is the background (again this is a poor word as it is not separate from the foreground).
Is this what you directly experience?

What I directly experience isn’t really describable. I just looked back at your original question on this “are you subtly comparing what is to some concept of what stillness is?” and the answer is yes there is a subtle comparison. Stillness is a concept so it is not direct experience. But it’s hard to have a conversation without using concepts.

I think I need a bit more guidance here as I’m not really sure what I experience in direct experience.

brewera wrote:it “seems” like there is time because appearances come and go.
Sure. Is this a problem? Are you expecting or hoping that the appearance of time will go away? What would be the benefit of that?

No, I’m not expecting time to go away. I am expecting (if I’m honest) that I will live more in “the now” and less in the mind, which to my observation is only concerned with past and future (mostly future realization).

brewera wrote:No, the thought ’close your eyes’ is incapable of doing anything. But I still don’t understand why it appears that there is cause and effect.
You are looking for why. Would the answer to why give you anything? And in any case, if upon looking it is evident that there is no time, nothing happening, no cause, and no effect, then what is the problem with the appearance of cause an effect? If you watch a movie is it a problem that it appears as though something is happening on the screen even though you know it is just a movie?

OHHHH! I get it- the thought that there is cause and effect is itself an appearance.

brewera wrote:This is easier for me with eyes closed but I still don’t feel like I am fully understanding it. I see, with eyes closed, that direct experience includes everything so there is no inside and outside. With eyes open I still have a faint sense of this but it is much less clear.
Is this a problem?

It feels like a problem. It feels like a barrier.

brewera wrote:I am stuck on the belief that it would. I don’t see how you can “realize” no separate self without some kind of shift in how things feel or are experienced. There must be some kind of shift when one realizes fully that they are not a separate self. I’m not looking for anything dramatic here (no petaled lotus or blue pearl or all that) just a kind of quiet “oh yeah”- I know that is still an expectation.

When would this shift happen? What are you waiting for? Do you need permission?

I don’t understand the last two questions.

Seriously, though, would the absence of feelings signify anything? Why do feelings need to go away? What are feelings to you?

Okay, I think I see what you’re saying. The “separate self” feeling is just a phenomenon. But there must be some dis-identification with the feeling of separation then. Otherwise nothing changes and there is still identification with separation.

What does it feel like to be permeated with the understanding?

I’m having trouble describing what I mean here… I think I mean to KNOW absolutely without doubt that there is no separation. And by KNOW I don’t mean intellectually.

I suspect that you're having a hard time describing it because you're deceiving yourself. Or, to put it in question format: will that knowing be something that is not happening presently? If so, then will it not disappear the same as all experience disappears?

Arggh! I see what you are saying but to be very pointed- there are people on this site “seeking guidance” and there are people who are guides. To me there is a difference. One set has realized the truth (or whatever you want to call it) and the other hasn’t. if there is no knowing of that difference then how do you tell one from the other? I know you’re trying to point me to something here but I’m just not getting it. Is there not, at some point, a permanent knowing (like a visceral knowing, like a certainty beyond all doubt, like the “peace that passeth all understanding” knowing) that all phenomenon come and go and are not you but at the same time are not separate from you? I honestly have never felt so completely inadequate at anything in my whole life

brewera wrote:I will endeavour to use this approach. I used to approach direct experience like I was a baby and at first it provided a lot of clarity and then for some reason I wasn’t able to use that stance anymore. Not sure what happened there.

Let me know how you get on with this.

I’m am endeavouring to use this but I notice I get stuck a lot in thought- busy trying to logically figure it out like I do with other things (work, etc.)

If seeking=sensation and you want to be done with seeking then does that mean you want to be done with sensation? Or, at least, done with a particular type of sensation?

No, I just want to be free from identification with it.

See what happens if you stop struggling against it. If you feel wholly consumed by it, then really allow for that. Offer no defense. Let me know what you find.

I’m going to work with this for a while and then respond. I have equal parts a compulsion to seek and a sense of overwhelming frustration with the whole thing. Like wanting to ride a roller coaster and equally wanting to get the hell off of it!

Thanks,
Angela

[joeylott]

What I directly experience isn’t really describable. I just looked back at your original question on this “are you subtly comparing what is to some concept of what stillness is?” and the answer is yes there is a subtle comparison. Stillness is a concept so it is not direct experience. But it’s hard to have a conversation without using concepts.

The conversation is only to point you to what is indescribable. When you see what is being pointed to then the opportunity is to simply remain there. Don't move. No conversation is necessary when you remain as yourself.

No, I’m not expecting time to go away. I am expecting (if I’m honest) that I will live more in “the now” and less in the mind, which to my observation is only concerned with past and future (mostly future realization).

I'd like you to try get out of "the now". Try your hardest. Let me know what you find.

When and where are the thoughts about past and future appearing?

It feels like a problem. It feels like a barrier.

Prove to me that there is a problem. Feeling is not proof.

When would this shift happen? What are you waiting for? Do you need permission?

I don’t understand the last two questions.

I'm suggesting that you seem to be waiting for some confirmation. So what will that be? And why do you need to wait for the confirmation? What is your hesitation? Why do you doubt your own actual experience? You find over and over that there is no separate self, no time, no findable meaning, no cause, no effect, no separation - so what authority needs to give you permission? I'm asking you to take a look for yourself at this to explore the roots of the insecurity and doubt.

Okay, I think I see what you’re saying. The “separate self” feeling is just a phenomenon. But there must be some dis-identification with the feeling of separation then. Otherwise nothing changes and there is still identification with separation.

Has there ever been a separate self? If no, then why would anything need to change? There was a misundertanding. That's all. You mistook the mirage to be water. Then you see that it was only ever a mirage. So why does anything need to change?

Arggh! I see what you are saying but to be very pointed- there are people on this site “seeking guidance” and there are people who are guides. To me there is a difference. One set has realized the truth (or whatever you want to call it) and the other hasn’t. if there is no knowing of that difference then how do you tell one from the other?

How do you tell the difference? I'm asking you. What is your criteria? Is it not merely an assumption? What evidence do you have that I have "realized the truth" and that you have not?

Is there not, at some point, a permanent knowing (like a visceral knowing, like a certainty beyond all doubt, like the “peace that passeth all understanding” knowing) that all phenomenon come and go and are not you but at the same time are not separate from you?

This is good. We are uncovering your expectations. What happens if you simply let go of these expectations for a moment? Leave all of the compulsive seeking alone for just a moment. Let go of everything. Just rest. What do you find? What is here? Is anything needed? Is there any room for doubt when you let go of all the seeking?

I honestly have never felt so completely inadequate at anything in my whole life

Good. Then you have a choice: keep trying to apply the same failed strategies OR let go of all strategies.

I’m am endeavouring to use this but I notice I get stuck a lot in thought- busy trying to logically figure it out like I do with other things (work, etc.)

Good. Instead of fighting with the phenomenon that you call "getting stuck in thought" just meet it directly without any preconceptions. Drop all the judgments. Forget what you think you know.

If seeking=sensation and you want to be done with seeking then does that mean you want to be done with sensation? Or, at least, done with a particular type of sensation?

No, I just want to be free from identification with it.

I would like you to identify fully with it. Do this for 30 seconds. Let me know what you find.

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

Hi Joey:

The conversation is only to point you to what is indescribable. When you see what is being pointed to then the opportunity is to simply remain there. Don't move. No conversation is necessary when you remain as yourself.

I see that

I'd like you to try get out of "the now". Try your hardest. Let me know what you find.

LOL- impossible of course.

When and where are the thoughts about past and future appearing?

In the now. So obvious when you point me to it.

brewera wrote:It feels like a problem. It feels like a barrier.
Prove to me that there is a problem. Feeling is not proof.

If feeling is not proof then I have no proof.

brewera wrote:
When would this shift happen? What are you waiting for? Do you need permission?
I don’t understand the last two questions.
I'm suggesting that you seem to be waiting for some confirmation. So what will that be? And why do you need to wait for the confirmation? What is your hesitation? Why do you doubt your own actual experience? You find over and over that there is no separate self, no time, no findable meaning, no cause, no effect, no separation - so what authority needs to give you permission? I'm asking you to take a look for yourself at this to explore the roots of the insecurity and doubt.

Okay, now I understand. I’m not sure what authority. I don't know where the hesitation comes from. Maybe I’m a bit stuck on thinking that what I am has some inherent qualities. The ones that come to mind are peace, love, stillness, freedom etc. I know a “quality” is an experience and I know the conventional meanings of the words I have used doesn't really come close to what I mean, I have been looking at this and I have noticed that the vicious circular thinking around this keeps me from actually noticing that there is nothing – no thing in actuality because when I get anywhere near that there I fear. It’s a very quick flash of fear, but fear nonetheless and then thought takes off again.

As to the not finding a separate self – on the one hand I don’t find a separate self and on the other hand there is a definitely the essence of a separate self feeling that is identified with. For some reason, not finding something is not proof to me that that thing doesn't exist. Okay, now that I rambled I think that that last observation I just made is the real sticking point. I experience the same quality of stickiness around not finding a boundary. Does not finding a boundary prove there is no boundary? Does not finding a separate self mean there is no separate self?

Has there ever been a separate self? If no, then why would anything need to change? There was a misundertanding. That's all. You mistook the mirage to be water. Then you see that it was only ever a mirage. So why does anything need to change?

So then is there not the dropping of the misunderstanding or a dis-identification with the misunderstanding? For example if i misunderstood 2+2 to equal 5 and then someone pointed me to the correct understanding i would henceforth drop the misunderstanding and I would know that i had dropped it. It might even seem silly that i ever believed it in the first place.

brewera wrote: Arggh! I see what you are saying but to be very pointed- there are people on this site “seeking guidance” and there are people who are guides. To me there is a difference. One set has realized the truth (or whatever you want to call it) and the other hasn't. if there is no knowing of that difference then how do you tell one from the other?
How do you tell the difference? I'm asking you. What is your criteria? Is it not merely an assumption? What evidence do you have that I have "realized the truth" and that you have not?

Well there different colours of the user names….seriously I can’t tell the difference for sure. I am definitely assuming based on accounts I have read. The only proof I have that you have realized the truth is your apparent ability to guide. If you hadn't realized then I think that guidance would just seem like spiritual mumbo-jumbo, but your questions are very pointed like a professor who has a good grasp of a subject (bad metaphor I know). For example, there would be a big difference (I assume) between someone who had read all about wine, studied wine and had a degree in wine but had never tasted wine describing wine to me and someone who had tasted wine describing it to me. Night and day in my opinion (yes, I realize I am heaping assumption on top of assumption)

brewera wrote:Is there not, at some point, a permanent knowing (like a visceral knowing, like a certainty beyond all doubt, like the “peace that passeth all understanding” knowing) that all phenomenon come and go and are not you but at the same time are not separate from you?

This is good. We are uncovering your expectations. What happens if you simply let go of these expectations for a moment? Leave all of the compulsive seeking alone for just a moment. Let go of everything. Just rest. What do you find? What is here? Is anything needed? Is there any room for doubt when you let go of all the seeking?

Well, that was interesting...there is some fear about letting go of the seeking. And some resistance about just resting. There is definitely some identity around it. I’m a bit surprised by that because it is not something I talk about or join groups about or anything. It has been a very personal journey.

Questions now arise like “what will I do if I am not seeking?” “If I never seek anything again what will happen, will I just sit here like a lump?”

brewera wrote:I honestly have never felt so completely inadequate at anything in my whole life

Good. Then you have a choice: keep trying to apply the same failed strategies OR let go of all strategies.

Good point. I kind of expected that these strategies would wear themselves out but not so far. Having said that I have always been a bit baffled by the instruction to let go. I really don’t know how to do that (and please don’t say just let go). Does it mean just noticing the seeking is just an appearance like any other?

brewera wrote:I’m am endeavouring to use this but I notice I get stuck a lot in thought- busy trying to logically figure it out like I do with other things (work, etc.)

Good. Instead of fighting with the phenomenon that you call "getting stuck in thought" just meet it directly without any preconceptions. Drop all the judgments. Forget what you think you know.

I will try that.

brewera wrote:
If seeking=sensation and you want to be done with seeking then does that mean you want to be done with sensation? Or, at least, done with a particular type of sensation?

No, I just want to be free from identification with it.

I would like you to identify fully with it. Do this for 30 seconds. Let me know what you find.

I am going to do this when the seeking feeling is stronger. It’s not here so much at the moment.

Much thanks,
Angela

[joeylott]

Okay, now I understand. I’m not sure what authority. I don't know where the hesitation comes from. Maybe I’m a bit stuck on thinking that what I am has some inherent qualities. The ones that come to mind are peace, love, stillness, freedom etc. I know a “quality” is an experience and I know the conventional meanings of the words I have used doesn't really come close to what I mean,

In my experience what I am pointing toward has no qualities. All qualities come from it. But in its most fundamental nature there are no qualities. At the same time the qualities you attribute to your true nature aren't far off. There's some truth there. But in my experience you can't truly recognize the truth of that for yourself when you start with the assumption that there is something there. You have to be willing to drop all assumptions and fully meet the absence of qualities first.

So take a look right now in direct experience. Are there any qualities that you can unhesitatingly, unquestionably assign to what is here?

I have been looking at this and I have noticed that the vicious circular thinking around this keeps me from actually noticing that there is nothing – no thing in actuality because when I get anywhere near that there I fear. It’s a very quick flash of fear, but fear nonetheless and then thought takes off again.

What you describe sounds very familiar to me. You catch a glimpse of yourself as you are. And then there is a knee-jerk reaction - the fear you describe. So the opportunity here is to remain perfectly still in this moment. Meet the fear. Welcome whatever happens. It may feel like it will kill you. So then make the choice to remain still anyway. Let me know what you find.

As to the not finding a separate self – on the one hand I don’t find a separate self and on the other hand there is a definitely the essence of a separate self feeling that is identified with. For some reason, not finding something is not proof to me that that thing doesn't exist. Okay, now that I rambled I think that that last observation I just made is the real sticking point. I experience the same quality of stickiness around not finding a boundary. Does not finding a boundary prove there is no boundary? Does not finding a separate self mean there is no separate self?

Let's imagine a slightly different scenario. Let's imagine that you've grown up all your life in a culture that teaches you that you are a purple rhinoceros. Then you meet me and I tell you that you are not a purple rhinoceros. I invite you to explore for yourself to see if it is possible to find any evidence of a purple rhinoceros. You cannot find one. But still, a lifetime of conditioning suggests that you need some sort of "proof" that you are not a purple rhinoceros - not just the absence of evidence that any such thing exists at all. But since there never was one, what proof of the non-existence could be offered other than not being able to find one?

So then is there not the dropping of the misunderstanding or a dis-identification with the misunderstanding? For example if i misunderstood 2+2 to equal 5 and then someone pointed me to the correct understanding i would henceforth drop the misunderstanding and I would know that i had dropped it. It might even seem silly that i ever believed it in the first place.

Your analogy is apt to a point. The difference is that it is possible to demonstrate not only that 2+2 does not equal 5, but that it does, in fact, equal 4, whereas in the case of the assumption of a separate self it is possible to discover the falsity of the claim, but it isn't possible to prove the existence of existence itself. Existence is self-evident. It requires no proof. So instead, we can only rely on undoing or revealing the transparency of the assumption of a separate self.

You have believed that there was a separate self existing in time in an objective world. Prove to me that this is so. If you cannot, then you have to at least admit that the foundation from which you have seemingly lived your life is shaky.

Well there different colours of the user names….seriously I can’t tell the difference for sure. I am definitely assuming based on accounts I have read. The only proof I have that you have realized the truth is your apparent ability to guide. If you hadn't realized then I think that guidance would just seem like spiritual mumbo-jumbo, but your questions are very pointed like a professor who has a good grasp of a subject (bad metaphor I know). For example, there would be a big difference (I assume) between someone who had read all about wine, studied wine and had a degree in wine but had never tasted wine describing wine to me and someone who had tasted wine describing it to me. Night and day in my opinion (yes, I realize I am heaping assumption on top of assumption)

You are correct that the only way to guide is to speak from the clarity of direct experience. If there is a difference between you and me, though, I would have to say that it is that I no longer seek for something other than what is unavoidable and completely obvious. Nothing needs to be added to you. You have all that I have. You just have more. So we're exploring the assumptions to lighten your burden. Wherever there are doubts, we will keep exploring until you are satisfied that there is no more ability to believe in what is not obvious.

Well, that was interesting...there is some fear about letting go of the seeking. And some resistance about just resting. There is definitely some identity around it. I’m a bit surprised by that because it is not something I talk about or join groups about or anything. It has been a very personal journey.

Questions now arise like “what will I do if I am not seeking?” “If I never seek anything again what will happen, will I just sit here like a lump?”

We've been seeking an identity in some fashion for a long time - all of us. Not just spiritual seeking. So to give up seeking - even for just a second - is to give up what you've imagined yourself to be. It's usually terrifying.

The answer to your questions can only be found by letting go of seeking. Let go just for a second. Then another second. Then another. Keep letting go. And see what happens.

Good point. I kind of expected that these strategies would wear themselves out but not so far. Having said that I have always been a bit baffled by the instruction to let go. I really don’t know how to do that (and please don’t say just let go). Does it mean just noticing the seeking is just an appearance like any other?

It may be useful to explore holding on since that is the active state that seems to preclude letting go.

Grab ahold of something in your hand. Hold on tightly. Keep holding on. Hold on longer. Hold on until it is unpleasant to do so. Then let go.

Next, pick a storyline from your life - past or future projection - something that you can play through in imagination. It can be pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Play the scene or fantasy over and over and over. Keep holding on. Keep playing it until it becomes unpleasant. Then let go.

Notice in each case how you let go.

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

In my experience what I am pointing toward has no qualities. All qualities come from it. But in its most fundamental nature there are no qualities. At the same time the qualities you attribute to your true nature aren't far off. There's some truth there. But in my experience you can't truly recognize the truth of that for yourself when you start with the assumption that there is something there. You have to be willing to drop all assumptions and fully meet the absence of qualities first.

So take a look right now in direct experience. Are there any qualities that you can unhesitatingly, unquestionably assign to what is here?

No, there are no qualities that I can assign. Its there (I’m there) and I know that and that’s about all it can say.

As you may note my first instinct is not to identify it as myself which is weird. It’s like I’m looking to see if it’s there and by doing that I must be making it into an object. i have definitely introduced duality into it. Can you give me some pointers on that please.

What you describe sounds very familiar to me. You catch a glimpse of yourself as you are. And then there is a knee-jerk reaction - the fear you describe. So the opportunity here is to remain perfectly still in this moment. Meet the fear. Welcome whatever happens. It may feel like it will kill you. So then make the choice to remain still anyway. Let me know what you find.

So far when the fear comes it only lasts a split second so it has been hard to remain with it. If a I get a chance I will do so.

Let's imagine a slightly different scenario. Let's imagine that you've grown up all your life in a culture that teaches you that you are a purple rhinoceros. Then you meet me and I tell you that you are not a purple rhinoceros. I invite you to explore for yourself to see if it is possible to find any evidence of a purple rhinoceros. You cannot find one. But still, a lifetime of conditioning suggests that you need some sort of "proof" that you are not a purple rhinoceros - not just the absence of evidence that any such thing exists at all. But since there never was one, what proof of the non-existence could be offered other than not being able to find one?

I see that but it’s not quite satisfying to me somehow.

Your analogy is apt to a point. The difference is that it is possible to demonstrate not only that 2+2 does not equal 5, but that it does, in fact, equal 4, whereas in the case of the assumption of a separate self it is possible to discover the falsity of the claim, but it isn't possible to prove the existence of existence itself. Existence is self-evident. It requires no proof. So instead, we can only rely on undoing or revealing the transparency of the assumption of a separate self.

You have believed that there was a separate self existing in time in an objective world. Prove to me that this is so. If you cannot, then you have to at least admit that the foundation from which you have seemingly lived your life is shaky.

Yes, I readily admit the foundation is shaky and I’m not at all sure where the hesitance comes from but it’s definitely there.

You are correct that the only way to guide is to speak from the clarity of direct experience. If there is a difference between you and me, though, I would have to say that it is that I no longer seek for something other than what is unavoidable and completely obvious. Nothing needs to be added to you. You have all that I have. You just have more. So we're exploring the assumptions to lighten your burden. Wherever there are doubts, we will keep exploring until you are satisfied that there is no more ability to believe in what is not obvious.

Sounds good. I welcome my unburdening!

We've been seeking an identity in some fashion for a long time - all of us. Not just spiritual seeking. So to give up seeking - even for just a second - is to give up what you've imagined yourself to be. It's usually terrifying.

The answer to your questions can only be found by letting go of seeking. Let go just for a second. Then another second. Then another. Keep letting go. And see what happens.

I will see how this goes. There is a deep feeling of dissatisfaction that I can’t just do this. in some ways i felt i was closer to the truth at the beginning of our investigations.

It may be useful to explore holding on since that is the active state that seems to preclude letting go.

Grab ahold of something in your hand. Hold on tightly. Keep holding on. Hold on longer. Hold on until it is unpleasant to do so. Then let go.

Next, pick a storyline from your life - past or future projection - something that you can play through in imagination. It can be pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Play the scene or fantasy over and over and over. Keep holding on. Keep playing it until it becomes unpleasant. Then let go.
Notice in each case how you let go.

I relax the tension around it. I relax the effort. Okay, to be honest I “just let go” –LOL. I think I see what you’re pointing to. Seeking itself as a sensation can’t compel action. You have shown me that all sensations are inherently meaningless and I must be giving seeking some meaning in order to feel that it compels action (or anything else for that matter). I also realize that my expectation was that seeking would just fall away once I was realized. Now I see that perhaps it’s a habit that will continue to arise but doesn’t actually mean anything.
I also realized that I think there is some value in seeking. As in I truly believe it will get my somewhere, as in if I just stop how to I get to “the end”- interesting.
Is there a question I could use to break this identification with seeking oh master of questions?
Another expectation I has unearthed is that I am waiting for a magic bullet so to speak to make this all clear. I notice myself trying to take shortcuts through this every once in a while.

Thanks,
Angela

[joeylott]

As you may note my first instinct is not to identify it as myself which is weird. It’s like I’m looking to see if it’s there and by doing that I must be making it into an object. i have definitely introduced duality into it. Can you give me some pointers on that please.

Is there any need to identify as anything? Is there value in identifying as something? Can you actually identify as something? What is identification?

I see that but it’s not quite satisfying to me somehow.

It won't be satisfying to the compulsion to seek. But tell the truth - will anything satisfy that compulsion?

I will see how this goes. There is a deep feeling of dissatisfaction that I can’t just do this. in some ways i felt i was closer to the truth at the beginning of our investigations.

You can't do it. The end of seeking is the end of identity. Identity is seeking.

If you've been seeking for truth for years then you might want to admit that you weren't very successful. So perhaps your feelings about proximity to truth aren't very good indicators. You may be better off letting go of the search entirely. Just rest with what is.

Was the search a hope that you could become a special someone? Perhaps you might be able to escape the "bad" stuff?

I relax the tension around it. I relax the effort. Okay, to be honest I “just let go” –LOL. I think I see what you’re pointing to. Seeking itself as a sensation can’t compel action. You have shown me that all sensations are inherently meaningless and I must be giving seeking some meaning in order to feel that it compels action (or anything else for that matter). I also realize that my expectation was that seeking would just fall away once I was realized. Now I see that perhaps it’s a habit that will continue to arise but doesn’t actually mean anything.
I also realized that I think there is some value in seeking. As in I truly believe it will get my somewhere, as in if I just stop how to I get to “the end”- interesting.

This is very good. And yes, the search is all about getting to the end of the search. But ending the search obviously is the end of the search. So the goal of the search is the death of the search. The search is greatly motivated NOT to attain its goal. You must keep searching indefinitely in order to maintain the search, which is the identity.

So when you see this, the opportunity is to stop.

Is there a question I could use to break this identification with seeking oh master of questions?

Seeking is identification. You cannot break identification with seeking. However, you can simply explore to see whether it is actually possible for you to identify/seek. Can you identity? Can you seek?

Another expectation I has unearthed is that I am waiting for a magic bullet so to speak to make this all clear. I notice myself trying to take shortcuts through this every once in a while.

Take the ultimate shortcut. Let go. Stop. Just for a moment. Then remain as you are. And tell the truth - is it ever possible for you to be other than you are? Does anything that apparently happens affect you?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

Hi Joey:

Is there any need to identify as anything? Is there value in identifying as something? Can you actually identify as something? What is identification?

I see there is no need to identify as anything nor is there any value. Great pointer on whether I can actually identify as anything. I could never BE a phenomenon. I still get stumped on something but I can’t quite understand what it is. When we first started our conversation it seemed so clear that when I looked for the doer, the thinker, etc. there wasn’t one. Now it is much less so. I think I may have intellectualized too much or something.

brewera wrote:I see that but it’s not quite satisfying to me somehow.

It won't be satisfying to the compulsion to seek. But tell the truth - will anything satisfy that compulsion?

No, nothing with satisfy that compulsion. But the compulsion and the seeking must end at some point.

brewera wrote:I will see how this goes. There is a deep feeling of dissatisfaction that I can’t just do this. in some ways i felt i was closer to the truth at the beginning of our investigations.

You can't do it. The end of seeking is the end of identity. Identity is seeking.

If you've been seeking for truth for years then you might want to admit that you weren't very successful. So perhaps your feelings about proximity to truth aren't very good indicators. You may be better off letting go of the search entirely. Just rest with what is.

Was the search a hope that you could become a special someone? Perhaps you might be able to escape the "bad" stuff?

I admit I have been not only unsuccessful but pretty much a total failure at this. You are likely quite right about my feeling of proximity. It doesn’t feel like I can let go of the search but more like the search has to let go of me.

At first when I embarked on this years ago I did feel like it would make me a special someone, now I just want it to leave me alone sometimes. I also thought it would cure my illness and make me happy all the time but I see that those phenomena won’t change. Then I think what’s the point? And yet the seeking continues.

This is very good. And yes, the search is all about getting to the end of the search. But ending the search obviously is the end of the search. So the goal of the search is the death of the search. The search is greatly motivated NOT to attain its goal. You must keep searching indefinitely in order to maintain the search, which is the identity.

So when you see this, the opportunity is to stop.

OMG! Why can’t I get this? So frustrated. I can see that the harder I try the more frustrated I am and I know that stopping is the thing to do but…

Seeking is identification. You cannot break identification with seeking. However, you can simply explore to see whether it is actually possible for you to identify/seek. Can you identity? Can you seek?

I am going to work on this for awhile.

Take the ultimate shortcut. Let go. Stop. Just for a moment. Then remain as you are. And tell the truth - is it ever possible for you to be other than you are? Does anything that apparently happens affect you?

This is where I am having trouble now. I don’t know what I am or how to remain there. Wow, I feel like its one step forward and twelve steps back. I really hope this isn’t as frustrating for you as it is for me.

Angela

[joeylott]

When we first started our conversation it seemed so clear that when I looked for the doer, the thinker, etc. there wasn’t one. Now it is much less so. I think I may have intellectualized too much or something.

That's normal. Experiences come and go. Frankly, you've reported with great clarity many times that you cannot find a separate self. That is a useful "stepping stone", as it were. But it's not a destination. There's no need to constantly have a particular experience of clarity about that. Experiences change all the time.

No, nothing with satisfy that compulsion. But the compulsion and the seeking must end at some point.

Just to pay devil's advocate, what is your proof that they must end at some point? Sure, it seems unlikely that they would last forever. But can you deny the possibility?

Are the compulsion and seeking yours or about you?

I admit I have been not only unsuccessful but pretty much a total failure at this. You are likely quite right about my feeling of proximity. It doesn’t feel like I can let go of the search but more like the search has to let go of me.

Here's what I'd like you do to. For a few moments relax every muscle in your body. Allow everything to sink into the chair where you are sitting. Release any tension, no matter how small. Then see if you can find the search.

Does the search exist as such when there is complete letting go?

There may be some phenomenon - some sense of movement or what may seem to be almost a compulsion. However, keep letting go completely. And as you are completely letting go can you say for sure that there is actually any movement or any compulsion? Can you say for sure that anything is happening?

In the relative stillness the actuality of what receives it all, which is it all, the essential stillness may appear to be more readily palpable. But then see if this which receives it all is ever not here.

Can any experience diminish or augment the stillness which receives it all? Is the stillness which receives it all separate from that which seems to come and go? Is there any boundary to be found at all?

Is there actually a search to be found? Is there a you to be found? Can either hold on to or let go of either?

At first when I embarked on this years ago I did feel like it would make me a special someone, now I just want it to leave me alone sometimes. I also thought it would cure my illness and make me happy all the time but I see that those phenomena won’t change. Then I think what’s the point? And yet the seeking continues.

This is good. Can you say with all honesty that you truly have given up all hope in the search panning out as you'd hoped it might?

OMG! Why can’t I get this? So frustrated. I can see that the harder I try the more frustrated I am and I know that stopping is the thing to do but…

On the one hand it is true that you cannot stop. So take a look and see how it is that you already are stillness. Stillness cannot stop because it is already still. Can you sense the stillness?

Relatively there is the appearance of movement. But when you look closely can you say for certain that anything is actually moving?

This is where I am having trouble now. I don’t know what I am or how to remain there. Wow, I feel like its one step forward and twelve steps back. I really hope this isn’t as frustrating for you as it is for me.

Do you have genuine doubt but what you exist? By now it is obvious that you cannot define what exists -= what you are. But can you actually seriously doubt but what you exist? What value is there in defining yourself? Isn't that the game you've played all your apparent life?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

That's normal. Experiences come and go. Frankly, you've reported with great clarity many times that you cannot find a separate self. That is a useful "stepping stone", as it were. But it's not a destination. There's no need to constantly have a particular experience of clarity about that. Experiences change all the time

.

Okay. Fair enough. I guess I am expecting some kind if experience that doesn't change which is of course impossible. I'm a bit stuck on how I can know myself as awareness without experiencing it. For someone who didn't think they had a lot of expectations I am unearthing quite a few!

No, nothing with satisfy that compulsion. But the compulsion and the seeking must end at some point.

Just to pay devil's advocate, what is your proof that they must end at some point? Sure, it seems unlikely that they would last forever. But can you deny the possibility?

Are the compulsion and seeking yours or about you?

I can't deny that it is a possibility. I see that the compulsion and seeking aren't mine and that the subsequent feeling of them being mine along with a thought are also not mine. This isn't fully clear but I can glimpse it. Even though that is the case there is a persistent feeling of me still here- in the body. I keep going back to it and on some level i can see it's an appearance but on another level it feels like me-very much so.

]Here's what I'd like you do to. For a few moments relax every muscle in your body. Allow everything to sink into the chair where you are sitting. Release any tension, no matter how small. Then see if you can find the search.

Does the search exist as such when there is complete letting go?

There may be some phenomenon - some sense of movement or what may seem to be almost a compulsion. However, keep letting go completely. And as you are completely letting go can you say for sure that there is actually any movement or any compulsion? Can you say for sure that anything is happening?

In the relative stillness the actuality of what receives it all, which is it all, the essential stillness may appear to be more readily palpable. But then see if this which receives it all is ever not here.

Can any experience diminish or augment the stillness which receives it all? Is the stillness which receives it all separate from that which seems to come and go? Is there any boundary to be found at all?

Is there actually a search to be found? Is there a you to be found? Can either hold on to or let go of either?

Okay. lots of question there. That was a really helpful exercise. i have done it a couple of times. it seems the letting go could go on forever, there is always something arising to let go of. I did note that there is never any actual compulsion or any movement or for that matter anything that is actually happening. There was stillness of course which does receive or allow everything and i see that it is always there. I also see, but not super clearly that this stillness is not separate from anything that comes and goes; that there is no boundary.

I find no search in direct experience just sensations and thoughts. I still find something that i am calling me that i can't quite get to in direct experience. It is a cluster of sensations that i intellectually know isn't me but feels like me. it feels like the centre of experience, even the centre of the experience of stillness.

At first when I embarked on this years ago I did feel like it would make me a special someone, now I just want it to leave me alone sometimes. I also thought it would cure my illness and make me happy all the time but I see that those phenomena won’t change. Then I think what’s the point? And yet the seeking continues.

This is good. Can you say with all honesty that you truly have given up all hope in the search panning out as you'd hoped it might?

No there is still hope. Still expectation. The deeper i go into this the more expectation I find in fact.

OMG! Why can’t I get this? So frustrated. I can see that the harder I try the more frustrated I am and I know that stopping is the thing to do but…

On the one hand it is true that you cannot stop. So take a look and see how it is that you already are stillness. Stillness cannot stop because it is already still. Can you sense the stillness?
Relatively there is the appearance of movement. But when you look closely can you say for certain that anything is actually moving?

Yes I can sense the stillness, in fact i can always sense the stillness. it is always there under everything else. i see that nothing actually moves in direct experience. Everything is kind of "just there"

Do you have genuine doubt but what you exist? By now it is obvious that you cannot define what exists -= what you are. But can you actually seriously doubt but what you exist? What value is there in defining yourself? Isn't that the game you've played all your apparent life?

I do not doubt that I exist. And i see thought is playing a trick on itself by thinking i must be defined.

Thanks,
Angela

[joeylott]

I'm a bit stuck on how I can know myself as awareness without experiencing it. For someone who didn't think they had a lot of expectations I am unearthing quite a few!

Consider this. You have already stated that you exist. Does the existence that you are require anything to be? Do you need knowledge to exist?

If knowledge appears then that is fine, of course. There's no need to get rid of anything. But does anything actually need to be added to existence? And would anything that could be added actually define or be about existence? Would any of it alter existence?

I can't deny that it is a possibility. I see that the compulsion and seeking aren't mine and that the subsequent feeling of them being mine along with a thought are also not mine. This isn't fully clear but I can glimpse it. Even though that is the case there is a persistent feeling of me still here- in the body. I keep going back to it and on some level i can see it's an appearance but on another level it feels like me-very much so.

There's a category of experience that you define as "me". And you've defined "me" as bad while "awareness" is good. But on what basis do you make these determinations? What is your evidence that any of this is true? There is some experience. Period. What else can you say with certainty about it?

it seems the letting go could go on forever, there is always something arising to let go of.

That's right! There's apparently no end to the letting go.

I did note that there is never any actual compulsion or any movement or for that matter anything that is actually happening. There was stillness of course which does receive or allow everything and i see that it is always there. I also see, but not super clearly that this stillness is not separate from anything that comes and goes; that there is no boundary.

This is very clearly stated with the exception of the last bit which sounds almost as if you're trying to force something to fit into a concept - the whole "form is emptiness and emptiness is form" thing. It may be true. But don't force it. Clarity seems to become ever more clear. So trust in whatever is truly clear and utterly simple and still in this moment - no matter how seemingly insignificant. That is how clarity reveals itself.

I find no search in direct experience just sensations and thoughts. I still find something that i am calling me that i can't quite get to in direct experience. It is a cluster of sensations that i intellectually know isn't me but feels like me. it feels like the centre of experience, even the centre of the experience of stillness.

There seems to be a center. So let's explore that. Close your eyes and get as strong of a sense of the center as you can. Now, if this is the center, you should be should be able to find that there are other things happening around this center in space. So see if it is possible in direct experience to locate other things relative to this center in space. Tell me what you find.

No there is still hope. Still expectation. The deeper i go into this the more expectation I find in fact.

Good. This is good to see. Once it is out in the open, you can see it for what it is. What do you find when you look at these expectations, the hope, etc.?

I do not doubt that I exist. And i see thought is playing a trick on itself by thinking i must be defined.

I'm going to be a stickler on this. Sorry. Can thought play a trick on itself? Is there anything there?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

Hi Joey:

Consider this. You have already stated that you exist. Does the existence that you are require anything to be? Do you need knowledge to exist?

If knowledge appears then that is fine, of course. There's no need to get rid of anything. But does anything actually need to be added to existence? And would anything that could be added actually define or be about existence? Would any of it alter existence?

I see that existence cannot be altered or even touched by experiences even though all experience is inseparable from it. I also see that nothing needs to be or even could be added to it.

This is very clearly stated with the exception of the last bit which sounds almost as if you're trying to force something to fit into a concept - the whole "form is emptiness and emptiness is form" thing. It may be true. But don't force it. Clarity seems to become ever more clear. So trust in whatever is truly clear and utterly simple and still in this moment - no matter how seemingly insignificant. That is how clarity reveals itself.

I have taken this advice to heart. I am staying with what is simple, with what it still and letting go of everything else.

There seems to be a center. So let's explore that. Close your eyes and get as strong of a sense of the center as you can. Now, if this is the center, you should be should be able to find that there are other things happening around this center in space. So see if it is possible in direct experience to locate other things relative to this center in space. Tell me what you find

This was an interesting exercise. At first I kept thinking that "I" must be at the centre because all of experience comes to me through the senses. At that point I realized I was exploring with thought and not with direct experience. In direct experience there is no centre although thought still arises that says the bodily sensations are at the centre.

Good. This is good to see. Once it is out in the open, you can see it for what it is. What do you find when you look at these expectations, the hope, etc.?

When I look closely I just see a thought attached to a sensation and then a big ME thought which wraps itself around both of those

I'm going to be a stickler on this. Sorry. Can thought play a trick on itself? Is there anything there?

I almost didn't write that because I knew it would inspire a question. No, thought cannot play a trick on itself. A thought never knows any other phenomenon, not even another thought.

[/quote]

There's a category of experience that you define as "me". And you've defined "me" as bad while "awareness" is good. But on what basis do you make these determinations? What is your evidence that any of this is true? There is some experience. Period. What else can you say with certainty about it?

Good point. It's all just one big label making machine. Just happening.

Maybe you could help me with one thing. I have been feeling physically ill again (a long standing chronic condition) and i notice that this spurs a lot of seeking activity- seeking for a cure through whatever means (not just spiritual but also a hope that "enlightenment" will bring an end to the physical suffering). I feel like the seeking activity moves from this (seeking a cure) to seeking enlightenment. I;m a bit confused because with seeking enlightenment i understand the letting go but in seeking health it seems like letting go would be counterproductive (if i do nothing i won't get better)

Thanks so much,
Angela

[Angela12]

Hi Joey:

one more thing... i have noticed that i am doing a lot of comparing of my experience. I'm comparing it to some expectation i have of no self. I probably don't need to do anything about this but i want to be completely honest about my experience.

[joeylott]

When I look closely I just see a thought attached to a sensation and then a big ME thought which wraps itself around both of those

Look at this again. Please answer honestly, not just what you think I want you to say. Is there actually any thought attached to sensation? Can any thought actually wrap around anything?

Maybe you could help me with one thing. I have been feeling physically ill again (a long standing chronic condition) and i notice that this spurs a lot of seeking activity- seeking for a cure through whatever means (not just spiritual but also a hope that "enlightenment" will bring an end to the physical suffering). I feel like the seeking activity moves from this (seeking a cure) to seeking enlightenment. I;m a bit confused because with seeking enlightenment i understand the letting go but in seeking health it seems like letting go would be counterproductive (if i do nothing i won't get better)

Normally LU discourages guides sharing too much biographical stuff. But this seems very relevant to me, and so I will share with you that I had a long run of chronic illnesses, at several points getting extremely sick. So I can relate to your question/concern. So now let me ask you a few questions in order to explore this experience more closely.

You say that in letting go with regard to health then you will do nothing and therefore won't get better. Also, do you get to choose what happens? Can you say for certain that you have chosen anything? Has there ever been a chooser? Would the absence of a chooser necessitate nothing happening? Do you make the world go round?

Also, notice what is the apparent effect of the seeking engagement energy? Is it apparently conducive to health?

Also, this matter gets to the heart of things as far as I am concerned. The hope that enlightenment might provide a cure for illness demonstrates that the seeking for enlightenment is really a thinly veiled attempt to escape the fear of destruction. This is very good to see. Because then, finally, you can see the mechanics of suffering.

So there is something here that you want to avoid, and you turn to the search for enlightenment as a way to attempt to escape. But it won't work. It will never work. So can you instead simply give up and meet what is here? Let go of the defenses. Let go of the tension and physical armoring.

Is there any separation between you and what you most want to avoid? Is what you most want to avoid actually avoidable? Is it ever not here?

one more thing... i have noticed that i am doing a lot of comparing of my experience. I'm comparing it to some expectation i have of no self. I probably don't need to do anything about this but i want to be completely honest about my experience.

This is normal. See if it is possible to let go and allow the discomfort of what is here without touching any comparison or attempt to control or understand.

Sincerely,
Joey