would really appreciate a guide

[sikarasearth]

There is no "I", there is just a bunch of experiences, thoughts/feelings and sensations

Is it ever any other way, really? Has there ever been an 'I" in reality?

It doesn't seem as there has been, but i still feel as if there is a me.

I thought, seeing as the intellect can, say, for example, calculate, then when it calculates 1 + 1 = 2, this is a knowable fact. Or it might process information and come to a conclusion, such as "that bird is black and white in color" and this is a fact also.

Ok, so the intellect comes to conclusions but what can it actually KNOW, without observation/experience? Are even the 'black', 'white' and 'bird' anything more than words, labels inserted on top of the actual experience?

The intellect doesn't know anything unless experiencing it directly. But then again, black, white and bird ARE mere labels, the experience is the only truth. The experience of looking at a bird would be "looking, and perhaps hearing and touching. That is all a bird is, teehee, just a pile of experiences. That's all anything is.

Pressure of my butt on my bed.
Breeze from fan on skin.
Pushing of keys on keyboard.
pressure of pillow that hold keyboard on legs.
tightness of solar plexus/chest due to a little anxiety.
taste of garlic in mouth
seeing what is written/graphics on computer, seeing dog and cat on bed, other stuff in my room.
hearing fan going around, wind outside.
warmth from heat on skin.
vibration/tingling in feet.

Loved your description of being in the room. Nice and immediate! Now try going through that whole list of sensations, and add in words like 'my' and 'I' to each sensation (just the first description has that at present). See how that feels. Then take all the possession and 'I'-ness back out of the descriptions. Any difference in how it feels? Does the 'me'-ness add anything?

When i add in "i", "me", "my" etc a sense of me comes back in. When I take me out, there is no sense of "I".

Again, with your description of conscious awareness (a courageous attempt in words, thanks!), what happens when you try to take all the labels and all the 'me' out of those mental commentaries on the experiences? Just try it. What feelings and sensations are left? (I am expecting quite an odd-sounding description here, as every word we use is some sort of groping label, isn't it!).

I'm agonizing over this one Hahaha - a sense of frustration at trying to describe stuff..........Ok....
seeing, smelling (ocean), joy, anger, eyes watering, concern, love, gratitude, tasting (salty air), pressure (of feet on sand) cold (wind on skin) fear (of people passing by in night). Once again a bunch of experiences.

Just one thing on question 3, about the experiences not being remote. When you say:

The actual experience is happening inside me, it's not out there at all

- I would like you to look at that 'inside me' part. Does it feel 'inside' something? Or just 'here' rather than 'over there'? Stay with it for a bit: which feels right? If it feels 'inside' something, what is that something? What is that 'me' that it feels inside? Try to describe.

Its here. I dont exactly know where here is! I try to look but cannot find it. Its definitely not over there.

A) Get up and walk some steps slowly. Notice, who got up and walked the few steps. Is there a controller who controls the getting up and the walking? Or is there just the getting up and the walking? Consider this deeply. Let me know what comes up.

I got up and down quite a bit. It seems that my body is on automatic. oh dear, I feel like a robot

B) Choose a drink eg tea/coffee/another drink or between a couple of objects eg blue pen/black pen/pencil. Then sit and see if you can find 'the self' who made that choice? If so, where exactly did that choice happen? Can you find a choicepoint (ie the location of choosing)? Try to describe the process of 'choosing'. Let me know what you find.

I could find absolutely no self that made a choice. No choosing point. If I try to describe the process of choosing, I would say: " The brain, which seems to have a life of it's own, made my arm reach out and choose something".

Thankyou

Lyn

[sikarasearth]

There is no "I", there is just a bunch of experiences, thoughts/feelings and sensations

Is it ever any other way, really? Has there ever been an 'I" in reality?

Yes, it seems as if there really is no "I", however, I still sense an "I" floating around, regardless.

I thought, seeing as the intellect can, say, for example, calculate, then when it calculates 1 + 1 = 2, this is a knowable fact. Or it might process information and come to a conclusion, such as "that bird is black and white in color" and this is a fact also.

Ok, so the intellect comes to conclusions but what can it actually KNOW, without observation/experience? Are even the 'black', 'white' and 'bird' anything more than words, labels inserted on top of the actual experience?

Yes, the intellect can only come up with a bunch of labels, which is not the actual truth. The truth is in the experiences. And yes black white and bird ARE only labels again. To truly experience this bird, there would be looking, and perhaps touching and hearing (bird tweet), love/joy etc. Sometimes it seems there is no actual bird, actually it would seem there is nothing out there lol. Just a heap of experiences. But then I look and see there is something out there. what a paradox.

Pressure of my butt on my bed.
Breeze from fan on skin.
Pushing of keys on keyboard.
pressure of pillow that hold keyboard on legs.
tightness of solar plexus/chest due to a little anxiety.
taste of garlic in mouth
seeing what is written/graphics on computer, seeing dog and cat on bed, other stuff in my room.
hearing fan going around, wind outside.
warmth from heat on skin.
vibration/tingling in feet.

Loved your description of being in the room. Nice and immediate! Now try going through that whole list of sensations, and add in words like 'my' and 'I' to each sensation (just the first description has that at present). See how that feels. Then take all the possession and 'I'-ness back out of the descriptions. Any difference in how it feels? Does the 'me'-ness add anything?

When there is no "I" in the sentences, it feel like there is no me, but when I add it back in, there I am again! But how can I appear and disappear? There is always life. That's what it is, life acting like Lyn looking out from my eyes.

Again, with your description of conscious awareness (a courageous attempt in words, thanks!), what happens when you try to take all the labels and all the 'me' out of those mental commentaries on the experiences? Just try it. What feelings and sensations are left? (I am expecting quite an odd-sounding description here, as every word we use is some sort of groping label, isn't it!).

looking, breathing, pressure on feet (from walking) smelling (salty air) joy, anger, love,cool wind on skin, concern, jolting of legs from concrete path, fear (people walking by in the dark) wet on feet and legs, hearing.

Just one thing on question 3, about the experiences not being remote. When you say:

The actual experience is happening inside me, it's not out there at all

- I would like you to look at that 'inside me' part. Does it feel 'inside' something? Or just 'here' rather than 'over there'? Stay with it for a bit: which feels right? If it feels 'inside' something, what is that something? What is that 'me' that it feels inside? Try to describe.

The experience is here, not over there. But where exactly is here? I don't know, I cannot pinpoint it exactly. There is no actual place I could point to and say "here is where the experience is happening".

Now another experiment for you. Let's see if we can find any 'me' directing this so-called 'Lyn' life:

A) Get up and walk some steps slowly. Notice, who got up and walked the few steps. Is there a controller who controls the getting up and the walking? Or is there just the getting up and the walking? Consider this deeply. Let me know what comes up.

I got up and down numerous times. I was not controlling my steps. There was no one inside yelling "take a step with your right leg, now your left leg etc" ha ha There was no "me" making me get up and down, take steps, stop and turn around. The body just did it. No, the brain just did it I think. Oh god am i just a robot?

B) Choose a drink eg tea/coffee/another drink or between a couple of objects eg blue pen/black pen/pencil. Then sit and see if you can find 'the self' who made that choice? If so, where exactly did that choice happen? Can you find a choicepoint (ie the location of choosing)? Try to describe the process of 'choosing'. Let me know what you find.

No self made the choice, I actually think the brain did it, the brain seems to have a life of its own. I cannot pin point a choice point. The process of choosing: I look, brain thinks which object it would prefer,arm/ hand reaches toward that object. Hand picks it up.

Cheers
Lyn

[sikarasearth]

oh boy!! I thought i lost the first post, so I did it again, turns out i didnt.

[ElPortal]

Hi Lyn

Thanks for all that. Again, some good work and thanks for the groping expression of the conscious awareness. Unfortunately we have to work with squiggles and spaces (ie writing) to try to represent life and experience here!

Please will you do exercises A and B again, spending a little longer on the immediate sense of what seems to be going on. Don't just settle for a mental agreement like: 'ok, yeah, I could buy that. Nobody's doing this'. Stay with the sensations. Question the process. See if you can find any sense at all of a 'separate Lyn' (in A) doing it, (in B) choosing it, directing it. Play with some other choices. Can you separate out the choices from the surrounding environment/conditions/cultural conditions eg it's hot and some drink is needed, or the tapwater doesn't taste good, so another type of drink is chosen etc etc. Even look at how the dog seems to make choices if you like - is there anything there that you can say is not pre-programmed? Then compare with your own choices. I want you to tell me what FEELS REAL in this. (Please don't tell me you tasted the dog's food though.)

Then, once you have revisited those, please come back to what you wrote at the beginning of that last post:

Is it ever any other way, really? Has there ever been an 'I" in reality?

It doesn't seem as there has been, but i still feel as if there is a me.

...and then in your second version (which I have only just noticed! oops):

Yes, it seems as if there really is no "I", however, I still sense an "I" floating around, regardless.

Look hard to find that feeling of a me. Is it a feeling, or a sensing, or is it a thought? Which feels right? Stay with this one please, Lyn. This is your investigation, not mine or anyone else's. Let me know what comes up. If you have mental objections, please let me know what comes up there also. If feelings, please share those.

Cheers

Mark

[sikarasearth]

I am going to spend a good portion of time with this, so I wont post until tommorrow.

ciao

Lyn

[sikarasearth]

mark
im just letting you know that I am going to sit with this for another day. because something is blocking me from sensing who is in control, who makes the decisions etc. I have no idea what it is. For some reason, I cant concentrate on sensing, its like something is stopping me - i cant stay with the sensation of there being no i in control. Ill keep trying.

thanks

[ElPortal]

Hi Lyn

Thanks for keeping me updated.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

Hey there Lyn,

Wassup? You did agree to write each day, remember...

Earnestness = Ripeness -> Seeing.

If you can't get past the block, just write in with what is coming up, eg describe the block, if emotions are coming up or whatever is presenting.

Cheers

Mark

[sikarasearth]

hello!
sorry, i went camping and the cafe up there did not have internet.
Every time I go to sense and feel the I - ie: is there an I that makes decisions, walks, does things, I cannot stay with it long before my mind quickly jumps ahead to so called "pressing matters". My mind is annoying and an idiot, because nothing it thinks about is important. But it seems to take control. I did have some insights though, this is intuition, not thought, that my body is just on automatic pilot, programmed to be able to drive a car, do the dishes, walk around etc. This is a little scary, when you see it clearly. At those times I feel that my body is actually a programmed robot that is carrying around the life essence that I still feel is "me". A mere vehicle for experiences in this world. AAAAAHHHH
I will however, plough on and keep on trying to sense if there is an I or not. I will report back tommorrow.

Lyn

[sikarasearth]

From my experiments today, it seems that my body decides, moves, etc based on memories and stimulation from the environment. For example, why did I decide to go camping? Well, it was sunny, perfect weather for it, I read a story about a guy who went to the forest to find himself and then I decided, "ill go camping". No me made the decision, just a pack of outside influences did it. I'm programmed, which bothered me at first but now its fine, because when i become enlightened, Ill still be me anyway. I guess that doesn't make sense.
Another example is, with the exercise I had to do about getting up and walking, the post triggered me to get up and walk. There is no me that did it only outside influences again.

thx '

Lyn

[ElPortal]

HI there Lyn,

Thanks for your two responses. Some nice observations here. Now, please consider....

it seems that my body decides, moves, etc

1. Whose body? Touch your knee. Is that knee you? Or is it just a knee? Try the other knee if you like. Look out from those eyes. What bits of body can you see? Maybe a foot, maybe a glimpse of end of nose? Are those apparent body parts really 'you'? If so, how do you know? Is it a thought? What is the honest sensation? Is it of a 'Lyn' or is it anything other than just Life experienced at a location commonly referred to as Lyn.

I read a story about a guy who went to the forest to find himself

2. Ok, so a guy went into the forest to find himself: what is 'Lyn' likely to find in the forest? (this question is only half joking).

when i become enlightened, Ill still be me anyway

3. What we are looking at here, Lyn, is what already IS, not something which can apparently happen at a future moment. If something could be gained surely it could be lost again. What is there to become? Who is there to become enlightened? Is there a better state than what is happening RIGHT NOW in the present moment?

There is no me that did it only outside influences again.

4. Are there any outside influences? Are they different from 'inside' influences? Is there really anything other than what IS HAPPENING (or appears to be happening)?

When you consider the above, can you truly say that there is anything more than What IS appearing as what appears to be happening? Please tell me what comes up.

All the best

Mark

[sikarasearth]

Hi mark!

Now, please consider....

it seems that my body decides, moves, etc

1. Whose body? Touch your knee. Is that knee you? Or is it just a knee? Try the other knee if you like. Look out from those eyes. What bits of body can you see? Maybe a foot, maybe a glimpse of end of nose? Are those apparent body parts really 'you'? If so, how do you know? Is it a thought? What is the honest sensation? Is it of a 'Lyn' or is it anything other than just Life experienced at a location commonly referred to as Lyn.

My body is definitely not "me" . No part of it is me, not the eyes, the legs or the pinky toe - nothing. The body is just a vehicle for experiences. Mind you, i can say that, but i don't feel it.

I read a story about a guy who went to the forest to find himself

2. Ok, so a guy went into the forest to find himself: what is 'Lyn' likely to find in the forest? (this question is only half joking).

haha lyn will find nothing because there is no lyn to find anything.

when i become enlightened, Ill still be me anyway

3. What we are looking at here, Lyn, is what already IS, not something which can apparently happen at a future moment. If something could be gained surely it could be lost again. What is there to become? Who is there to become enlightened? Is there a better state than what is happening RIGHT NOW in the present moment?

There is no lyn to become enlightened. If there is no lyn and nothing to become , surely i am already enlightened ? It seems as if its already there but that i just don't see it yet. I wish there was a better state than what is in the present moment. Sometimes, when i sink into the moment, all i feel is anxiety sitting in my solar plexus region. (im using the word "I" for convenience sake). I wonder why.

I will tackle the other questions tomorrow as it is 10pm and i have just gotten back home from work and my brain is a mess.

thanks for your patience, sometimes i wonder whether i will get it at all, and get all anxious and embarrassed. I hope you're not wasting your time with me. I'm just being honest with my feelings

thank-you dear Mark

Lyn

[ElPortal]

Hi Lyn

Thanks for those answers and I look forward to the others tomorrow, whereupon I'll write more.

Your honesty is appreciated. No, you will never get it at all. IT getting 'you', however, now that's another question altogether! :-)

Cheers

Mark

[sikarasearth]

There is no me that did it only outside influences again.

4. Are there any outside influences? Are they different from 'inside' influences? Is there really anything other than what IS HAPPENING (or appears to be happening)?

I dont understand? As far as i know there are inside influences, such as thoughts, feelings etc and outside influences ie: the advert on tv make the body go to the fridge to get a snack. Is there really anything other than what is happening? I dont know if other things are happening whilst im observing what is happening, but i would have thought so. Im sure ive got it all wrong but im doing my best. :)

When you consider the above, can you truly say that there is anything more than What IS appearing as what appears to be happening? Please tell me what comes up.

im not sure i understand

cheers
lyn

[ElPortal]

Hi Lyn

Ok, thanks for all the answers.

Im sure ive got it all wrong but im doing my best. :)

Don't worry, there is no wrong or right: there is just what feels real over there right now! So full steam ahead. We will, however, examine and challenge assumptions, beliefs and acquired concepts, by looking at what is the actual immediate experience in this moment in each case.

My body is definitely not "me"

A. Ok so you see a body (or up to half of one anyway!) Legs, pinky toe etc. Where is me? Can you find me somewhere? Now, if yes, is that a real me, or the learned idea of a me? How do you know?

There is no lyn to become enlightened. If there is no lyn and nothing to become , surely i am already enlightened ?

B. Quite! Is there any enlightened and unenlightened, except in some people's minds (and in the rather lucrative spiritual industry!)? Is there anything other than what is happening, and what is not happening? If what is happening is 'anxiety sitting in my solar plexus region' (thanks for that frankness, by the way) then is that not what Life is doing at this moment? Can you just allow it to be there without resisting? Can you look at any labels or thoughts which come with that? Notice what they are, even write them down. Can you stay with the sensation, noticing it's quality shape and location, until this manifestation of Life moves on (and then the same again if it comes back later)? Please let me know what comes up when you do this.

It seems as if its already there but that i just don't see it yet

'
Deep down somewhere this is known, but the thinking, interpreting, believing and conditioning functions work night and day (well, day mostly) to cover it up, so that the senses become so dull that we stop listening to them properly, living via the concepts of things rather than experiencing them directly.

C. Lets look at 'inside' and 'outside' and 'influences', whether there are such distinctions really (from my 4th question before). Can you try to think of a decision you made in the last 24 hours, one which you made totally independent of anything 'outside'? Let me know if you can find one and describe how it was totally 'inside'. Now make a decision about something. Choose between two objects? Now write down any elements which may have influenced both decisions? What convincing evidence can you find of any 'me', as opposed to Life's flow, making the choice? Let me know what you come up with, then we can look at it.

I dont know if other things are happening whilst im observing what is happening, but i would have thought so.

D. Ok so in the here and now experience, how do you know that anything else is happening other than what apparently presents itself here and now? Yes, thoughts may tell you something, but what is actually known (as in: experienced)?

Just honest examination in each case, Lyn. Let's see what comes up.

Cheers

Mark