looking for a guide

[nenad]

Hi,

What do you mean when you say sentience? And what what do you mean when you say sentient being?


As for memories, you are not dragging them from anywhere, they just show up.

Take a look at this dream analogy that shows how time is contained in an instant:

In the opening instant of a dream you find yourself speeding along a highway towards the airport, because you're late for your holiday flight, because your wife couldn't find her passport.

Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult, and married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc, etc, and it contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.

Does memory mean that something happened in the past? Or is memory just a thought showing up right now?

[boris]

Hi Nenad

When i examine my experience, I discover it kind of does itself, with a very limited capacity to be directed in a willful way. There is a lack of control over what enters my mind but not a doubt that sense impressions, thoughts ideas etc enter. That they enter and are known to the degree; there is awareness, then that is sentience - the capacity to feel, register thoughts etc. The degree of registering differs from being dimly aware to acute self consciousness, meaning a particularly sharp, often painful registering of experience. There is not a 'Being' separate from sentience, registering, recognising, but there is this center of sentience, of conciousness, here, this sentient being that I refer to as me. What this refers to is the endless stream of sense experiences etc, that register as a happening, and as happening to this being here, you could say this sentient being is just those felt happenings.

Your 2nd question - memory as experienced is thought/image showing up right now, thrown into awareness from whence I have no idea - from unconciousness to conciousness, pick your paradigm. Memory does imply something happened in the past but doesnt prove it , as for one thing memory can be wrong - it seems constructed afresh and instantly in the moment.

All best Boris

[nenad]

Hi Boris,

When i examine my experience, I discover it kind of does itself, with a very limited capacity to be directed in a willful way.

There is no capacity at all to be directed in a willful way.

There is a lack of control over what enters my mind but not a doubt that sense impressions, thoughts ideas etc enter.

There is no control, good.
Only thought says that sense impressions and ideas enter your mind. In direct experience, you find sense impressions, ideas, thoughts and thoughts which say that sense impressions, ideas and thoughts enter mind. But, in direct experience, you don't see them entering from anywhere. They are just here.

That they enter and are known to the degree; there is awareness, then that is sentience - the capacity to feel, register thoughts etc.

Thoughts aren't registered. That would imply that they pre-exist somewhere, waiting to be registered by sentience. That is just a story. In direct experience, there are only thoughts that you are aware of. There are no thoughts waiting out there to be registered by you.

There is not a 'Being' separate from sentience, registering, recognising, but there is this center of sentience, of conciousness, here, this sentient being that I refer to as me.

Where exactly is this center of sentience? Can you pinpoint it?

What this refers to is the endless stream of sense experiences etc, that register as a happening, and as happening to this being here, you could say this sentient being is just those felt happenings.

Yes, sentience = these happenings that you are aware of. In other words, you are nothing other than what you are aware of. So, can you suffer? When you are aware of pain, you are nothing other than pain itself (not just pain, of course, everything you are aware of). Can the pain suffer?

Your 2nd question - memory as experienced is thought/image showing up right now,

Yes, exactly!

thrown into awareness from whence I have no idea -

It is not thrown into awareness from some other time. There is no actual time. Past is nothing other than those thoughts/images called past. There is nothing other than what you are aware of right now.

from unconciousness to conciousness, pick your paradigm.

Only thoughts say there is such thing as unconscious. It can't be found in direct experience.

Memory does imply something happened in the past but doesnt prove it , as for one thing memory can be wrong - it seems constructed afresh and instantly in the moment.

Yes, memory (thought) implies that there was past, but it can't prove it. Could there be a past, as anything other than thought? Can there be sound in past? Sight? Sensation? Smell? Taste?

[boris]

Hi

Center of sentience is broadly locatable to me, this person here, the sense that if I ceased to exist, there would be no awareness of beyond and within the boundary of skin that is me - experience arises from both sides of that divide.
I do not think that if something cannot be found in direct experience, it doesnt exist. I have never been to Iceland, I have only thoughts about Iceland - no "direct experience", but I dont doubt I could go to Iceland. Immediate sensory experience, sight, sensations are only experienced in the present - so yeah i can see that the past exists largely as thoughts/images. When I talk of 'registering thought' I just mean some thoughts are seen more clearly as being thinking, i am aware of having a thought or thinking about a certain theme, rather than being lost in thought, there is more aware thought - that says it better, more aware thought.

Best Boris

[nenad]

Hi

Center of sentience is broadly locatable to me, this person here, the sense that if I ceased to exist, there would be no awareness of beyond and within the boundary of skin that is me - experience arises from both sides of that divide.

Let's put aside what might happen some time in the future. Just look in what is right now. Where is this person right now? LOOK - can you find it apart from thought stories about past and future?

Immediate sensory experience, sight, sensations are only experienced in the present - so yeah i can see that the past exists largely as thoughts/images.

You say 'largely'. Is there some part of past that is not just thoughts/images?

When I talk of 'registering thought' I just mean some thoughts are seen more clearly as being thinking, i am aware of having a thought or thinking about a certain theme, rather than being lost in thought, there is more aware thought - that says it better, more aware thought.

But what can get lost in thoughts?

Best Nenad

[boris]

Hi

Apologies for the delay, I have been away. Looking at my greying hair, tells me there is a changing through time, implying a past. I know this is 'just a thought', but I am thinking, a true thought and my body holds a past whether I think /imagine that or not. It seems to me that some thoughts point to truth inspite of being just thoughts. When I look at the right now, I only find a vague self conciousness, a familiar feeling tone of being me, which i am aware would change in a flash if a burgler entered the room, so that sense is not an entity having any substance.

I like your question "what can get lost in thoughts", there is this experience of coming back to myself, meaning a kind of waking up from being lost, but there is only the lost dimly aware experience and the sharper sense of awareness in coming back, without a Being in the wings to come back to.

All best Boris

[nenad]

Hi

Looking at my greying hair, tells me there is a changing through time, implying a past.

Look at the hair: Is the color of the hair suugesting that the hair is greying? Or are memories of hair being different imlying that is greying?

I know this is 'just a thought', but I am thinking, a true thought

Are you thinking that? Or does the thought 'that is a true thought' just show up?

How would you know whether a thought is true or not? Do other thoughts tell you that?

and my body holds a past whether I think /imagine that or not.

How do you know that?

It seems to me that some thoughts point to truth inspite of being just thoughts.

Does it seem to you? Or does it just seem?
In other words, are you the author of the thought 'some thoughts point to truth inspite of being just thoughts.'?
If you aren't, then does it matter what does that thought say?

When I look at the right now, I only find a vague self conciousness, a familiar feeling tone of being me, which i am aware would change in a flash if a burgler entered the room, so that sense is not an entity having any substance.

Does this 'familiar feeling of being me' mean that you are a person? For example, if it feels like people are not being fair to you, does that mean that they really aren't fair to you? If it feels like it, does it mean that it is really so?

I like your question "what can get lost in thoughts", there is this experience of coming back to myself, meaning a kind of waking up from being lost,

It can feel that way. Are you ever lost, though? What are you?

[boris]

Hi Nenad - Needed a spot of time to take in your questions! But Firstly - yes it is the memory of hair being different that implies a greying through time. The thought "thats true" just shows up in thinking, there seems to be thought coupled with a feeling ;or sense of that thoughts truth or falsity and yes those thoughts showing up are the stuff of thinking, rather than a thinker behind it all. So yes I get your point , thoughts just seem - the seeming true is the thought without me authoring the thought, although it does matter what I think

I think of the body holding my past in the sense of my posture, the way i move, hold myself, being habits firmed up through time - you can see the emotions i have had etched into the lines on my face.

I also get that the sense of personhood - the vague sense of me, is just in a way a habit of identifying with a certain feeling that arises on occasion. There is a process of giving this "familiar sense of being me" more substance than it warrants - but a strongly held emotional belief nevertheless.

The last question is pointing to experience having more or less clarity of being cognised , recognised, like sometimes there is a senses of prescence and somtimes awareness is dull doesnt see whats happening clearly. I feel more "there" when present but all it means is that conciousness is a bit brighter and cognisant of whats happening.

Best Boris

[nenad]

Hi Boris. Sorry for the delay. I will reply tomorrow.

[nenad]

Appologies for the delay.

But Firstly - yes it is the memory of hair being different that implies a greying through time.

Yes, exactly. Is this memory anything more than a thought showing up right now?

The thought "thats true" just shows up in thinking,

Does the thought 'thats true' mean that it's really true?

there seems to be thought coupled with a feeling ;or sense of that thoughts truth or falsity

Does this feeling or sense mean that it's really true or false?

and yes those thoughts showing up are the stuff of thinking, rather than a thinker behind it all.

Exactly.

So yes I get your point , thoughts just seem - the seeming true is the thought without me authoring the thought, although it does matter what I think

If there is no personal you, then who/what does it matter to?

think of the body holding my past in the sense of my posture, the way i move, hold myself, being habits firmed up through time - you can see the emotions i have had etched into the lines on my face.

Do this posture, the way body moves, holds itself suggest something about past? Or do only thoughts suggest that this posture suggest something about past?

I also get that the sense of personhood - the vague sense of me, is just in a way a habit of identifying with a certain feeling that arises on occasion. There is a process of giving this "familiar sense of being me" more substance than it warrants - but a strongly held emotional belief nevertheless.

If there is no personal you, then who/what is this belief held by?

You didn't answer this question (or I've missed the answer):

Center of sentience is broadly locatable to me, this person here, the sense that if I ceased to exist, there would be no awareness of beyond and within the boundary of skin that is me - experience arises from both sides of that divide.

Let's put aside what might happen some time in the future. Just look in what is right now. Where is this person right now? LOOK - can you find it apart from thought stories about past and future?

[boris]

Hi have read but will take a day to reflect - but the first few questions seem simple enough so will answer now. memories by way of thought /image/body sense, can only show up right now. The thought that my thinking is true does not mean it is true. Neither is the body sense that something is true, guarantees truth - it is just what is felt to be truth in that moment, which may be updated as more information becomes available. Will tackle the later questions shortly.

Warm wishes Boris

[nenad]

I hope you enjoyed your weekend. Have you considered the rest of the questions?

[boris]

Hi Nenad

Struggling to find a reflective space, but have been thinking about memory and the thought is you cannot have my memories and I cant have yours - there is this being here who has these memories rather than your memories. They don't constelate randomly and give a zig zaggy sense of continuity, although sleeping is an interesting one in regard to a continuity of conciousness. More thoughts to come, but perhaps you can answer - who is it that has your memories?

Best

Boris

[boris]

Hi Nenad

Some furthur thoughts - memory is more than a thought about the past, sometimes comes as a feeling that when gone into leads to a clarity of thought ie - past memories, thoughts/feelings/images.

In regard to who does my thoughts matter to - that it is important what I hold to be true. Well there is clearly the mattering and the reflection is the more something seems to matter, the more the view is invested with a sense of self. Like suddenly I have something to defend, like something would be injured if challenged - which is clearly ridiculous, if there is only a vain sense of hurt without any 'thing' behind the hurt. But it does seem important what 'I' think - like its part of integrity, on a less egocentric level - like how I want to be in the world. This matters whether or not there is a firm me or not for it to matter to.

In regard to the posture question - yes it does arise as a thought that my posture denotes past habits or lines in my face past emotions. However the thought would not come without the history of my posture/facial lines etc.

Your penultimate question - there might be a familar sense of me that arises which firms up in the moment a strong belief in a existent Self - I guess you are pointing to a belief just arising with no one behind as a holder of that belief, there is just the belief, thats there for sure, but the possesor of the belief? And yet like memories, you cant have my beliefs, you may share some of them - but there are your and my separate beliefs, the beliefs can change so there is no fixity, but they do arise in some relation to a me - or be part of a me-ing process, to bring in some fluidity.

Your last question - apart from thoughts re: past/future in regard to which my life seems to be happening to, or life seems imaginatively constructed out of. Well they are often just stories hopes/fears, what is going to happen or has happened to this being here , drama's in the mind, missing the beat of life, or giving it a particular riff.Life happening, but not a someone to whom that life is happening to, inspite of all the stories But more deeply I keep coming back to that sense of Being or sentience which is so tied up with a sense of me being here - there is this awakeness. Best Boris

[nenad]

Hi Boris,

there is this being here who has these memories rather than your memories.

There is no being who has memories. There are just memories. Nothing and no one is having them.