Looking for some guidance

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark

So, this All, are you anything separate from It, from any of it?

Whatever you answer to the above, please tell me how it feels to see that.

I was looking at this question and the statement This is It. My girlfriend asked me the question, Well, what is This? On trying to describe what this was, somehow it was clear that This was indescribable. Thoughts are here but they can't even come close to what This is. There is no boundary or any separateness at all to This.
How does it feel? It doesn't feel anything except maybe a sense of aliveness. There is also a sense of not being tormented by thoughts or the thought of thoughts. Feelings or the feeling of feelings.
This what I have right now.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

So, is it time to stop holding 'yourself' in the position of a searcher, looking, and admit that you SEE!?
To drop the struggle with All that IS?

Cheers,

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark

OK

Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

So, Robert....

1. Is there a separate entity, 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I will write my answers for you tomorrow.
I would like your opinion on something, if you don't mind.
It has to do with the hockey commentary post and thoughts seeming to be lagging behind. Labeling and storifying. This would seem to indicate that the emotion occurs first then the thoughts. The thoughts then create the experience. All thoughts are generated by some sort of emotion. Whether subtle or intense. The emotion without the label or story, can be experienced as the one true energy. That Aliveness (Love). From that perspective, that would 'change' the emotion (or see it for what it really is) which in turn would 'change' the thoughts typically associated with an emotion. Which then in turn would automatically change ones experience.
I realize you are not here to teach but I really would value your perspective on these comments.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert

Looking forward to your answers to 1 - 3.

Your question seems to be about 'a better or different experience'. This we could look into (now or later), but actually, as I said near the beginning of this dialogue, Liberation is nothing to do with a better, or a different, experience. It's about the crumbling/collapse of/seeing through the illusion of 'anyone' who would own experiences, or who would have preferences about them. Hence my question early on about expectations and seeking the truth, which drew the answer that the truth is 'first and foremost'. Great!

This is from the FAQ in the LU home page:-

Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:


This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

If you want to leave aside the questions 1-3 for the moment, and look again at fears and expectations, we can do that. Just let me know.

Otherwise, I'll look forward to your answers.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Don't get me wrong it's not that anything takes priority or I don't want to answer the questions. I am just being as honest and truthful with what is here right now. After reading your non-answer I looked at again at my supposition and asked, Who wants to know? I do. Why? I need to know. Why? So I can properly function in life. So I can survive.

Then I looked at expectations and asked, how the heck do you drop all expectations. So I took it down to the very basics of existence. Food, clothing, shelter. The ability to survive. Surely we should expect that these very basic human needs should be met. Look at the swan with its long neck to reach down in the water for sustenance. Or all of nature for that matter. Are not the very basic needs of everything met so they exist, survive and even thrive. How much more so should it be with a human and its consciousness of itself?

Then I saw a 2 things. Nature does not 'expect' anything, it just lives. And that behind every expectation is the I and the fear that that expectation will not be met.
This is just an update and my preliminary response.
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark,

1. Is there a separate entity, 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No and No

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

This is just an idea that seems to start at a very early age. This primary thought is then continually cultivated, supported and added too by us and almost everyone and everything around us. It is just a habitual thought believed in. Our reference point to the world.

3. How does it feel to see this?

It feels fine. There is a definite lightness already occurring. The heavy burdens I was carrying are as fictitious as the I who was carrying them.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The major difference is the vantage point. I find it difficult to even read my early posts and as I write this there is a strange sense of compassion for that idea I used to be. Weird.
I am am no longer trapped in that idea trying desperately to get out, figure it out or work it out. Thoughts and emotions are no longer mine. Things that I used to have to deal with, let go of or work through. Habits of thoughts have still appeared, some with intense emotions but not near as intense or long lasting. They are what they are but there is no where for them to land. There is no Robert claiming ownership. All energies just passing through. Just the seeing of this is enough. There is no more wasted energy looking for something that is already always here.

Thanks for sticking with me and helping me see beyond some of my 'major mental constructs'. I have appreciated your patience and focus.
Thanks again.
The full ramifications of this have yet to be experienced.
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Nice. Thanks for those honest descriptions, especially in the 3rd question.

It is my privilege to accompany you in this journey to what already always IS!
Yes, those full ramifications are experienced in different ways and at different speeds by different (apparent) people. It can be like a rolling snowball, like a row of dominoes toppling over, a white-water raft ride, like a gentle breeze....

For the 2nd question, could you give just a little more on this from your present experience?

And here are the remaining questions:-

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please give at least a couple of examples from your experience, trying to describe how this all works.

6) Anything to add?

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Shall respond shortly
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
My answers are incomplete at this time
I will write them (however they are) tomorrow.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Don't worry, we are not looking for perfection here. Just your honest and spontaneous responses.
Words at best fumble, blurt and grope around what is sensed and what is felt!

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Here is a preliminary report.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This question. Pushed me over? It didn't seem like I was pushed over. Made me look? Along with the last 2 questions I have also been looking at 'This Is It'. So I looked at your last post (fear and expectations) and figured if something was amiss it would be in one of those two areas. Which has forced me to look, ruthlessly. This morning I had the impression to look at my very first post.

'I' feel 'I' have done everything 'I' can do and still living the truth of who 'I' am eludes 'me'. 'I' am so done. 'I' have more trouble now than 'I' have ever had and that's not easy to do. Where has all this gotten 'me.' Total destruction of mind body life. 'My' life isn't working and 'I' know less than when 'I' started.

Truer words have never been spoken!

As I sat looking at 'my circumstances', 'my life', 'my body', no self and everything is perfect just as it is, the thoughts came to me, a conversation in my head,
I thought 'God' was going to save you, bless you, have favor upon you?
Yea, I thought so too. Instead he has destroyed you.

Well, maybe so but what is the one thing that cannot be destroyed? What is aware of all this seeming chaos and destruction?
Then the thought, everything is still the same, if not 'worse'. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, no moves to make. There is Nothing left. No fear, no expectation, nothing. It is what it is.

Then the idea, This has been the perfect trap. It's like the 'I' has followed the bread crumbs to its own demise.
Surprise! You don't even exist.
Hands up with no hands.
Shall post again shortly.
Thanks
Robert

FYI

Many challenges (...which may well be here to accompany liberation/clear seeing).

So I'm just sitting here just looking at what is; 2 months behind on the mortgage, constant phone ringing in the background from bill collectors, seeing there is no self in all this and everything happening as it happens. And one of the calls mixed in there was from someone I have given money too over the last few years. He says to check with the bank, that as a sign his appreciation he has just deposited money directly into my account. (Coincidently just what was needed). Hmm, Life, Life-ing.

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Here is what I have

For the 2nd question, could you give just a little more on this from your present experience?

The illusion of the self is that there is something standing between what is happening this very moment. This illusion is the idea of 'me'. As an idea of me it can never truly be the experience of. It is thought or collection of thoughts that wholly resides in the realm of mind, labels, stories, not experience. Established at an early age awareness becomes misidentified with the 'thought of me'. These 'I' thoughts become solidified through the sense of a body. However when looked for in direct experience this 'me' 'I' 'separate self' is seen as just another thought.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

That there is Only the All. Everything IS. There is a thought about a 'I' but that is only a thought. But even that is part of everything that IS. There is thought, emotion, sensation but none of that constitutes a separate self. It All Is what it Is.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please give at least a couple of examples from your experience, trying to describe how this all works.

No. There is no separate entity to choose, decide or control. A belief in a separate self creates the illusion of choosing and deciding and controlling. There is no one to make anything happen. On one level there is nothing happening at all. In the realm of illusion the All is experiencing the expression of Itself. Life is happening. Growing, changing, evolving, expressing Itself. Whether I make a phone call or don't, wash the car or don't, do something or don't, it is all the expression of the ALL. There are thoughts, feelings, sensations, all appearing and disappearing which create the experience of Life. How do things happen? I don't know. They happen as they happen.

Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Well done! Thanks for those answers.

I will put your responses to other guides, who may have further questions. Once there are no more questions you will be invited to various forums where support is offered and shared experiences for those who have seen through the illusion of the self.

Cheers

Mark