I understand this, but let's look at an example. What do they say and what is the response? Are you responsible for the responses?It's not like these thoughts stopped, they still show up, it's just that somehow they don't stick anymore.
Looking for guidance - Thanks :)
Re: Looking for guidance - Thanks :)
That sounds pretty clear. :)
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diegoblues
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:12 am
Re: Looking for guidance - Thanks :)
I'm sorry again for taking a couple of days to answer.
The experience in the last days has been that the thoughts show up, and some say "I", "me", "mine" or other related concepts, however, they're followed by more thoughts, and then more thoughts. It's just thoughts after all.
There's no intervention, no possibility at all of intervention by an "I", because all "I" related activity is composed of thoughts, arriving late to what happened and trying to infer a sense of authorship or even of possibility of doing things in the future, but when all is said and done, the ramblings had no real causal relation to the actions and the things that happened, and even to the thoughts that came afterwards.
It's all happening, the body moves, the thoughts show up and disappear, new thoughts, new ideas, new trends, show up by themselves and leave by themselves. Pretty much like clouds actually, they float around, take different shapes, and these shapes can be influenced by external factors, but there's no "I" doing any sort of shaping, nor is the "I" capable of moving the cloud one inch further.
When I was a kid, there was a popular TV show here in my country, in which the opening was a huge Rube Goldberg machine unfolding itself and many unpredictable and creative ways. It was awesome. This sense of awesomeness is very present, just like the Rube Goldberg machine, it already went off long ago, so what I witness now is the unfolding of the mechanisms, traps and sequences.
The "I", and any sense of authorship, is made up only by thoughts, and no matter how often they show up and make connections to feelings and future actions, they can never change the design of the Rube Goldberg machine, so things will go on unfolding, regardless of it.
The experience in the last days has been that the thoughts show up, and some say "I", "me", "mine" or other related concepts, however, they're followed by more thoughts, and then more thoughts. It's just thoughts after all.
There's no intervention, no possibility at all of intervention by an "I", because all "I" related activity is composed of thoughts, arriving late to what happened and trying to infer a sense of authorship or even of possibility of doing things in the future, but when all is said and done, the ramblings had no real causal relation to the actions and the things that happened, and even to the thoughts that came afterwards.
It's all happening, the body moves, the thoughts show up and disappear, new thoughts, new ideas, new trends, show up by themselves and leave by themselves. Pretty much like clouds actually, they float around, take different shapes, and these shapes can be influenced by external factors, but there's no "I" doing any sort of shaping, nor is the "I" capable of moving the cloud one inch further.
When I was a kid, there was a popular TV show here in my country, in which the opening was a huge Rube Goldberg machine unfolding itself and many unpredictable and creative ways. It was awesome. This sense of awesomeness is very present, just like the Rube Goldberg machine, it already went off long ago, so what I witness now is the unfolding of the mechanisms, traps and sequences.
The "I", and any sense of authorship, is made up only by thoughts, and no matter how often they show up and make connections to feelings and future actions, they can never change the design of the Rube Goldberg machine, so things will go on unfolding, regardless of it.
Re: Looking for guidance - Thanks :)
That seems clear also. Any more questions? Any doubt? Anything else?
Are you ready to answer the final questions? Since there has been some delay between posts, I'll go ahead and list the questions here. Feel free to skip these and come back to them later if there's more you want to discuss!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?
I hope it has been wonderful and relaxing for you after all, Diego. Hugs!
Are you ready to answer the final questions? Since there has been some delay between posts, I'll go ahead and list the questions here. Feel free to skip these and come back to them later if there's more you want to discuss!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?
I hope it has been wonderful and relaxing for you after all, Diego. Hugs!
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diegoblues
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:12 am
Re: Looking for guidance - Thanks :)
I think that's ok for now. Things flow and if doubts or questions appear, I'll pop back here. Now it's probably time to chop some wood and carry some water :)
The answers:
1-) There's no separate self, me, I or anything at all, anywhere. And there never was. All that existed were thoughts, thoughts about a separate self, feelings, and more thoughts. But they were just thoughts though, as misleading as they seemed, there was no "I" to be found.
2-) I was thinking about it, when it started. Perhaps some time at childhood, I can't point correctly to it, but a rudimentary illusion of a self begins to be formed at childhood, then goes on being reinforced by parents, society, culture, religion. It's funny to look back at adolescence and all the fighting and rebelling for identity, for expression.
Looking back it was all a change in style and flavor, an "authentic" self is a false self nonetheless. Then years would come and thoughts would pile up and point to many elements that would make the self unique, special. Once I started to look for it, the thoughts tried to use scientific theories and even some spiritual concepts to protect the dying self, and they were skillful at that. But eventually it became clear, it was a matter of unlearning, of nothing taking the fundamentally flawed premisse of "there is an I", and as I worked to prove it, it lost ground.
The self was nowhere to be found. Even the trickiest thoughts, when I shed some light on them, were revealed as that: tricky thoughts. But thoughts nonetheless. Pointing to a character, a fiction theme.
3-) It feels calm, an unshakable feeling of calm and clarity. Also, a sense of connectedness to the whole of experience, and dettachment from the neurotic wheel of spinning thoughts.
Before I started, I had an intellectual idea that this would be it, I hoped for it, but being honest to myself I knew that I was still clinging to the existence of the "I". I tried to intellectually bargain a small spot for it to be hidden but still be there so I could enjoy all the "benefits" of the realization, however, it does not work this way.
The anxiety, the fear stemming from the sense of lacking control, lacking freewill is gone. Now I know that things will be happen, events will unfold, what needs to be taken care of will be taken care of, and life will lead me to places, events and people which I can't predict but will ultimately be they way things gonna be, and even though feelings may arise, and thoughts about these feelings may come up too, there's no "I" to influence anything, to control, to prevent, to alter the course.
4-) Ironically, was when I was having dinner with my mother and then we moved in a very mechanical and synchronized way, and suddenly it hit me, there's no way there could be an "I", this is all orchestrated and unfolding by itself. The body takes care of itself, does its own thing. The thoughts come later, and try to claim responsibility for the actions, but they're late to the show, and there's no way they or even an "I" could orchestrate such complexity for so long with so little effort.
5-) This was the hard thing perhaps to take, but no, I don't. Thoughts show up by themselves, choices happen, body moves and does its own thing. Even though thoughts may try to make it look like an "I" did X,Y or Z, under scrutiny it is false. When moving away from the boundaries of the I, it is even more clear that this is all one big ocean that simply is, flows, things happen.
It seemed very haunting at first, but when I looked back at all things that happened in the past, it became obvious. I had no say on all of that. It happened.
Now it is comforting. And there are many thoughts of curiosity and admiration, seeing life in wonder.
6-) I would like to thank you for your patience and your time. You were awesome, and there were moments where a lot of patience were required. I know how stubborn and narrow-focused I was at certain times. But looking back, it was necessary. The intense feelings, thinking about the worst-consequences, it took it all to get rid of the illusion.
It was great, and I feel there's a lot to change, new things to come, and perhaps in the future help other people.
These last days I felt a little awkard relating to people, both familiar and new, but I feel that it is going to be ok, it will settle. There are things to be reconsidered, to be seen in a different light, reinterpreted or newly interpreted. But I trust that it will work out fine, the way it should be.
Thanks again, I'll stick around! Hugs, and my best wishes! :)
The answers:
1-) There's no separate self, me, I or anything at all, anywhere. And there never was. All that existed were thoughts, thoughts about a separate self, feelings, and more thoughts. But they were just thoughts though, as misleading as they seemed, there was no "I" to be found.
2-) I was thinking about it, when it started. Perhaps some time at childhood, I can't point correctly to it, but a rudimentary illusion of a self begins to be formed at childhood, then goes on being reinforced by parents, society, culture, religion. It's funny to look back at adolescence and all the fighting and rebelling for identity, for expression.
Looking back it was all a change in style and flavor, an "authentic" self is a false self nonetheless. Then years would come and thoughts would pile up and point to many elements that would make the self unique, special. Once I started to look for it, the thoughts tried to use scientific theories and even some spiritual concepts to protect the dying self, and they were skillful at that. But eventually it became clear, it was a matter of unlearning, of nothing taking the fundamentally flawed premisse of "there is an I", and as I worked to prove it, it lost ground.
The self was nowhere to be found. Even the trickiest thoughts, when I shed some light on them, were revealed as that: tricky thoughts. But thoughts nonetheless. Pointing to a character, a fiction theme.
3-) It feels calm, an unshakable feeling of calm and clarity. Also, a sense of connectedness to the whole of experience, and dettachment from the neurotic wheel of spinning thoughts.
Before I started, I had an intellectual idea that this would be it, I hoped for it, but being honest to myself I knew that I was still clinging to the existence of the "I". I tried to intellectually bargain a small spot for it to be hidden but still be there so I could enjoy all the "benefits" of the realization, however, it does not work this way.
The anxiety, the fear stemming from the sense of lacking control, lacking freewill is gone. Now I know that things will be happen, events will unfold, what needs to be taken care of will be taken care of, and life will lead me to places, events and people which I can't predict but will ultimately be they way things gonna be, and even though feelings may arise, and thoughts about these feelings may come up too, there's no "I" to influence anything, to control, to prevent, to alter the course.
4-) Ironically, was when I was having dinner with my mother and then we moved in a very mechanical and synchronized way, and suddenly it hit me, there's no way there could be an "I", this is all orchestrated and unfolding by itself. The body takes care of itself, does its own thing. The thoughts come later, and try to claim responsibility for the actions, but they're late to the show, and there's no way they or even an "I" could orchestrate such complexity for so long with so little effort.
5-) This was the hard thing perhaps to take, but no, I don't. Thoughts show up by themselves, choices happen, body moves and does its own thing. Even though thoughts may try to make it look like an "I" did X,Y or Z, under scrutiny it is false. When moving away from the boundaries of the I, it is even more clear that this is all one big ocean that simply is, flows, things happen.
It seemed very haunting at first, but when I looked back at all things that happened in the past, it became obvious. I had no say on all of that. It happened.
Now it is comforting. And there are many thoughts of curiosity and admiration, seeing life in wonder.
6-) I would like to thank you for your patience and your time. You were awesome, and there were moments where a lot of patience were required. I know how stubborn and narrow-focused I was at certain times. But looking back, it was necessary. The intense feelings, thinking about the worst-consequences, it took it all to get rid of the illusion.
It was great, and I feel there's a lot to change, new things to come, and perhaps in the future help other people.
These last days I felt a little awkard relating to people, both familiar and new, but I feel that it is going to be ok, it will settle. There are things to be reconsidered, to be seen in a different light, reinterpreted or newly interpreted. But I trust that it will work out fine, the way it should be.
Thanks again, I'll stick around! Hugs, and my best wishes! :)
Re: Looking for guidance - Thanks :)
Much good insight here. Looks good! You should get access to the other forums in a day or two. You're also welcome to friend me on Facebook (Joy Stefano) and join our forums there. Hope to see you soon! And I hope your life situation is working out well. :) Much love,
D.
D.
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diegoblues
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:12 am
Re: Looking for guidance - Thanks :)
Thank you! I will you add you tomorrow, I look forward to stay around for a while.
Things will be ok, I'm already looking for a new job, opportunities are showing up and life will keep flowing :)
Thanks again for all your patience, attention and dedication!
Much love,
Diego
Things will be ok, I'm already looking for a new job, opportunities are showing up and life will keep flowing :)
Thanks again for all your patience, attention and dedication!
Much love,
Diego
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