Looking for some guidance

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Thank you for those
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Just wanted to let you know I have been (and will continue to be) earnest, diligent and exclusively focused on the task at hand. Shall post shortly.
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
These are some pretty powerful questions. Seems to be a lot there. I have been looking at these questions from morning to night and much has been addressed. Then when I can't quite answer your last question I will review the others and find something else needs to be looked at. Right now now I still have the sense of still 'preferring' certain things. I can't seem to go any faster than what has been happening, even though I would like too. But if g) is true then it's happening as it happens and there's not much I can do about that anyway, except look. I can answer the other questions but I don't know if it makes much sense to go any further until I can say Yes to question g) without any reservation. (I seem to be getting closer and closer to doing this). So I have been continually going back through the other questions to see what is left to uncover, looking at what's there and then seeing if I can get Yes for the last question.
That's where I'm at right now.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

I just got your two last responses.

Yes it looks like here is an opportunity for a 'game's up' situation: to drop any hunt for 'enlightenment' or 'realisation' in the often-referred-to sense and instead just come in with the hands up, allowing life to be as it is, admitting that there are not really even any hands to be up!!!

This is true peace: reconciliation with 'what is'. Dropping the struggle. Dissolution of any separate enterprise. This is where the rubber really hits the road.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Let's keep some dialogue going here... let me know how you are getting on OK?

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Ok good idea
Here is where I am at

Been going through the questions looking at different attachments.
Asking myself, How does that feel. So as not to go mental. Kept going to last question to get a Yes.
Allowing whatever comes up. Still seems to be some very 'soft' preferences, somewhere.

So looking at question g) I have the thought This is IT - right here right now ... and not that. That being every thing else. Thoughts, the mind, ideas, the story about Robert and everyone else, the story of life. That is that. That is all happening in mind.

So then I look at question g) and I get more like a Yea,I guess so. Ok I can acknowledge that. And then then thought but what do I do? Ok there is no I here that's just another thought. Doing, functioning, moving, sitting all day looking.

I can't just sit here all day every day. Even if it's just a story there is still the sense of being 'in the story'. This then seems to have preferences which then seem to want to change things. The funny thing though is here I sit 'doing nothing'.

So that's where I am at right now.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Many thanks for that update. Great! Here are a few comments, but stay with the a)-g) questions as you consider this feedback:-

You seem to be equating 'No I' with not doing anything. Saying something like "well if there is 'No I', there is no point in doing anything then". If nature did that the sun would not bother to come up each morning, the birds would stop singing etc. Do they? Is there an assumption here that without "I" death and darkness will ensue? Could it actually be the other way around: that apparent heaviness and darkness have arisen from the view of "I" as an independent agent? Could it be possible that without this 'I enterprise' what is left is just ... Life: celebration from morning until night, birds singing, sun rising, elbow hurting, tasty fruit, crappy news, smelly feet, shouting neighbours, fluffy kittens etc etc etc.

In an earlier post you wrote about a period of having 'some great success'. Are not both success and failure just things which appear... do their thing... and then disappear? If we believe that success, joy and peace 'are it', or a stamp of approval, then will not the the converse experiences be taken to be suffering, or a stamp of disapproval? What are these things really any more than passing phenomena plus our judgments and commentaries, Life doing its thing? So look at the ups and the downs. Are they it? Are they anything at all to go by? Are they to be taken personally?

Still seems to be some very 'soft' preferences, somewhere.

This is normal. A body has preferences eg to be warm rather than freezing. But whose preferences are these? Do they belong to Robert? Or is this just life happening?

So then I look at question g) and I get more like a Yea,I guess so. Ok I can acknowledge that. And then the thought but what do I do? Ok there is no I here that's just another thought.

Instead of asking, 'but what do I do?', how about doing the best you know how to do (or not), and asking 'who is really doing this?' Is the inclination to give up, the feeling of resignation, are these actually hiding behind the idea of 'no I'? (the 'I' thought can also get replaced by a 'No I' thought, which is every bit as conceptual and red-herring-ish.)

I can't just sit here all day every day. Even if it's just a story there is still the sense of being 'in the story'. This then seems to have preferences which then seem to want to change things. The funny thing though is here I sit 'doing nothing'.

Yes, the story is not wrong: it's just that it's just a story. The invitation is not to opt out of the story, but just to admit that it's only a story. The question is not so much about whether or not to change things, whether to sit there doing nothing or to get up and do something, but it's really about 'who is doing (or not doing) any of that'? Who is sitting here, 'doing nothing'? Who will be doing the doing if he gets up? The story continues, just like a game of Monopoly continues. But the question is, are you really that Boot, or Racing Car? Or ultimately just pretending for the game?

As you stay with a)-g) along with the above considerations, remember not to waste time down Mind Labyrinth (unless brain ache is sought!), but to stay with what is happening here and now. Keep in touch, letting me know what's coming up.


Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Here is where I am at
Looking at worst case scenarios I realized that they also carried with them the best case scenarios ( hopes goals dreams desires). Both happening as thoughts within the mind and accompanying emotions in the body.

When I first read your last post it was like a punch in the gut. I realized that was my greatest fear. Everything else seems to come after this. This is the true worst case scenario.
"This is it, there is no more than this. If this is all there is what's the point. No peace, no joy, just crappy news and fluffy cats and then you die. No meaning, no purpose, no support, no guidance, all alone, just me (who's not really me) with limited knowledge, limited abilities and limited capabilities in a dog eat dog world."

Seeing this had the feeling of indifference, who cares. There's nothing to believe in, nothing to hope for, nothing to expect. This seems to have been underlying our entire conversation. Standing in the way of the Truth. Life has always had an undercurrent of dread, so to say life is what it is and it's all about the experience, well that's not too appealing.


Then there seems to be some contradiction here.

This is true peace: reconciliation with 'what is'
and the 'meaningless of everything with joy' (taken from LU video)
And then ..... If we believe that success, joy and peace 'are it'

So, no peace, no joy just 'what is'
But is that Really True - what really 'is'

Illusion - incorrect idea, the act of deceiving
Lie - something that misleads or deceives

Robert is just a thought or collection of thoughts, so that makes him illusory not real
The story is just a thought or collection of thoughts, so that makes it illusory not real
The mind is just a collection of thoughts so that makes it illusory not real
Everything created, all life, was created by the mind so that makes it all illusory not real

It's ALL an illusion, it's ALL a lie.
So what's left?
I heard a saying - seeing an orange is not the same as the experience of eating an orange.
There is not one idea, thought or belief that can be greater than the Truth. But if it's just intellectual it's useless ( maybe not totally useless right now) but it's still just in the mind.

This really had my head spinning and I wasn't even going to post all this but maybe you can help. The more I read your post and look at my responses, my answers may not even be valid by tomorrow. But I'll post them anyway.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

As you stay with a)-g) along with the above considerations, remember not to waste time down Mind Labyrinth (unless brain ache is sought!), but to stay with what is happening here and now. Keep in touch, letting me know what's coming up.

Did you get a notebook?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Mark

ps 'illusion' comes from the latin 'in'+'ludere' = at+play.

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Just an update

Did you get a notebook?

Yes - Thank you

ps 'illusion' comes from the latin 'in'+'ludere' = at+play.

Sweet

f) So, who or what would be there to resist Life just happening as it happens?

A thought. A thought that has an emotion of fear with it. It seems that all thoughts that have any 'meaning' to them whether they are an attachment or an aversion have some degree of fear associated with them. I am in the process of scanning through whatever attachments and aversions are here and letting the looking do what it does. I am using your questions and the notebook to stay focused. Always coming back to question g).

That's were I am at right now.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Great to hear from you: thanks for the update.

Would you like to jot down one or two examples, each as it happens (you don't have to be too specific about the apparent event or thought which seems to spark it if you don't want to be) and then relay it here, once you have completed the a)-f) or a)-g) process, so that we can have a look together at what is happening? Don't forget to dwell on the question e) Who is attached to a certain outcome etc? Is this really any more than an energy? Don't pass over this once too quickly, or just add the label: "I is just a thought". Feel how the energy feels, and each time ask honestly: "ok does this energy constitute a Robert? How can it be known that this is anything more than an energy?"

As we both know, I am not here to teach you, but I would like to identify or suggest something this time for your consideration, as we continue our looking together. In a away this is kind of panning back from the immediate. Have a read and tell me whether any of this seems to fit:-

In a way the 'spiritual search', especially when it has been happening over an extended period, can have a lot in common with other addictive cycles. All attention is on the high (here maybe experienced as peace, joy, harmony etc), then the dreaded low comes and all that is wanted is another high. Behind this cycle is the hidden dynamo-like energy of a subtle 'belief in a self' (often appearing as fear, hope, and other emotions but with a subtle sense of 'I' smuggled into that thought/emotion/story), a 'self' who appears to benefit or get relief in the high - be it a high for minutes or for months or even years - then suffer in the low, feeling wretched, and then seeking the high again for relief. Of course in the 'spiritual seeking' circle it is particularly cunning (illusory) in that it often appears to have some divine stamp and there are often noble, peaceful, wise-looking teachers sitting by vases of flowers with soft voices, CLEARLY in a higher state(!) - and oh by the way you often have to pay - but sneaking in there the oh so subtle feeling that our mediocre lives are not yet quite there etc etc. Something needs to happen for us to arrive. We will need more hours of practice, attendance etc. True liberation is not in freedom from the 'low' but freedom from the notion of the whole 'high/low' cycle itself and to see the actual situation: that there is no person to benefit or to suffer, there is just the energy which has been labeled as such. Of course for the play (the hide-and-seek game) to continue the 'belief in a self' has lots of manifestations, including a sense of drama and suspense in the story, fear of nothingness etc.

Ok and thirdly, along with your looking at what is coming up, emotions etc a)-f, a)-g), something different to do. A change of scenery. Could you try to get out into nature, or as close as possible, with your notebook. Watch some of it, waving, wiggling, orderly, disorderly, alive, interacting etc. Jot down what you notice (noting any other senses as well as the seeing). Now, as you observe, where is the line between i) Robert, ii) the looking/experiencing and iii) what is being experienced? Spend time looking for it? Are any of those distinctions real? Play with this for a while. Is anything happening that should not be happening? As usual, spend time with all parts of the question, and note down what comes up from your present experience.


Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Here is what is was going to post last night
I felt I was at the point where ' enough was enough'
The feeling 'I don't care, I can't do this anymore'

"I am done my friend
There is nothing I can do
There is nothing left to look for
It is what it is, so be it"

As I was writing it I could add no despair, no resignation, no sarcasm, etc. to what I was writing.
Upon finishing it, I was like, thats pretty damn good if I just didn't feel despair, resignation and sarcasm. So I just allowed those feelings to be there.

So then I went to question g). "That all is just happening as it happens"
And The question then arose, What does that really even mean?
And that's where I went to bed.

I shall review your latest post and let you know what transpires.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Cool, Robert.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Ok I'm done
I obviously don't see what you see
Who knew I had so many issues
I have been going through every single thought as they appear, seeing there is no "I" to that thought and then sitting with the feeling generated by that thought until it is no longer there. This will take forever, maybe longer. Does this ever end? And to what end?
Sitting and going through thought after thought after thought after thought. Day after day after day after day. It's madness with no end in sight.
Now I have more things to look at, contemplate, think about and feel.
Is there clarity in seeing or not? You obviously see something I am not seeing.

Yes it looks like here is an opportunity for a 'game's up' situation: to drop any hunt for 'enlightenment' or 'realisation' in the often-referred-to sense and instead just come in with the hands up, allowing life to be as it is, admitting that there are not really even any hands to be up!!!

This is true peace: reconciliation with 'what is'. Dropping the struggle. Dissolution of any separate enterprise. This is where the rubber really hits the road.

How do I do, be, see, know, feel, sense, experience (whatever the right terminology is) this?

I have been as earnest, honest and as diligent as I could possibly be. I am not looking to hold onto any belief, idea or thought that would keep me from seeing the truth. There has not been anything more important.
If the 'I' ( the problem, the block, whatever) is so subtle that I cannot see it, then who can, is it there? Do I have to start looking for things I cannot see?

Hands up - ok no problem
Reconciliation with what is - ok no problem
Dropping the struggle - ok gladly no problem
Intellectually I have no problem with any of it.

I see there is no 'I', no Robert. I see these are just mental constructs, a collection of thoughts creating an identity that when looked for can not be found. I have the sense there is looking, there is doing, there are thoughts and there are feelings.

I have not been able to see - that it is all just happening as it happens. Not for not wanting, willing or trying to. This makes no sense.

So IT is predetermining the thoughts it thinks, which are in turn determining the actions it takes, or doesn't, which then determines the story it experiences. And IT could care less about the story. This just sounds like cruel and unusual punishment from something that could care less.

If there is no self then what am I? If there is only That I must be That because That is all there is. If That doesn't make things happen then how do things happen?

Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

OK so how about considering careully my last post and doing the things proposed there.

Cheers

Mark