Requesting a Guide

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Well you seem comfortable with where you are, or you might just be a little fatigued from the process. Besides, I'm not sure how many other ways I can creatively disguise the words, "just look." :) Many people describe "the shift" as more of an energetic change than an actual difference in the thought flow. Can you comment on that from your own experience?

Why don't you go ahead and take a look at the final questions. They are designed to help the guide see any remaining issues that may need to be addressed. If I see something that raises a red flag, we can talk about it. If not, I'll invite other guides in to make suggestions if they see fit. You've actually already answered the first one, but I'll ask you to answer it again within the body of the questions. Some guides may not be able to read the entire thread, so their suggestions may be based purely on your answers. Please number your answers. In question number 5, try to give some examples from your recent daily life. That seems to be the answer that brings the most debate among the guides, so feel free to give several examples.

Here are the final questions. Take your time.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own
experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Also, I think your at the point now where you'll appreciate this article by Scott Kiloby about this process. You may remember him from early on in the thread when I recommended some of his exercises to help with the fear. If the following link doesn't work, you can find it from the LU Homepage, "Articles", "After the Fall." http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... -Fall.html In the coming days, you may even want to follow some of the links within the article for more of his exercises. I find all of his stuff to be extremely helpful in sorting through the issues that seem to come up in the process.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,
In speaking to the "shift" that has been experienced since starting LU, there have been many energetic changes. Each time looking for the "self" and then really seeing there is no "self", there is a raising of energy as thoughts and beliefs are letting go. There is also much more enjoyment of present moments, pausing during the day to enjoy life without as much labeling and commentary. Labeling and commentary are not always gone but often it is more recognizable because there is more of a contrast when it comes up. Thought definitely comes but it is not as prevalent or as relentless. This journey has not been just one "shift" but more of a steady series of shifts along the way.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate "self" at all anywhere in any shape or form! There never was one except what thought and belief(thoughts repeated) would claim there was because the thoughts and beliefs collected from childhood that were never examined by really looking. Examining and looking never nets a separate 'self'...period.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It is almost as though there was one day or one experience as a small child when the separate self came in and the Unseparate Self went underground. I'm pretty sure this happened well before the age of 2, however, there is memory of the Unseparate Self. I knew I had to do everything I could to hide the unseparated self in order to be safe(at least that is the story that appears). Interestingly, the feeling sense of the Unseparate Self is still with me. As language is developed the separate self is strengthened and, for me(separate self) the mental language realm became the greatest protection growing up. And thus the cycle goes with language labeling and defining experience, quantifying and qualifying it all leading to more and more separation. But the Unseparate Self lying dormant underneath kept sneaking out to be felt from time to time. As awareness has increased over the years and with recent LU experiences, the felt sense of the Unseparate Self has increased.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Since starting this dialogue there is definitely a more solid feeling of energy and a more solid knowing present. I cannot say that it is a new feeling but just a more abiding feeling. Life seems more flowing with fewer sticking places. There are thoughts moving through but the thoughts more rarely stick and get repeated. It is definitely easier to be in public places and driving holds very little charge these days. There is also more enjoyment of the moment and not an urge to fill it with "something".

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I have to say I'm not sure there has been one "pushing over". It has come in a series of "ahas" from taking the opportunities to really look.


5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
Intention, decision, choice are all mental constructs created to communicate certain ideas and thoughts. There is no control of things in our lives. Experiences just happen without cause and effect. I go and pick up my granddaughter every day after school and take her home. Saying that is an intention or choice that "I" make each day is a way of expressing that this happens every day. It just happens. If something happens to delay my picking her up, it just happens. It all just is. Not sure how else to speak to this question except to say that our thoughts become our experiences. This can be misleading though because it causes one to try to change our thoughts...which we cannot.

6) Anything to add?
There seems to be a sticking point with question 5 still. There is knowing of the Unseparate Self that the Universe responds to vibration...not the "self" being able to do anything but "of the Self". When alignment happens though it is not "me" doing anything. However there is a deeper knowing of the alignment...a feeling of completion when things line up and definitely not "me" doing anything.

Jane

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Your answers look O.K. to me with the exception of a remaining control issue, and a few other minor things that surfaced. I suspected it was still there, and the questions brought it out.

Changing the subject for a moment. I feel a sense of reluctance on your part lately, like you are experiencing too much fear, or possibly frustration. This seems to be apparent since your trip to see your friend.

I want to look at that remaining control issue with you, but I don't want to push you if you feel you are not ready, or unable to go forward, or if your friend has changed your mind about this. I recall it was a friend of yours that recommended this to you.

Please advise.

[4connection]

Go ahead and push!

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

I'm glad you're O.K. with continuing a little longer. I've been somewhat time constrained today. I'm going to try to sit down for a little while tomorrow and write something.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Your answer to #6 was a little puzzling at first. I think what you mean though is that with each realization that comes with the looking, it feels like there is more alignment with reality as it actually is, rather than as thought says it is, and this just happens. There is no me "aligning" anything in the process. Other people sometimes describe this as "going with flow," although that still smacks of a me that could actually resist anything. Language is inherently divisive so expressing this stuff can be difficult. Correct me if I'm wrong on that interpretation. Your terminology "energy" and "universe" threw me off somewhat.

Alright, the rest of this post is going to be more teaching than pointing, but you're going to be looking at some subtle stuff. You mentioned something in #5 about "ideas becoming experience." #5 seems to trip up a lot of people in the very same way, because even though the "person" answering the question may see that there is no "I" that can "do" things, they still have a very subtle belief in cause and effect, or control, on some level. They say that they see things that need doing, and the things "just get done." They are partially correct, but they have the cart before the horse, or, the horse behind the cart, depending on your perspective.

You have seen now how sensations and "I" thoughts can arise. Fatigue and "I am tired" arise. Hunger and "I am hungry" arise. You have also seen how the labeling process goes hand in hand with the the "I" thoughts. The sight of a tree goes hand in hand with "I see a tree." A clear blue sky is seen and "it is a beautiful day" arises, a "me" having a judgement thought.

But what we sometimes don't look at closely is how ALL thoughts are mere reactions, or even simultaneous arisings to what is perceived as "out there." The thought may arise, "I need to clean up the yard today." The yard may indeed get cleaned up or not. If it does, it reenforces that belief in a "doer" of deeds and a "thinker" of thoughts. But what in fact happened? Something perceived "out there," and labeled as "a cluttered yard," triggered a thought, "I need to clean up the yard." Action occurred or didn't. That's it. The fact that the yard was going to be cleaned or not cleaned existed before the thought even arrived, or, at worst, simultaneously. There was no independent "me" that generated an original idea and action followed. Sensation-this time of something "external"-and thought arose. End of story. The perception of the "cluttered yard" is no different than the perception of the sensation labeled "hunger." Action may or may not follow either, completely independent of thought.

Let's look at a more abstract example. "I have to go to the bank." What actually happened? Something in the "environment" was seen, perhaps a checkbook lying around, perhaps something as simple as an unpaid bill on the table, or maybe just a glance at where the unpaid bills usually are kept, and a mental image may have come up of the bank, and thought said "I need to go." The bank may or may not be gone to. But the fact of whether the bank would be gone to or not existed before the thought arrived. There was no talking head "deciding" or "doing" anything original. The "me" is always after reality, not before it. Action may seem to follow a "decision" but thought decided nothing.

Let's look at another example. The sound "Jane" is heard, and the body turns. Did the thought come up "I need to turn." Probably not. Maybe so. But the action was completely independent of the existence of thought or not. And it really wasn't an action. It was a reaction. It just happened in response to sound.

Maybe "you decide" to call an old friend. Look around. Is there a picture nearby, a momento on a desk, or even something on an advertisement you just rode by?

Remember the analogy of the commentators at the football game. Do they decide and influence the game, or are they just reporting after the fact?

This exercise may be a little scary for you, but I want you to change the focus of the previous exercise I gave you. When you see the trigger(the ring or rubber band) in the visual field, I want you look at the last thought "you" had, and find the trigger "out there." Look and see how all of this thought residue is just reactionary, and that there is absolutely no independent me "coming up with ideas", or, "making decisions" or exercising any "control" over anything. You may not be able to see the source of all thoughts, but keep looking and you'll see some. And it is perfectly O.K. that this belief of control seems to persist, but it must be seen as a BELIEF, and a very subtle sense of "me." The me arises "internally" or "externally", but not independently.

Also, notice how many times thoughts of taking action arise when the body is already in motion to take that action. I notice sometimes that the body seems to already be moving when the thought "I'm hungry. I will get something to eat" arises. Notice how EVERY thought is a reaction. This is very subtle stuff here, so take whatever time you need with this one because there may seem to be some resistance to it. Keep in mind that nothing seen above will harm or denigrate the pure sense of beingness. It frees it if anything. You don't have to write every day now. Take your time with this one, and write when this is seen and felt. Remember, the scary feelings always seem to give rise to the freedom and peace in this.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,

Something just happened that I wanted to share because it relates to our discussion. It is about what I have called lovingly my "shopping karma".
I went online today to buy facial moisturizer, my usual, which was getting quite expensive and has not felt right for awhile. I put things in my cart but at the last minute canceled the order and headed out to Whole Foods with the thought of checking out their moisturizers as I picked up other things. Sure enough there was a kiosk with a brand I have liked for other things giving samples to try...all on sale. This sort of thing happens all the time and I realize there is no "me" in it but the experiences just happen...very much like "this doesn't feel right"..."this does".
There is a feeling of joy when it does..like things aligning. I cannot find a "me" in this...just a flow that happens. Decisions make themselves not "me" making any decisions.

What's your take on this? It is what I was trying to explain in #6 above. I have not digested the rest of your post yet and will continue to be with that for a bit as you suggest but just thought this was a perfect example to clarify. This sort of thing happens all the time!

Jane

[4connection]

Ok. I got something in rereading this, this morning. The first "look at Whole Foods" was not a thought but an impulse. The thought was the reaction. Yes, I see that now... That's is why the alignment feels so strong...it's a given before even having the thought.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Yes. What you call an impulse is the perceived experience actually happening. The "you" that seems to feel the impulse is already in motion towards or in the experience. Thought just comments on the realization of the action.

And yes, what you speak of are coincidences and synchronicities coming and going. They seemed abundant when this was first seen. After a while it turned to sort of a quiet sense of constant amazement always in the background, even when the "stuff" of life is playing out on top of it. Occasionally, it seems to swell up and fill experience. Lots of "goose bumps" with that.

As to your second post, yes, that is what I'm pointing to. It does seem as if reality is "determined" on some unknown level, but it is not by the "thinking mind." That fictional entity is strictly limited to commentary only, for communicating with apparent others. And to even say that "reality is 'determined' on some level" is itself a subtle form of control and self, but I'm just saying that to distinguish the fact that the talking head does not decide or do anything.

Ironically, even the process of guiding tends to reenforce a belief in a separate self if you look at it. What is guiding here? What is being guided? Is it just guiding going on? Is this just how life manifests in the moment you are reading this? Look at that.

For the time being, just stay with the looking, with the "flow", and see the story acting itself out as it should, with no one even watching.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,
There is SO much more flow this week! Something has clicked in as though the cart and the horse are now in the right order. There is definitely a seeing that everything is a story acting itself out with no one even watching! Even with the "stuff of life" coming up on a huge level right now, there is that constant sense of amazement in the background as it all unfolds...and no one is even watching.

Jane

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Good. Stay with it. Keep noticing how there are really no "original" thoughts actually deciding or causing anything. Movement "to" and "away" from things perceived as "out there" just seems to happen. What about the first child in the video? Notice how he moves but there is no one deciding or saying what to do. Does he even have a belief that he is "in" a body? Could he have any belief in "control"? Look at the video again if you need to.

Also, there was one other thing I wanted you to look at from your recent answers. You seem to distinguish a separate self from an unseparate self. I understand what you are describing as the separate self, and, this may just be a language issue, but when you use the term "unseparate self", what are you describing?

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,

I used the term "Unseparate self" only as a distinction from the separate self even though there is no one there that is the "Unseparate self". It is difficult to describe the indescribable. It is a feeling of becoming the room where I sit and the room becoming me. It is the silence within. There is no space between and there is no one in the space. In the Direct Path he uses the term pure awareness which probably comes closest to the indescribable.

As far as the above questions, in observing thought there is no "original" thought causing or deciding anything...thought and decision just happen. There is nothing out there, it is all just moving through...just happening. No "one" in control or controlling anything. The child in the video has no awareness of a body or that he controls anything. It is the same as no separation between self and room...there is no awareness of a body separate from the environment.

With appreciation,
Jane

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

O.K. I'm going to take some time tonight and maybe tomorrow, browse back through the thread, and then probably invite some other guides to look at the thread and see if there's anything else they think we should look at.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

O.K. I posted a request for some other guides to come in and comment on your answers and so far no one has posted any questions, and several agree with me that you have seen through. I will leave the request open for the rest of the day in case any late-comers show up with questions. If they do I will post them, but if not then I'll come back here later in the day or tomorrow and post one last time, and tell you where we go from there. Sorry for the delay, but the guides frequently like to read these things and then mull it over for awhile, probably in this case especially so, since I am a new guide. I'll talk to you soon.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,
Thank you for taking the time with this process as it has been well worth the journey!

With gratitude,
Jane