Hoping to find a guide asap

[ENDY]

Hi Sage,

Are you sure this is how it unfolded? As you read the words was there no concept attached to them at all? No mental sounds attached to the words and letters? You may be correct, or it may be that the initial conceptualization was so subtle you didn't notice it. It's helpful to get a feel for these subtle levels of thinking. Try picking up a newspaper or magazine and flipping through it. Let your eyes rest on random words without the intent to read them. Watch to see what happens. Try to get familiar with this subtle flavour of thinking.

Yes, as best I can tell, it is how it unfolded. In fact, much of my daily experience occurs with no interpretation. Sometimes the mind wanders, sometimes it obsesses, but often it recedes into the background. Often times, no concept is attached. I don't look at a chair and see a "chair." I just see what is seen. Perhaps (for sure, more than perhaps) much subtlety is involved, but in doing this exercise it is mostly too discrete, other than the observation that it feels as if there is a split second choice. Not only a choice in this, but in so many other things. I even think that I CHOOSE to become nervous sometimes (maybe all the time). My eyes actually tend to not settle on any words. It is just ink. On paper. No actual meaning. And, I'm not just saying that.

Excellent. Do whatever it takes to recreate those conditions. Watch that process that you describe as choosing. Imagine that I have never heard of choice and you need to teach me how to make a decision.

I'm not quite sure how this observation of a subtle choosing has led to your question. But I can give it a go: Consider all factors. Weigh them. Decide which resolution/action/non-action/avenue/etc. you prefer. Elect that one.

Think about someone you love deeply. Think to yourself "I don't love them". Do you love them any less? If not, the thought didn't control the condition. So is it true that some thoughts control conditions and others don't? Or is there something else at play?

It's weird. Yes, I can eliminate the feeling of love. It's why I stop myself. I think I actually could brainwash myself, if I really tried.

Is it true that the thought forces or controls the action? How do you know? Describe to me how this happens, referring to direct experience. Be sure to include a description of what it is that the thought is acting upon to catalyze your action.

I think, "ok, I'm going to go into this meeting at work and I'm going to be honest, despite the fact that it puts me at a disadvantage. I think, integrity is the most important thing here. It trumps the other factors." Or some such. Then, I go into the meeting, and this gets played out. I'm honest, things don't really go my way, but I walk away satisfied, knowing that I have acted with integrity.

Thanks,
Endy

[csm]

Wow. We've got some serious work to do Endy. If you want to see this you're going to have to look much deeper. Your thoughts have you way off course right now. Today will be an experiment. I'll continue with some of the lines of inquiry that we've started and see how that goes. If there's a shift we may continue to follow these avenues for a bit. If not I'll suggest we drop all this for a while and go back to some exercises that will get you more familiar with direct experience.

I'm not quite sure how this observation of a subtle choosing has led to your question. But I can give it a go: Consider all factors. Weigh them. Decide which resolution/action/non-action/avenue/etc. you prefer. Elect that one.

Set out two object and choose one to pick up. Watch the process carefully. Watch throughout the day as choices are made.

There are three things here I'm going to ask you to look at whenever a decision occurs.

1) What, in detail, is this activity of electing, or choosing one option? Ignore the lead-up of deliberation. Ignore the subsequent action. What happens in that critical moment between those two things?

2) If the decision is based on preferences, where do the preferences come from? Did you decide at some point that you would thereafter dislike *X* and prefer *Y*? Or did a preference just develop beyond your control? If you choose your likes and dislikes, why not choose in every moment to like what is present? Broken arm? Like the pain. Obnoxious neighbour? Like their characteristics.

3) What is doing the choosing and preferring? Give me a clear description, from DE, of the preferrer and chooser. No theory, no conjecture. Just DE.

It's weird. Yes, I can eliminate the feeling of love. It's why I stop myself. I think I actually could brainwash myself, if I really tried.

It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the feeling can apparently dissolve while you look at it. That is natural. But you're suggesting that the love is actually eliminated. If that's the case you would need to remind yourself to start loving them again when the experiment is over. Does that seem right? You have to actively choose to love them again? Or does the feeling spontaneously return later when love-conducive conditions arise?

I think, "ok, I'm going to go into this meeting at work and I'm going to be honest, despite the fact that it puts me at a disadvantage. I think, integrity is the most important thing here. It trumps the other factors." Or some such. Then, I go into the meeting, and this gets played out. I'm honest, things don't really go my way, but I walk away satisfied, knowing that I have acted with integrity.

Prove to me that the thought caused the subsequent events, and that it's not just a correlative relationship. Let's look at this notion in another experiment.

Many times in a row set an intention to lift your right arm. Randomly lift it and not lift it. Set each intention earnestly and watch the way it sometimes gets followed and sometimes doesn't. What controls the outcome? Is a self required? Is there a self needed for intention to be set and arm to be lifted (or not)? Or do those things happen on their own?

Love,
Sage

[ENDY]

Hi Sage,

Set out two object and choose one to pick up. Watch the process carefully. Watch throughout the day as choices are made.

There are three things here I'm going to ask you to look at whenever a decision occurs.

1) What, in detail, is this activity of electing, or choosing one option? Ignore the lead-up of deliberation. Ignore the subsequent action. What happens in that critical moment between those two things?

2) If the decision is based on preferences, where do the preferences come from? Did you decide at some point that you would thereafter dislike *X* and prefer *Y*? Or did a preference just develop beyond your control? If you choose your likes and dislikes, why not choose in every moment to like what is present? Broken arm? Like the pain. Obnoxious neighbour? Like their characteristics.

3) What is doing the choosing and preferring? Give me a clear description, from DE, of the preferrer and chooser. No theory, no conjecture. Just DE.

1) I really have no idea. What happens? A thought occurs stating a preference. Sometimes no thought is necessary. I really don't see where there is room for detail in this. Details of what? Say I'm choosing between two shirts in the morning, I look at them both. The thought occurs, "I'll wear this one today, and this one I'll save for tomorrow because it's supposed to be colder outside tomorrow, and that one will be warmer." What happens in that critical moment when one shirt is chosen and another is saved for tomorrow? I don't know. Common sense is at play? What other details are we looking for? I look at both shirts. Thoughts spontaneously occur.

2) The preferences are formed over time, and remembered. Yes, sometimes preferences are decisions. I decide that because exercise is good for me, and that even though I actually don't prefer to spend my time doing it, I will do it anyway, and it becomes a priority. Sometimes they develop beyond my control, like taste in food, music, etc. Liking everything is impossible, even if we choose to do so. Pain is not fun (at least for me) so it is impossible to enjoy sticking my hand in a fire. However, if I realized that sticking my hand in the fire, even though painful, was good for me, I might decide to try to like it. Like exercise. And spinach.

3) Finally. The heart of the matter. What I'm here for. The bottom line. If I am seated in the chooser's seat, wouldn't it be impossible for me to see the chooser? In DE, there is no entity to be found that does the choosing. But if I'm the chooser, how would it be possible to find myself? A hand can't hold itself. The eyes can't see themselves. If I am I, how would I observe I? Wouldn't it be a wild goose chase, even if it does exist? I could exist and look everywhere and never see myself. Because any movement would be a movement away from myself.

It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the feeling can apparently dissolve while you look at it. That is natural. But you're suggesting that the love is actually eliminated. If that's the case you would need to remind yourself to start loving them again when the experiment is over. Does that seem right? You have to actively choose to love them again? Or does the feeling spontaneously return later when love-conducive conditions arise?

Love might spontaneously return when love-conducive conditions arise, but if I'm effective enough in my exercise, I bet I could really do it enough to stir up some serious inner confusion. I'm not just being flippant here, I really think it would be dangerous. I decide things all the time that dictate feelings. I decided today that I ought to be nicer to my boss because people are sensitive. This may evolve into an actual desire for a friendly-relationship. Which could become long term. All based on one decision. I could easily decide, nah, I am going to hold my ground, and things would play out much differently. Feelings are very much subject to x vs. y decisions in this noggin.

Prove to me that the thought caused the subsequent events, and that it's not just a correlative relationship. Let's look at this notion in another experiment.

Many times in a row set an intention to lift your right arm. Randomly lift it and not lift it. Set each intention earnestly and watch the way it sometimes gets followed and sometimes doesn't. What controls the outcome? Is a self required? Is there a self needed for intention to be set and arm to be lifted (or not)? Or do those things happen on their own?

I wouldn't know how to prove that the thought "caused" the subsequent events, but I can say for sure that they played a major role in how the events played out. Decisions, if acted upon, form indelible paths of activity.

What controls the outcome of lifting the arm? I don't know. Is a self required? I'm not sure. Through direct experience, I can say that there certainly feels like a self is involved. There's this taste of individuality, it sort of reminds me of my dad. A baseline sense of me-ness. Plus, you call it "your arm." To whom are you referring? I'm not just being coy. Really. Doesn't language offer a concession here? I can choose to lift this right arm, but I certainly can't choose to lift yours. Or anyone else's. So, whether we call it a self, or individuality, or no-self, it certainly seems like I am here in some shape or form. I'm willing to apply DE, but must we totally discard the obvious?

Thanks,
Endy

[ENDY]

I have been looking at this question all night: What is the Chooser? Can I find it in DE?

I am the chooser. And if I am the chooser, how would I find it in DE? Or non-DE? Or magic? Or alchemy? Or hallucinogens? Or anything else? Any object that I would see, BY DEFINITION, could not be me. I am seeing from the first-person perspective. A subjective vision. No matter how hard I look in direct experience, I will never find myself, because I am not an object.

There is this sense of self. Like the perfume of the individual. My signature essence. It "feels" like a feeling I associate with my dad. It feels real. But this is not me. Just the emanation of my essence, it seems.

[csm]

Hi Endy :)

must we totally discard the obvious?

Yes.

At least in the way that you mean. That first post was full of absolute garbage. Non-sensical, illogical bullshit conjecture that is just flat-out wrong, yet to you seems obvious.

That's very natural. Your ideas don't surprise me at all, and I understand where they come from. But they are trash, they are perpetuating the illusion, and if you truly want to see this you have to be willing to step back and loosen the grip on all those ideas.

We don't need to discard that which is obvious from DE, but it's clear to me now that you don't have a handle on what that means. A "taste of individuality... a baseline sense of me-ness" is not DE. Not even close.

A note on language. It's never right. Not remotely. I'm not actually acknowledging the absolute existence of an object in the universe "your arm". But language is a marvelous tool that can get a lot done if we let it, and here I will contort it in all kinds of ways in the hopes that it will help get this job done.

You seem rather afraid of brainwashing. If we proceed I'm going to expect you to be willing to look at things that cannot be verified by your thoughts. You will in fact have thoughts all along the way that argue the opposite of everything we look for. If you need the security of thought-based verification, if you trust your thoughts more than you trust the truth of your experience-prior-to-thought, then you are not ready for this process.

A note regarding your second post: It's fair to say that that which is looking cannot observe itself as an object. But that which is looking has none of the qualities you attribute to yourself. It does not choose, it has no preferences, it feels no pain, it has no body, it doesn't even perceive bodies like you do. At this stage in the process the thought "don't even bother looking" is a trick of your ego. It's a protection mechanism kicking in to keep you from seeing the truth. Let it go.

Now, if you're prepared to go forward, there are two exercises today.

One is this: Find an hour when you have no obligations. Set the timer for 60 minutes. Don't think until the timer goes off.

The other is this: Write me a detailed description of your day, referencing only the five senses. Keep interpretation to a minimum. Like this: "Colours and movement. A clanging sound. A sour smell. Aching. A firm localized pressure repeated a few times, a beeping sound. Small coloured lights in the dark. Coolness. A creaking sound, humming."

With love,
Sage

[ENDY]

I think you are scared of that the fact that why I'm saying might be true. I won't even quote your words, because at best they are childish. Perhaps this is why your response is so touchy: Something appears threatened. That thing, perhaps, is you. A you that was born and that will one day die.

"A "taste of individuality... a baseline sense of me-ness" is not DE. Not even close." If you were in my shoes you would see that, yes, in "DE" this is what is seen. Perhaps your need to cling to "no self" interferes with your ability to put yourself in my shoes.

Your exercises for today are a waste of time. I prefer the heart of the matter. If you would like to explore that with me, let's move forward. But, no, I'm not going to just rely on my senses for the truth.

You might also reconsider your perspective on language. It has done you no favors here. If your statement "with love, sage" is in any way accurate, your attitude and response leading up to this certainly belies it. You won't bully me into anything.

[csm]

Hi Endy,

There is love here. And right now what you’re getting is tough love.

I know why you think those qualities you described are evident in DE. I remember what that felt like. But my sensitivity to what I was actually experiencing deepened and I saw the truth.

I understand that you think you know how this is supposed to go. You had a tremendous realization, and you want to follow that familiar path. But you misunderstand “the heart of the matter”, and that’s why you haven’t been able to do this on your own.

I am here to help if you’re willing to let go of your expectations and really explore.

If you’re not ready yet, that’s fine too and I wish you well.

With love and compassion,
Sage

[ENDY]

Saying "with love" or "with love and compassion" counts for so much less and is so nowhere near as telling as the delivery preceding. Frankly, it is cheap.

There is love here. And right now what you’re getting is tough love.

I hope you are sincere. This comes across as a cop out.

Let's not waste our time with exercises tainted with sarcasm. Setting a timer, trying not to think for an hour? I'm not a moron. Thoughts can't be controlled. They occur inspite of our best efforts otherwise. Like so many other things that are beyond our control. The fact is, this doesn't prove anything. Just because thoughts are beyond our control doesn't mean that there is no self. There is a self, it just can't stop thoughts. Nor so many other things associated with the body/brain.

A detailed description of the day referencing the five senses? Sorry, it sounds like you are stalling.

I understand that you think you know how this is supposed to go. You had a tremendous realization, and you want to follow that familiar path. But you misunderstand “the heart of the matter”, and that’s why you haven’t been able to do this on your own.

I am here to help if you’re willing to let go of your expectations and really explore.

If you’re not ready yet, that’s fine too and I wish you well.

I have no idea how this is "supposed to go." I didn't even know that it should potentially "supposed to go" in any direction. The "tremendous realization" is in the past. I am over it, Sage. I don't even think I brought it up more than once or twice since the first message when it was provided for context. All I care about is right now. And, I don't care if the path is familiar or unfamiliar, so long as it is effective. In fact, I haven't even really been trying to "do this on my own." I've been all over, seeking out all sorts of "awakened beings" for direction, so often seeing "no self," and the realization fading, being overcome by doubt. Heck, I'd seek counsel from a spider if there was any indication it might have something to offer. And, it is why I am here. I am desperate for the truth. I am ready to let go of expectations and really explore. But so what if the self can't be seen from DE. The implications of this are very limited. How would I see I, even if it was real? I see FROM I, I is not an object, to me. You are an object to me. But you are not an object to you. If you want to get to the point, I'm here. I'm ready. But me posting about sensory experience, you getting back to me tomorrow--the pattern we have followed so far--is not getting us anywhere. I appreciate the fact that you are helping me with this. The fact that you do this is very generous. i don't want to waste your time. I am a hard case, for sure. Do you have it in you to get to heart of this with me? If not, no problem. If so, I am all ears.

[csm]

Hi Endy,

Do you have it in you to get to heart of this with me?

I do, and that’s all I’ve been doing. You think that a lot of these exercises are beside the point. They are not. They are directly relevant to the illusion.

I believe that you think you’re ready to drop expectations. But your posts have been chock full of them. Expectations about what “the heart of the matter” is, about what are the right kinds of questions, about the necessity of thought, about what love and compassion are supposed to look like. These expectations are obstacles to seeing the truth.

But, no, I'm not going to just rely on my senses for the truth.

If you rely on thought you won’t find the truth. It’s that simple.

Please take the afternoon to really consider this, ideally by checking in with your body and not just your thoughts. If you decide you want to move forward, please spend tomorrow doing the exercise about sensations.

Love,
Sage

[ENDY]

The other is this: Write me a detailed description of your day, referencing only the five senses. Keep interpretation to a minimum. Like this: "Colours and movement. A clanging sound. A sour smell. Aching. A firm localized pressure repeated a few times, a beeping sound. Small coloured lights in the dark. Coolness. A creaking sound, humming."

A detailed description of the day would fill 1000 pages. Perhaps a detailed description of five to ten minutes? Do I write during the observation or from memory?

Thanks.

[csm]

Excellent. I'm truly glad you're still on-board.

Watch from the perspective of your senses all day as continuously as you can. This is important - it's not a 10 minute exercise.

If you want to stop and write stuff down periodically that's fine, or you can do it all at the end of the day. You're right, I don't need 1000 pages, but give me as much as you can. Trust your instincts about how much is enough.

[ENDY]

OK, will do tomorrow.

[csm]

Hi Endy,

Thanks for having some trust in this process.

I expect this exercise might get frustrating for you. If not, you can ignore this post. But I wanted to share a few ideas that might make today a little easier if you're feeling resistant to this exercise.

Try to remember today how marvelous our senses are. What would life be like without the taste of our favourite foods, the sound of our favourite music, the feeling of a loved one's touch? How grateful would you be if the smell of smoke awoke you in time to escape a fire? Or a sound behind you allowed you to jump out of the way of a bus?

Try today to celebrate your senses rather than taking them for granted.

There will be at least one follow-up exercise that builds directly on this one. But also, just the act of living today through your senses will subtly re-wire your brain in a way that will make it easier to see the truth.

I hope that makes this a little easier to swallow :)

[ENDY]

Thanks.

I've made an effort at this today but it has been intermittent and at times has felt a little forced (while at times it seems to occur naturally). I'm going to make a more complete attempt tomorrow. I'll post a description tomorrow night.

[csm]

That sounds good, thanks for the update :)