Requesting a Guide

[smudge]

Ha ha, lovely! yes its so simple! Its just the stories about how difficult it must be that get in the way.

Lets embed this realisation: POINTING

Carry out the following experiment. Actually DO it.

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see my face, I find no colour or shape here. I find boundless capacity or awareness this side of my pointing finger. This capacity is empty, clear, transparent. It is self-evidently awake, aware.

my finger, my view of the scene beyond, sounds, feelings…

What do you find?

[smudge]

Hows it going Til? Haven't heard from you for a few days, lets not lose the momentum!
Warm wishes
Smudge

[kanesdilemma]

Hi Smudge,

Sorry, I didn't see your last two posts.

When I last posted, I clearly saw the no-self nature of thoughts, sensations, body etc. There was an experience that I would describe as flowing/dynamic, or like being in the calm eye of the storm. There was still frustration, fear and all the regular things but nothing would 'stick'.

A few days later, I find it pretty much impossible to see things that way.

I'm wondering if my earlier 'seeing' was merely a creation of a new belief.

Any thoughts on this?

[smudge]

Hi Til,

If you tick the box under the box you type in that says 'notify me when a reply is posted' you will not miss posts, also I have agreed to post everyday so you can be sure I will keep to this.

I'm wondering if my earlier 'seeing' was merely a creation of a new belief.
Any thoughts on this?

It sounds like there is belief in thoughts, take another look form DE, what actually are thoughts, aren't they just a story? what do you expect to happen to thoughts when self is seen through?

NOW, Please do the exercise on pointing that I posted on 22nd jan,

Warm wishes
Smudge

[kanesdilemma]

take another look form DE, what actually are thoughts, aren't they just a story?

Yes. There are thoughts (which appear spontaneously), and some of these thoughts have 'I' as the subject, so they create the story of 'me'.

what do you expect to happen to thoughts when self is seen through?

I don't expect anything to happen to thoughts but I expect they will be experienced as just another phenomenon

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

As I look around the room, I see objects - chair, desk, my fingers, my feet etc.

Now point where others see your face.
What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

I assume you meant 'sense' when you said 'see'. When I point my finger at my face, I find nothing, as if there is no object there to be 'seen'. In fact, awareness (I'm not sure what to call it) goes right through the location of the head.
If I do this for a few seconds, attention/awareness seems to 'pop/leak' out the the head and expand.

Thoughts/sensations appear and disappear in this 'infinite nothingness' (as if there's a gigantic bowl of water, and thoughts/sensations are like these tiny water bubbles which appear grow as they rise up, and disappear)

[smudge]

I'm wondering if my earlier 'seeing' was merely a creation of a new belief.

This seemed to concern you,

You then said.....

I don't expect anything to happen to thoughts but I expect they will be experienced as just another phenomenon

So isn't the story/thoughts about the past seeing and whatever is going on in the present, another story or interpretation or description? Thoughts that tell a story of doubt in this case.
Look at what you call belief..is this anything other that a thought, maybe with a feeling? Lets investigate the ingredients of doubt and see if its anything other that just another dance of phenomenon. What is found, describe fully.

Thoughts/sensations appear and disappear in this 'infinite nothingness' (as if there's a gigantic bowl of water, and thoughts/sensations are like these tiny water bubbles which appear grow as they rise up, and disappear)

So no self found!
So now do this to take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

You are doing great, keep going.

[kanesdilemma]

Thanks for your patience!

Lets investigate the ingredients of doubt and see if its anything other that just another dance of phenomenon. What is found, describe fully.

I see that doubt is experienced as thoughts and anxious feelings (sensations of fluttering in the stomach). The thoughts "I'm feeling anxious" , "This is just another belief" appear spontaneously, without there being a thinker - so I agree that they are just weaving a story.
When there is a great deal of emotion, these thoughts seem to happen rapidly, so it becomes harder to notice that they don't occur to a self.

Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like

I can see the fingers being pointed along with my hands/arms. Beyond them, I can see the rest of the room. There is a sort of felt-sense in the body that turns up when I point the finger at myself).


I'm going to derail the current conversation by adding something more. I get that there is no doer. Doer is created by thoughts/feelings. Despite this, jobs are being done, food is being eaten, phone calls are made etc...

Even if there is really no self in the body, the body is still the focal point of experience. So right now, I see clearly that thoughts/feelings imply no self, but there is identification with the body as the self. Does this seem right?

[smudge]

Thanks for your patience!

You are welcome, I point, you LOOK :-)

I see that doubt is experienced as thoughts and anxious feelings

YES!

it becomes harder to notice that they don't occur to a self

Is it true though that thoughts and feelings just happen with no doer regardless of what is believed? Look, any doest found? Do you expect believing thoughts to stop once realisation happens?
Just as Santa was once believed does that mean he was real then? Same with self, believing in Til doesn't make (him/her?) real. Does it?? There NEVER has been a Til and yet it all mysteriously happens just as it does! Look, is this true?

I'm going to derail the current conversation by adding something more. I get that there is no doer

This dialouge is about DE, you went into conceptualising, i.e. thoughts about, I am inviting you to look in the here and now and report back.

If resistance comes up notice and describe the ingredients of resistance. Thoughts, feelings, volitions, sensations...anything else or just a dance of these ingredients arising and creating a play?

Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like. Emptiness and form doing their thing, a world of paradox is waiting to be noticed! LOOK!

[kanesdilemma]

Is it true though that thoughts and feelings just happen with no doer regardless of what is believed? Look, any doest found? Do you expect believing thoughts to stop once realisation happens?

Yes - it is true that thought and feelings arise without a doer. This is true even with regards to belief - they too do not arise from a self. I expect all these thoughts would continue to appear even after realization - but I expect there to be the observation that thoughts don't arise from a self.

Just as Santa was once believed does that mean he was real then? Same with self, believing in Til doesn't make (him/her?) real. Does it?? There NEVER has been a Til and yet it all mysteriously happens just as it does! Look, is this true?

I agree - belief in something does not make it real. Believing does not imply a believer. The believer/doer/I only exist as thoughts/feelings/sensations.

Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like. Emptiness and form doing their thing, a world of paradox is waiting to be noticed! LOOK!

I don't have anything to add to my previous response - there is the scene in front of me - including my hands, along with sensations felt in the body.

Also, I'm quite sure my face is still there.

[smudge]

So you 'get it' concepualy. This is very different from DE.

but I expect there to be the observation that thoughts don't arise from a self.

Hmm, lets drop that expectation, it's getting in the way on finding out for real.

Please actaully describe fully what is seen in detail when I guide you to actually look.

I asked you to point both towards and away from the place your 'think' your face is, first time you derailed doing this and now you say you have nothing to add. It is a different exercise to just pointing inwards. So third time lucky, I ask again, please DO the 2 way looking and give full description of what is found.

Also, I'm quite sure my face is still there.

This is a concept, please give actual experience of this being true if it is!) from the 2 way pointing exercise.

[kanesdilemma]

I ask again, please DO the 2 way looking and give full description of what is found.

I think I missed the point about the 'think' part. This time, no thinking and just looking ( which is what you wanted me to do in the first place I think).
'
The fingers, the computer screen and the far side of the room appear in my view. ( I name objects here but if there are no thoughts, there are no objects as such - just seeing).

There is no sense of a looker, or even an effort to look, there is just seeing.

There are bodily sensations (some pain in my legs and a slight headache - of course the 'pain', 'my', 'legs' , 'headache' all came from thoughts. WIthout the thoughts there are just sensations appearing in different locations.

Apart of the parts of the head/face area which have sensations (due to the headache), the rest of the head is not present in the current experience.

[smudge]

There is no sense of a looker

Apart of the parts of the head/face area which have sensations (due to the headache), the rest of the head is not present in the current experience.

Yes! and headache is a concept isn't it? no head so just ache?? Keep noticing how concepts (like head...or I) are used without knowing they are just concepts or an image of something thats not really there.

Keep doing this as you go about your day (2 way looking). Its a literal seeing not a 'sense of'. Nothing this way, everything that way. Kinda throws everything on its head doesn't it? The story of a separate I this side and objects thats side, Look, is there any separation between the experience, the experiencer and the experienced? What is found and whats that like??

[kanesdilemma]

Hi,
I've been tied up at work - but I've been following your suggestion - I will post late today or in the morning tomorrow my time.

[smudge]

Great, and don't forget the question. x

[kanesdilemma]

Keep doing this as you go about your day (2 way looking). Its a literal seeing not a 'sense of'. Nothing this way, everything that way. Kinda throws everything on its head doesn't it? The story of a separate I this side and objects thats side, Look, is there any separation between the experience, the experiencer and the experienced? What is found and whats that like??

Without thoughts and mental images, there is absolutely no distinction between the experience, experiencer and the experienced (in fact, none of those words have any meaning without thoughts).

The experience of 'this' and 'that' is created by thoughts and mental images. When I'm looking across the room (while doing the two way looking), there is the direct sensory experience of seeing across the room, but there is also the thought 'I am looking across the room' along with a mental image of my head. As the mental image and the thought fade away, there are no boundaries just one seamless experience.

Then the next thought/mental picture comes about and a the 'story of me' is again alive.