guidance, please!

[ealow1]

There is no me that exists.

I am oscillating between being able to see this clearly and being overrun by doubts

[Bill]

There is no me that exists.

I am oscillating between being able to see this clearly and being overrun by doubts

Erica - you say you're oscillating... between clear seeing, and doubt.
Doubt must mean there's an I here.
I can assure you that if you stay out of thinking and just take an honest look
at reality, the answer is obvious.
Let's look..

True or false... if you look for one, is there is an 'I' to be found? How about a 'self'?

* * * * * * *

If you write a name on a piece of paper, will the piece of paper be that name?
If you get a pet and give it a name, will the pet be that name? Or will it just be a pet you named in that way?
Was the pet breathing and eating and drinking before you gave it that name? And how about you.
If you had another name, would you still be breathing and eating and drinking?
If you had no name at all, would breathing, eating, and drinking still be happening?
Breathing, eating, and drinking are happening to no one. They are just happening.
There is nothing and nobody behind the experiencing.

Where is the sense of the "I" being felt right this instant? Where is it's location if it has one?
What are the perceptions that tell you its there?

[ealow1]

I can assure you that if you stay out of thinking and just take an honest look
at reality, the answer is obvious.

I can definitely see that doubts are just thoughts. They just really stick sometimes (not currently)

True or false... if you look for one, is there is an 'I' to be found? How about a 'self'?

Way false - they are segments of thoughts, but they aren’t real

If you had no name at all, would breathing, eating, and drinking still be happening?
Breathing, eating, and drinking are happening to no one. They are just happening.
There is nothing and nobody behind the experiencing.

Don’t need a name. Don’t need language at all to breathe, eat, and drink. They are just useful in certain ways.

Where is the sense of the "I" being felt right this instant? Where is it's location if it has one?
What are the perceptions that tell you its there?

I is just part of thoughts, which I can notice/sense in my body. But if I sense something else, and there is no thought (like just sensing sound), I isn’t there.

[Bill]

Erica - you are saying that you see that I is an illusion.
There is for sure a mental understanding.
Is this an intellectual understanding only, or have you seen this?
Is it true that there is no separate entity, no “me,” in real life?

If you can find a park, sit there for a bit, and watch how everything moves and wiggles, how the wind blows, how the clouds move. If you can’t find a park, a view through a window is fine too. People and animals move. Everything is one movement, including your body, breath, and thoughts. Watch the totality, and notice there is no “noticer” separate from the noticing. And no controller either. Just relax and see what's there.
Let me know what's up with you... write about it.

[ealow1]

Is this an intellectual understanding only, or have you seen this?
Is it true that there is no separate entity, no “me,” in real life?

I’ve seen it. When I had doubts a couple days ago, those were just thoughts, and i was able to effortlessly question what was behind them and see it was nothing. Then the mental state of having lots of doubts passed and I could see more clearly.

It is true that there is no “me.”

Everything is one movement, including your body, breath, and thoughts. Watch the totality, and notice there is no “noticer” separate from the noticing. And no controller either. Just relax and see what's there.

Will do this when I walk to school. Haven’t seen everything as “one movement” yet, but I have seen that everything just moves and that’s it.

Today when I meditated I saw that when I was fully absorbed in the breath, there were no thoughts about I, so nothing was there thinking, “but WHAT is experiencing this?!?” Just experience. When that thought comes it never sticks. I totally see that the idea that there has to be an experiencer is just an offshoot of language.

Beliefs are starting to fall away too. I can’t remember all of the beliefs that have fallen, but there used to be a huge urge to constantly accomplish things, and lots of insecurity about not getting things done during the day. Since this body and mind is not mine, it really doesn’t matter if I am great or productive or awesome or not. If I fail at something, fine, if I win, that’s fine. I had a belief that I must get the most out of this life, and do something worth writing about, fix a huge world problem, etc, but the belief in those things actually holds this body back from doing them. It’ll happen, or it won’t. I mean it's ok to have the drive in this body/mind, because then it will try to do those things, but there is no internal panic or "what if I don't" or um... stickiness?

[ealow1]

It is hard to explain exactly what stickiness is, but I can see when a thought sticks and when it doesn't.

The word sort of doesn't make sense because there is nothing to stick to, so there never was stickiness.

I suppose, then, if a thougth sticks, then it produces more and more thoughts and sensations and it's just a neverending chain. So thoughts stick to each other.

[Bill]

Excellent work Erica!
I like what you wrote... I can feel a big difference in your tone.
Just know that doubts do show up from time to time.. Expect them to.
It doesn't mean all is lost or that this hasn't been seen.

Today when I meditated I saw that when I was fully absorbed in the breath, there were no thoughts about I, so nothing was there thinking, “but WHAT is experiencing this?!?” Just experience. When that thought comes it never sticks. I totally see that the idea that there has to be an experiencer is just an offshoot of language.

A note about mediation... there's certainly nothing wrong with it if a person is drawn to it. But what we're talking about here is beyond any meditative state... I think you get that but want to make sure.

Beliefs are starting to fall away too. I can’t remember all of the beliefs that have fallen, but there used to be a huge urge to constantly accomplish things, and lots of insecurity about not getting things done during the day. Since this body and mind is not mine, it really doesn’t matter if I am great or productive or awesome or not. If I fail at something, fine, if I win, that’s fine. I had a belief that I must get the most out of this life, and do something worth writing about, fix a huge world problem, etc, but the belief in those things actually holds this body back from doing them. It’ll happen, or it won’t. I mean it's ok to have the drive in this body/mind, because then it will try to do those things, but there is no internal panic or "what if I don't" or um... stickiness?

I know this feeling well. It's been drilled into us that we must make our life work..whatever that means... and its important and we have to do it and we won't be 'happy' if we don't strive with all our being to do this..
Seeing this cultural belief fully is a freeing thing for sure.
We know that all of that is not based in reality, even if we can't give it up totally.
I like how you've expressed it here.

It is hard to explain exactly what stickiness is, but I can see when a thought sticks and when it doesn't.
The word sort of doesn't make sense because there is nothing to stick to, so there never was stickiness.
I suppose, then, if a thougth sticks, then it produces more and more thoughts and sensations and it's just a neverending chain. So thoughts stick to each other.

Seeing how thoughts operate is one of the byproducts of seeing through the self.
We see that our thoughts are there, but not necessarily the truth.
And yes the thought train can get going, and one thought can lead to another and then a long story is formed and we're willing to defend it to the death. It's amazing how it seems to be.

The most important thing is that this is not the end of the road. It’s the first step of an awakened, authentic life. While the belief in a separate and real “you” may be gone, chances are, a big part of the ego-based structure built on top of that belief is still in place. How big, only you can know. It is likely that at some point doubts will come up, reactions that may be considered “not useful” will happen, and (possibly deep) negativity will arise. The important thing here is that all these things used to cling to, and be fueled through, the idea of self, which is now seen as an illusion. So whenever thoughts or emotions come up that are judged to be negative, don’t avoid, don’t resist, don’t argue. Just stay with them, and watch them happen and unfold. It’s not personal, so it has nowhere to stick to. This kind of cleanup is obviously not a pleasant process, but you’ll likely realize that it actually works. All you have to do is take your hands off the steering wheel and let things burn when they are set on fire.

Write about whatever you feel is missing... if anything
Or you might want more clarity on anything.

[ealow1]

Just know that doubts do show up from time to time.. Expect them to.
It doesn't mean all is lost or that this hasn't been seen.

what a relief!!! They keep coming but they always are seen through. I had a few times during the day where I was so absorbed in a story, and then a thought, “remember? this isn’t your story” would come, and it was almost jolting. There is a lot of oscillation - does this go away or is it always there? Though honestly it's fine either way.

A note about mediation... there's certainly nothing wrong with it if a person is drawn to it. But what we're talking about here is beyond any meditative state... I think you get that but want to make sure.

Yes, I can have this same experience just looking at something or listening to a sound

It’s the first step of an awakened, authentic life. While the belief in a separate and real “you” may be gone, chances are, a big part of the ego-based structure built on top of that belief is still in place.

Yes, I can see there is a big pile of that.

I can’t think of anything missing at the moment (very tired). There are no thoughts saying something is unclear either.

A big THANK YOU to you and Space for your time and energy.

[Bill]

what a relief!!! They keep coming but they always are seen through. I had a few times during the day where I was so absorbed in a story, and then a thought, “remember? this isn’t your story” would come, and it was almost jolting. There is a lot of oscillation - does this go away or is it always there? Though honestly it's fine either way.

Erica - Sounds very good.
You've done nice work.
It's just seeing things as they are.
Being able to LOOK at what's here.
and what's not here.
The story doesn't go away, but it gets easier and easier to see.
See how simple this really is?
We tell people its this easy, but its so hard to let go of our preconceived notions.

I think now you're ready for the final questions.
Take your time.... no rush at all on these.
answer all fully as you can as your experience is now...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[ealow1]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, and no.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I think it starts whenever the mind can understand language. The idea that there must be an experiencer probably came from the mind learning that every idea must have a subject and a verb: experiencer -> experience. Since the mind is basically a labeling machine, it is pretty attached to language, so whenever something contradicts this idea it reacts automatically with a bunch of thoughts to the contrary.

“I” is a thought, and I think humans have evolved to think it because it offers lots of benefits to survival. If I need food to survive, and think of myself as a separate thing that really, really needs food, and have lots of emotions to go with it, I am more driven to get food. It is also useful in communication - language helps people survive by banding together. The illusion of separate self is just never questioning what the “I” word refers to.

On separation, there are not separate agents or movers moving around, it is more like a snowglobe. In a snowglobe, everything moves around, bumping into each other. Things appear to move separately and uniquely, but they are all part of the same moving thing.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Life now compared to a month ago is the same, except there is no “doom.” There is anger and negativity but it is understood that it belongs to no one and is just a result of conditioning. There is joy that some more harmful beliefs will fall off, as they have begun to, but if they don’t that’s ok too. “I” thoughts still happen. Sometimes they are useful, and sometimes they hurt.

By “doom,” I meant I (as in this mind/body) would have painful thoughts, then painful thoughts about those painful thoughts, etc. etc. that would create incredibly painful sensations that led it to react in really crappy ways. That could definitely happen again, because thoughts still come, but the chain would eventually break because this body/mind understands that no one is thinking the thoughts and they will go away since no one is there to feed them.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was gradual and subtle so I’m not sure if there is a specific moment. The gate is just seeing that there is nothing in control of the body, so whenever there was acceptance, I was through the gate. Doubts happen occasionally but they are just ownerless messages.

The idea that ownership is not real did create a crack in the illusion, though - a very tiny one - which enabled other ideas to crumble. As a child I was very suspicious of the ownership thing, so looking at this made everything make more sense. Whenever doubts come now, it is easy to remind myself that no one owns them, and then go from there. So if there was a crucial moment, it was when I saw that thoughts, and eventually the mind and body, were not owned.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No. This body chooses what it wants to do based on genes and conditioning. It seeks out food because it is hungry, or thinks something will be nutritious. It picks up an instrument because a thought appeared that told it that would be a good idea. It answers the phone because the mind knows ringing = someone wants to talk. It learns whatever the mind has the capacity to learn and uses it to get further in life because it has that drive in the form of emotions, thoughts, sensations. So the body chooses but there is no I to choose, and nothing owning the body.

6) Anything to add?

Seeing that the body and mind are the same thing brings a lot of joy to this person - very nice side effect.

[Bill]

Erica - Excellent work. I really liked how you've taken a look.
You really don't seem to be afraid of deeply looking... I can tell from your answers.

All liked your responses.. (me too) I especially liked your answers to Q2 on language
and Q4 on ownership and how looking at that helped you to see.
One person had two questions as it related to Q3 that she'd like your comments on.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Life now compared to a month ago is the same, except there is no “doom.” There is anger and negativity but it is understood that it belongs to no one and is just a result of conditioning. There is joy that some more harmful beliefs will fall off, as they have begun to, but if they don’t that’s ok too. “I” thoughts still happen. Sometimes they are useful, and sometimes they hurt.

By “doom,” I meant I (as in this mind/body) would have painful thoughts, then painful thoughts about those painful thoughts, etc. etc. that would create incredibly painful sensations that led it to react in really crappy ways. That could definitely happen again, because thoughts still come, but the chain would eventually break because this body/mind understands that no one is thinking the thoughts and they will go away since no one is there to feed them.

I'm going to give you the questions exactly as they were presented to me, if you could respond
when you can.

Could you ask her:

What/where is 'this mind/body' in direct experience?

Is there a 'body/mind' that understands?

The context of those questions deal with the body/mind being an entity, a self, an I.
What does it 'mean' exactly when you use the term body/mind?

[ealow1]

I'm going to have to answer these tomorrow - very tired

[ealow1]

What/where is 'this mind/body' in direct experience?

It can be seen, touched, heard, smelled, etc. Nerves are “the mind” and they can be seen/touched etc.

Is there a 'body/mind' that understands?

Maybe it doesn’t understand, and it is more accurate to say that it is conditioned, or it can learn. So there is a body/mind that is conditioned to think thoughts about understanding.

Right now I am thinking that there is an experiencer, and it is the body, it’s just owned and controlled by no one. The body senses. I think this doesn’t really work with what I said earlier. A bit confused.

[Bill]

Erica - Let me put this in a slightly different way than these questions did, which is more in line with the dialogue we had....

If you LOOK, right here and now...is there body/mind that is in control of anything?

Just look in the next few moments right where you are...
Is life happening TO someone? Or is life just happening?
Is there a you that is experiencing anything? Or is experience just happening.

Is it more true to say, I walk..... or walking is happening?
Is the body/mind an entity that is an experiencer, or is experience just happening?

LOOKING is the way to answer these questions.

[ealow1]

If you LOOK, right here and now...is there body/mind that is in control of anything?

No, it is just moving around and being affected by things.

Just look in the next few moments right where you are...
Is life happening TO someone? Or is life just happening?

Life is just happening. What I thought was “me” previously (my body) is part of that life.

Is there a you that is experiencing anything? Or is experience just happening.

There’s just experiencing.

Is it more true to say, I walk..... or walking is happening?

Walking is happening is more true. Is it ok to say, “this person is walking?” That could just be thoughts that want to put subjects in front of verbs.

Is the body/mind an entity that is an experiencer, or is experience just happening?

My impulse is to say that there is a body/mind that is experiencing. But all labeling (and separation) comes from thoughts. Names are just thoughts, and they don’t actually do anything to what they name. So before thoughts, no way is there an experiencer, just experience happening in one big motion.