Looking for a guide, requesting omahhum88.

[Robbie]

Hi,
I am hoping to see through the illusion of a separate self, or to see if I have already seen it, but I doubt I have.
I am requesting to be led by omahhum88 if possible?
Many thanks,
Love Robbie

[vinceschubert]

Hi Robbie, vince here. Probably best to exclude potential problems with existing relationships, so i will guide you if you are happy with that.
If you are;
first a contract.
Are you willing to;
(try and) post every day ?
To give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
To relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
To suspend all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, satsang etc.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, you will not only attempt to answer them for me, you will communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.
Agreed ?

To use the quote function, first click "post reply"
Then scroll down to my post and highlight (drag mouse over) the question or part of it that you want to respond to, then click "quote" at the top of my reply. This will put the quote in the Reply editor. You then type your response.

Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

vince

[Robbie]

Hi Vince,
Thanks for agreeing to guide me.
I agree that existing relationships might pose a problem, so I am in.
I will (try and) post every day, this shouldn't be a problem.

I'm not really sure what I expect to find or see, I feel that intellectually I can recognise an absence of a fixed permanent self but am unsure of how much I really believe it.

To be totally honest I am expecting a sort of break through moment, something like a new vision or way or seeing.

Part of me is sceptical and thinking I have already 'seen' so what more will I find, something like that.

Robbie

[vinceschubert]

I feel that intellectually I can recognise an absence of a fixed permanent self

Ok, lots of contradictions in this statement. Let's see if we can clarify it a bit.
When you say "feel", do you mean 'think' ?
Is recognition something that can happen at an intellectual level ?
How can you recognise something that is not there ?
Is there a self that is not fixed or permanent ?

vince

[Robbie]

Hi Vince,

When you say "feel", do you mean 'think' ?

Yes, i mean think.

Is recognition something that can happen at an intellectual level ?

I'm going to say yes, I recognise sensations intellectually, like a sensation is experienced and is then recognised in my mind as a thought, that it is cold or warm for example.

How can you recognise something that is not there ?

You can't.

Is there a self that is not fixed or permanent ?

No, nothing is permanent.

Robbie x

[vinceschubert]

I'm going to say yes, I recognise sensations intellectually, like a sensation is experienced and is then recognised in my mind as a thought, that it is cold or warm for example.

Ok, these are thoughts that simply describe what you are experiencing. Right ?
The other kind of thoughts are those that are responding to previous thoughts. They are deductions from reasoning and get away from direct experiencing and become story. They are conceptual.
Avoiding these, and using pure description, from your direct experiencing, explain what Robbies' Self is.
Where is it ? How does it operate ? What characteristics does it have ? etc. Give me a rant on it.

vince

[Robbie]

Morning Vince,

Ok, these are thoughts that simply describe what you are experiencing. Right ?

Yes, the first thought is just a description of experience.

Where is it ?

I looked for a while and thought I found him in choice, then I realised my choice was in fact just choice, there was no chooser. Like I had a bank of memories and preferences and choice just happened based on these conditions. Any thought I had after about a chooser was just another thought and nothing more. I looked everywhere in my experience and cannot find a self hiding away.

How does it operate ?

I don't think "it" does, I used to think it was operating in my 'development', making me want more and more from life. This is just choice and preference again so it can't operate from there. Other than that I'm unsure.

What characteristics does it have ?

It is separate, fragile, lazy and always dissatisfied. Whatever it is it seems to get offended by experiences, so it can be embarrassed or humiliated.

Robbie

[vinceschubert]

Morning Robbie.

It is separate, fragile, lazy and always dissatisfied.

So this description relates to something, somewhere. Can you locate a general area where it resides ?

Whatever it is it seems to get offended by experiences, so it can be embarrassed or humiliated.

These characteristics and the "dissatisfied" above would more accurately be described as emotional responses, would you say ?
Write a little more about;
"separate"...
"fragile"...

vince

[Robbie]

Vince,

So this description relates to something, somewhere. Can you locate a general area where it resides ?

In thoughts and that's it. I can't locate it anywhere else.

Write a little more about;
"separate"...
"fragile"...

This idea of separate relates to the way in which it is 'me' who can sense and respond, others can't feel my emotions or think my thoughts and this makes me feel separate.
Fragile in relation to the characteristics of a/my self, it always needs bolstering up and adding to. A compulsive need to make it better and if I don't it will fail, it will get damaged. It is like a corner I am defending. This seems to be a straight response but when I look into it there is nothing else but thought reactions.

Thanks for your time and effort,
Robbie

[vinceschubert]

Morning Robbie,

In thoughts and that's it. I can't locate it anywhere else.

So, comprised of thought makes it entirely conceptual ?
Of course, any emotional response to a concept is very real.
Does this mean that anger, frustration, disappointment (and the whole gamut of emotional responses) were always the result of thought fluff ?

others can't feel my emotions or think my thoughts

(although it might be true) How can you know this. Is this just another story that you have told yourself ? (using personal pronouns here just for the convenience of communication - not referring to an actual 'you' or 'yourself')

this makes me feel separate.

Ok, i take it that you don't mean "was forced to.." when you say "makes me", but describe the "feel" of being separate. Describe from experiencing (now) not from thought.

it always needs bolstering up and adding to.

Yes, seems to be a habit of thought to reinforce the idea of a Self. Almost as if it has an independent mind of it's own. (Ha, how can thought have it's own thoughts)

but when I look into it there is nothing else but thought reactions.

So what is the experiencing as you SEE that it it nothing but thought reactions ?

love

vince

[Robbie]

Hi Vince,
Sorry for the late reply, i was put off by the amount of questions (amount to do), this is a theme for me.

So, comprised of thought makes it entirely conceptual ?

Yes, concepts are formed in the mind. I don't have any control of these thoughts.

Does this mean that anger, frustration, disappointment (and the whole gamut of emotional responses) were always the result of thought fluff ?

Not sure really, sometimes anger can be my response and it doesn't come from a thought as such, it just happens, then i start to think about it, as to why, who etc. I don't control these states of mind either.

(although it might be true) How can you know this. Is this just another story that you have told yourself ?

I know this through experience, I experience a thought and the person sat next to me is none the wiser. This is a story or view but I feel confident it is a right one.

describe the "feel" of being separate. Describe from experiencing (now) not from thought.

It feels like it is mine to control, also that I am here and other things or people are over there or not me. I feel like I don't know what is going on elsewhere and that makes it separate. I am the one experiencing my life and emotions and it seems to be the result of external stimuli on me.

So what is the experiencing as you SEE that it it nothing but thought reactions ?

My experience is that there is no controller, I have been experiencing a more and more accepting approach to my daily life and much more awareness of my habits.
Thanks vince.
Robbie

[vinceschubert]

Hi Robbie.

i was put off by the amount of questions

Just do what appeals. You can break them up over several days if you like. Better to keep a momentum.

I don't have any control of these thoughts.

Do you have any control over the reactions to these thoughts ?

sometimes anger can be my response and it doesn't come from a thought as such, it just happens, then i start to think about it

So if the thoughts come after the emotion and they do what thoughts do, which is rave on about things. is there a belief, a story about what should happen, that is a condition of the anger ?

I don't control these states of mind either.

Is the emphasis on "I" or "control" ?

I experience a thought and the person sat next to me is none the wiser.

Yes, it seems this way. ..and although it might be true, you CAN'T know this, at the moment that you had that thought. (you might be able to confirm it later - but at that moment it is just supposition.)

This is a story or view but I feel confident it is a right one.

That confidence, does it amount to a belief ? a thought story ? ...and although it makes every sense to behave AS IF it is true, it is still only thought fluff ? right ?

It feels like it is mine to control

Is this a sense of ownership ?

also that I am here and other things or people are over there or not me

Is this a sensation ? Do you think that it might be the coming together of conditions that lead to this physical sense of separation ?
Have you seen the BBC video "The Secret Self". In it the researcher uses virtual reality goggles to induce the subject to think he is behind himself. Here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E
There are some other really good things in this video.
Before you watch it. Consider this;
Can a see-er exist without the seen ? Can the seen exist without the see-er ?
Is it possible that both these are not, in fact, discreet things, but are integral to the only thing that does exist, which is the Experiencing called SEEing ?

have been experiencing a more and more accepting approach to my daily life

Ha, yes. Excellent. This IS it ! - so there is no point in being anything other than accepting. Besides, it's already finished by several seconds when aware-ing of it happens.

vince

[Robbie]

Alright vince,
Will try to keep up the momentum.

Do you have any control over the reactions to these thoughts ?

No they are reactions. Even in meditation on the breath, if i get lost in reactions on a thought I don't have any control of when it will end, but it does then I am able to steady myself again. Good conditions help but I am unable to control it.

So if the thoughts come after the emotion and they do what thoughts do, which is rave on about things. is there a belief, a story about what should happen, that is a condition of the anger ?

Don't get this question.

Is the emphasis on "I" or "control" ?

Control.

That confidence, does it amount to a belief ? a thought story ? ...and although it makes every sense to behave AS IF it is true, it is still only thought fluff ? right ?

Well it isn't my direct experience, which means it is an after thought.

Is this a sense of ownership ?

Yes, but I know there is nothing directly to own. More that there can be no owner, I can't really own what I can't control.

Is this a sensation ? Do you think that it might be the coming together of conditions that lead to this physical sense of separation ?

Yes, for sure.

Can a see-er exist without the seen ? Can the seen exist without the see-er ?
Is it possible that both these are not, in fact, discreet things, but are integral to the only thing that does exist, which is the Experiencing called SEEing ?

There can't be a see-er without the seen, just as the seen can't exist (separately) without a see-er or an experience of seeing. Without SEEing there is neither the seen nor the see-er, it is only direct experience which truly exists.

Will watch the video later, looks good.

Thanks, Robbie

[vinceschubert]

No they are reactions. Even in meditation on the breath, if i get lost in reactions on a thought I don't have any control of when it will end, but it does then I am able to steady myself again.

When you say "but it does then I am able to steady myself again." there is the implication that you control "steadiness"... ?

So if the thoughts come after the emotion and they do what thoughts do, which is rave on about things. is there a belief, a story about what should happen, that is a condition of the anger ?
Don't get this question.

Yeah, it was a but convoluted.
What i was saying was that although you noticed that thoughts came after the emotion, that there have been previous thoughts, that added up to a story, about what the outcome of a situation like that SHOULD be. ..and that is what the emotion is a response to. But don't believe me. LOOK. Is there ideas about preferable outcomes ?

Without SEEing there is neither the seen nor the see-er, it is only direct experience which truly exists.

Now, this is a big one. You imply that with Seeing there is a separate see-er and a seen ? Is it possible that they don't exist at all ? That the see-er and the seen are, in fact, just mental labels ? Conceptual divisions that have been taken as real ? (language encourages this)
Is it possible that there is ONLY experiencing, that is labeled seeing ?


vince

[Robbie]

Morning Vince,
Didn't get to post yesterday, had work and friends visiting.

When you say "but it does then I am able to steady myself again." there is the implication that you control "steadiness"... ?

This wasn't what I was trying to imply, I mean steadied or back to the intention of the meditative exercise. I have no control of how long this will take but again conditions help.

Is there ideas about preferable outcomes ?

Yes, I have been noticing lately that expectations are never useful, in fact I can see how they have and do cause a lot of suffering. When I have been experiencing anger or frustration lately I have been noticing that it was always based on a preferred outcome, expecting (thinking) the bill should be less or that I should have gone to bed earlier. A more accepting approach lessens, even dissolves these negative emotional responses.

Is it possible that there is ONLY experiencing, that is labeled seeing ?

Yes, I agree. Ultimately there are no such things as SEEing or HEARing or FEELing as separate experience, just experience. It is only a label from the thought associated to the faculty, that becomes SEEing etc.

Thanks Vince, this has definitely been an illuminating experience, the video was very good by the way, you might of started with it! I have developed a much more accepting approach to life with a new and improved respect for good conditions (not implying I 'control' these conditions.)

Kind regards, Robbie