guidance, please!

[Bill]

We have a little koan that can be helpful
No need to comment on it unless you want to..
just let it register and come back and read it from time to time.

Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

[ealow1]

OK, watched the video again, the difference between looking and reasoning is getting a little clearer.

Do the thumbs just move, or do they move only by thoughts telling them?

If I’m typing then it seems like they are responding to thoughts about words. But I can also just move them around like aldskjofiuawelrkjociausdlfkj with no thought at all. I can also walk without thinking about walking, so there can be just moving and no thought. I can do chores without thinking much about the chores either.
So far I have only found thoughts, not a thing directing the show, but I definitely need to keep looking tonight.

[Bill]

Tell me Erica what you are seeing and feeling up to this point..
Are any fears coming up? Any blocks you can see?
Do you feel you've seen the illusion? Tell me what sense or not any of this is making.
I want you to continue with the video on looking as it is the most important thing.
If there was one thing I could tell you to do, it would be simply to "Just LOOK"

If I’m typing then it seems like they are responding to thoughts about words. But I can also just move them around like aldskjofiuawelrkjociausdlfkj with no thought at all. I can also walk without thinking about walking, so there can be just moving and no thought. I can do chores without thinking much about the chores either.
So far I have only found thoughts, not a thing directing the show, but I definitely need to keep looking tonight

When you're just being relaxed and typing what is the case?
Also when you are just walking without paying attention really... is it on automatic in a way?

Please take a good look at the exercise about looking for the entity below.
Take your time.. there's no rush on any of this. Its all for you.
Report back what you find as near as you can see it..
Here it is again:

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a entity living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Big difference.
Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

[ealow1]

I feel like things are slowly making more and more sense, but I have some doubts.

Like, just because all I see are thoughts, and no self, doesn’t mean there isn’t a self, right? I can’t see the center of the Earth for example but I know it exists. I have never seen Pluto but I know it exists.

Maybe the difference is that I can actually look for those things, and find them, and that others have found them, but no one so far has found a thing that is a self (that I know of).

What makes sense is that I don’t have control over thoughts, and that i haven’t found anything going on in me besides movements and thoughts.

A fear is that I’m not getting it, and never will get it, but it isn’t huge and I’m more patient than afraid. Another one is just fear of the unknown, like I dunno what will happen when I finally give up on my belief in self. It could hurt a lot. It could feel good too, though.

For when I’m just being relaxed and typing - I typed all that stuff without really thinking about typing, I just had thoughts and my hands automatically moved. Didn’t think about hands at all. They just moved.

Still haven’t found anything that “owns and directs my body,” just a bunch of thoughts chattering around.

[ealow1]

I have lots of free time tomorrow evening to do some more looking. Thanks!

[ealow1]

Hi Bill,

I have been trying to find something besides a thought, but haven't yet. However there are thoughts coming up that say, what if it's a thing that isn't a thought, and you just can't see it? Or something like that. Like, it's there, and I will never be able to see it. But that's also a little bit ridiculous.

Also, I've noticed that whenever I think "self, why didn't you do x today?" and then I think "i shouldn't judge myself" then it's like there are 3 selves, the one that didn't do x today, the one that judged the first self, and the third self reminding me not to judge myself. I can invent infinite selves with my thoughts. I can't tell which one of those selves are real, and I can forget about any of those selves, so it would make sense that all of them are invented. But I still have beliefs in a self.

[Bill]

Also, I've noticed that whenever I think "self, why didn't you do x today?" and then I think "i shouldn't judge myself" then it's like there are 3 selves, the one that didn't do x today, the one that judged the first self, and the third self reminding me not to judge myself. I can invent infinite selves with my thoughts. I can't tell which one of those selves are real, and I can forget about any of those selves, so it would make sense that all of them are invented. But I still have beliefs in a self.

Hello Erica,
I like how you're looking and questioning everything. Its the only way this works.
All of it needs to be SEEN by you. It can't be given or imparted.
Im not really getting a lot of fear from you. Great.

Yes, there can appear to be any number of selves.
What's common is a higher and lower self, and off shoots of these. All are imagined.
The higher one wants to be 'enlightened', eat a vegan diet, meditate and 'get' this.
The lower one says "Ah baloney, let's just have a good time"

Doubts are normal. We've lived our whole lives never even looking at this. It was unquestioned that there is a self. Just ask any of your friends if there's a self or not.... Ask them and you'll get a resounding "Yes, of course there is a me!" The thing is, it's never been looked into at all....

There is a 'sense of self'... Yes, but is it anything more than an aliveness that is felt?
As we look at all this, some things become clear.
What we thought was for sure reality may not be exactly like it appeared to us.
We always thought that our thoughts were 'king' and that we were the creator.
And 'in charge' and whatever other synonyms you could throw out.
Like wise with the body...... "It's mine"... "I'm in control"

But, are we?
Is there an 'I' that is in charge?
Or is this I just another thought?
If you truly LOOK, can you find an I in reality?
Just take a quick LOOK.
What's here?


I have two exercises for you to look at, both are very good.
Do them both and report back what is experienced.

1) Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a watermelon in your hands.
Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin.
Hold it there, sensing it for a few minutes.......and then open your eyes.
What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?

That which is real can be sensed in one or more ways.
That which is imagined exists only in the mind.

2) This is a really good one. Read it a few times to get the gist and follow it exactly.

For a few minutes....Relax into a 360 degree reception of sensory data around you: what you see, smell, hear, taste and feel against your body. For example: feet feel warm with some pressure against them, fingers feel plastic keyboard, armchair felt against back, etc. Lose yourself so that only sensations remain. Listen to the noise of fridge or something similar, intensively like never before. Let the mind register everything, but relax from the need to label anything at all.

If you do this exercise well enough, you will end up in a very relaxed state of being where there is no identity of you present. You are relaxed from the "I" thought. Then you can notice how "I" thoughts start to come back, but don't believe those thoughts, just stay relaxed and look at them.

Now tell me from your own direct experience:
Are you able to find 'you' anywhere?
Sensations happen, the mind registers everything, but is Erica anywhere?

There will be a sense of aliveness, but there's nothing personal about that. You can trust that aliveness, it's like your anchor to authentic life.
Write about what you experience with this.

[ealow1]

Hi Bill,

Here are the results from the exercises. I did them at least a couple times throughout the day and am having some trouble figuring them out.

1) held the watermelon, opened my eyes, and it disappeared. I thought it was incredibly strange that I can activate senses using only thoughts. Not that that’s uncommon - happens all the time - but weird, and probably accounts for a lot of suffering.

2) I was able to reach some sort of focus/relaxation, but “I” thoughts came frequently. I was able to see how jarring they were, occasionally. Like, “what am I doing? am I doing this right?”

I was not able to find a “me,” but some parts of me remain unconvinced.
Also, what is the difference between an impersonal aliveness and a separated self? Not completely sure about that.

[Bill]

HI Erica,

Thanks for your reply...

Tell me, what does the watermelon exercise show to you about what's 'real' and what's not real?

I was not able to find a “me,” but some parts of me remain unconvinced.
Also, what is the difference between an impersonal aliveness and a separated self? Not completely sure about that.

What parts are not convinced?
Where are these parts?

In your own words, what is the difference between an impersonal aliveness and a separated self?
(Not sure if I mentioned that you always get to answer your own questions as the answer is there to be uncovered by you... just use the Looking method we've been discussing).

[ealow1]

Tell me, what does the watermelon exercise show to you about what's 'real' and what's not real?

Last night I was really upset about a situation with my friend. I thought he didn’t like me very much anymore and imagined a bunch of scenes that “proved this.” I realized that even though it felt very very real it was just an embellishment that my mind made up and none of it was true. It didn’t make me feel any better (worse really) because I felt really stupid for believing all of this made-up crap, but it made the watermelon thing make sense. The reason why the illusion hurt was because I believed it. I didn’t believe the watermelon so I wasn’t disappointed when the watermelon wasn’t actually there. What it shows me is that thoughts can be very convincing, but in the end, not real. Though that doesn’t fix all my problems quite yet, haha.

What parts are not convinced?
Where are these parts?

There are thoughts to the contrary that keep happening, “No there definitely is a separate self” and also “you will never understand this.” So the unconvinced parts are just thoughts. They are buzzing around in my mind, or wherever other thoughts happen. The first thought likes to leap out as soon as any notion to the contrary happens. Usually I identify with it, but other times it is amusing to see how immediate and loud it is.

In your own words, what is the difference between an impersonal aliveness and a separated self?
(Not sure if I mentioned that you always get to answer your own questions as the answer is there to be uncovered by you... just use the Looking method we've been discussing).

Good idea :P

I’ve been thinking about the differences between plants and animals. Plants grow and stuff without a brain - they just follow their DNA. No one control center. A plant is definitely alive though. I don’t know for sure, but I doubt they think of themselves as separate, and they get their stuff done anyway. So maybe having a brain that can think “I” thoughts is just a thing that evolved because it got more food for a certain group of monkeys, and here I am.

I just wondered, “what is the perceiver of all these thoughts?” so I’m going to look at that. Whatever it is, it’s the same thing that feels senses like hearing. I am having thoughts like, “I don’t understand how nothing can perceive things, there has to be something perceiving!!!” Maybe it is the “impersonal aliveness,” like it is just a thing that is affected by other movements. So something moves and that has an impact in my eardrums which is interpreted as a sound by a sound interpreting thing and then a thought (as an electrical impulse or whatever) forms and that is all there is to it. Like if the wind moves a rock and the rock hits some water and some waves form. The thoughts just happen to seem very important.

The koan you posted earlier is making more sense, just a bunch of thoughts doing their thing.

[Bill]

Hi Erica...

Nice to see you bring up the koan.

Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think...
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

It really is this simple. So simple it can't be believed.
We are so indoctrinated with the 'I' being a real live substantial thing.
It's very hard to let this in.
Just take a quick look at what's here Erica.
Can you find a real 'I' anywhere?
Something real you can point to?
What if its really only a thought?
Would anything really be different?

The reason why the illusion hurt was because I believed it. I didn’t believe the watermelon so I wasn’t disappointed when the watermelon wasn’t actually there. What it shows me is that thoughts can be very convincing, but in the end, not real. Though that doesn’t fix all my problems quite yet, haha.

I think you get that none of this is going to fix any problems in your life.
Nothing will change except your perception.

There are thoughts to the contrary that keep happening, “No there definitely is a separate self” and also “you will never understand this.” So the unconvinced parts are just thoughts. They are buzzing around in my mind, or wherever other thoughts happen. The first thought likes to leap out as soon as any notion to the contrary happens. Usually I identify with it, but other times it is amusing to see how immediate and loud it is.

Just let all these thoughts come up to be looked at.
Don't push any of them away.
Doubts are here. Just look at them to see if they are real or not.

I am having thoughts like, “I don’t understand how nothing can perceive things, there has to be something perceiving!!!” Maybe it is the “impersonal aliveness,” like it is just a thing that is affected by other movements.

Take a look at this Erica...
Everything is happening by itself, including looking and seeing through illusion. Notice this. There is no effort, only thought about effort. Notice that there’s no one looking, but only looking and seeing happening.

Listen to a sound. What is hearing the sound? “I am” is simply a thought. Observe the direct experience of hearing the sound.

[ealow1]

Hi Bill,

Thanks so much for your patience, ha!

Last night I had an experience where I was reading something online and got absorbed (lost myself). Then I came back to some I thoughts and was totally jarred by them. I remembered my “story” or character and felt like I could barely remember being in it, and that it wasn’t real or something. I thought, ew story, get off me. The story is just a bunch of thoughts and I didn't need them.

I’ve tried to recreate this experience but haven’t been able to, probably because thoughts like “am I doing it yet??” pop up…

Can you find a real 'I' anywhere?
Something real you can point to?
What if its really only a thought?
Would anything really be different?

No, can’t find it. If it’s only a thought then fine, thoughts are everywhere anyway, nothing would be different.

back to the watermelon: Why do some thoughts get “believed” if no one is there to be a believer? I suppose believing is just letting the thought resonate through the body and affect movements? not that anybody is letting, it’s just resonating.

Just let all these thoughts come up to be looked at.
Don't push any of them away.
Doubts are here. Just look at them to see if they are real or not.

So if the thought “this is too difficult for me and I will never understand” comes up I can say, well I didn’t put that there. it just appeared. If it’s not real, then no thoughts are real. Right now I think thoughts are real, as just communications between neurons, but it’s not mine, because the body isn’t mine. I can point to a thought as some stuff happening between different parts of the brain - i dunno which specifically because I don't know much about brains. But I can’t point to a me that “I” thoughts are referencing, just the "I" thoughts. Let me know if I’m way off track.

There is no effort, only thought about effort.

wow. So much of what I stress out about is effort. I saw this the other day: I was working on something incredibly stressful, like peak of stressful, and realized that all I’m really doing is typing and reading and typing and reading and I didn’t need to “effort,” it just happened, my mind just figured out all the difficult stuff (it's a mind, that's what it does), yes it took forever, but it just happened. Then some effort-y thoughts came back and it was hard again. I have to work on that thing again today; i’ll see if this happens again.

Also have experienced “flow” states before, in playing music and writing and drawing, no thoughts about effort, just doing.

Listen to a sound. What is hearing the sound? “I am” is simply a thought. Observe the direct experience of hearing the sound.

After the thought “I am” passes it’s just hearing. Is it correct to say: “some ears and a brain are hearing”? makes sense to me, there’s no I in that.

Seeing that the body isn't mine is really resonating right now, so I'm going to reread our posts about that and play with it today. My back is killing me (what a goofy thing to say) so there's some nice sensations to investigate!!

[ealow1]

Also, just meditated, and was able to see clearly what you said earlier about thought being past tense (though only twice). I had a thought, and I looked, and it wasn't there. I saw that earlier, when i thought I was looking at a thought, it was just the memory of a thought. Then later I had a really emotional thought, and was able to see that it resulted in a sensation after it disappeared.

[Bill]

Erica very nice looking!

Also, just meditated, and was able to see clearly what you said earlier about thought being past tense (though only twice). I had a thought, and I looked, and it wasn't there. I saw that earlier, when i thought I was looking at a thought, it was just the memory of a thought.

Yes and think how dominant thoughts are in our life... and we can't even remember them a minute later!
Thoughts are real in the sense that they are happening.... but the content is suspect almost always.
It's always colored by our conditioning and interpretation. You might say its good to not believe all your thoughts right out of the box.

Last night I had an experience where I was reading something online and got absorbed (lost myself). Then I came back to some I thoughts and was totally jarred by them. I remembered my “story” or character and felt like I could barely remember being in it, and that it wasn’t real or something. I thought, ew story, get off me. The story is just a bunch of thoughts and I didn't need them.

I’ve tried to recreate this experience but haven’t been able to, probably because thoughts like “am I doing it yet??” pop up…

Remember that 'states' or experiences are not what we're going for.. These will come and go, especially in the early seeing of this.
Reality is not dependent upon us being in any particular state...
The I story will remain.. we can't function in the world without it.
But we can see that it is only an illusion. It becomes much less sticky.

Bill wrote:
Just let all these thoughts come up to be looked at.
Don't push any of them away.
Doubts are here. Just look at them to see if they are real or not.


So if the thought “this is too difficult for me and I will never understand” comes up I can say, well I didn’t put that there. it just appeared. If it’s not real, then no thoughts are real. Right now I think thoughts are real, as just communications between neurons, but it’s not mine, because the body isn’t mine. I can point to a thought as some stuff happening between different parts of the brain - i dunno which specifically because I don't know much about brains. But I can’t point to a me that “I” thoughts are referencing, just the "I" thoughts. Let me know if I’m way off track.

Ok I might not have expressed that as I was wanting..
What Im saying is to just let thoughts come up to be looked at.
They will come. Many times we get very negative things coming up and we spend alot of time fighting the thoughts.. resisting them, which really only perpetuates them. Usually if we allow things to just be they disperse on their own in their own time.
Awakening from the story of self does not mean that all of a sudden all of your problems are going to vanish that there will suddenly be no more tough emotions or challenging situations. This is not about getting away from difficulty, pain, and suffering. Not at all. These are, and will remain, part of the drama of living a human life. So please don’t consider difficult feelings and overwhelming thoughts as a sign that you’re never going to get this, or you’re doing things wrong.

wow. So much of what I stress out about is effort. I saw this the other day: I was working on something incredibly stressful, like peak of stressful, and realized that all I’m really doing is typing and reading and typing and reading and I didn’t need to “effort,” it just happened, my mind just figured out all the difficult stuff (it's a mind, that's what it does), yes it took forever, but it just happened. Then some effort-y thoughts came back and it was hard again.

That's a very nice realization. You're doing excellent with this.

Bill wrote:
Listen to a sound. What is hearing the sound? “I am” is simply a thought. Observe the direct experience of hearing the sound.
After the thought “I am” passes it’s just hearing. Is it correct to say: “some ears and a brain are hearing”? makes sense to me, there’s no I in that.

Yes and look at any other common activity and what we could also say if we weren't in the habit of putting an 'I' on every thing....
I walk - walking happens
I talk - talking happens
I eat - eating happens
I run - running happens
I think - thinking happens

Life just happens!

Imagine having blurry eyesight that came on so slowly you didn't notice you weren't seeing as clearly as before. Then someone hands you glasses with just the right prescription for you. Everything appears different. Has anything really changed?

How about not fabricating anything for a moment, and simply looking at what’s present right now?
Is there a self that can be found in direct experience?
What's here?

[ealow1]

How about not fabricating anything for a moment, and simply looking at what’s present right now?
Is there a self that can be found in direct experience?
What's here?

There are sensations of light, heat, touch, and smell right now in direct experience.
Haven’t found a self.
Not sure what to try next?