Looking for a guide

[Canfora]

Hey, it's nice to have you here!

Why did you find the questions tricky? Maybe because you used thought as a tool to find the "right" answers?
Thoughts can't see what's real. If i tell you "my dog is a basset hound and she's bigger than any other basset hound i ever saw" thoughts about what i'm saying will happen and maybe you will see an image of a big doggy has thought content but you will not see the real dog. The same way, relying on the ability of thoughts to make you see will keep you from seeing, from experiencing what's real... and only in reality can the illusion of a separate self be seen. Not in thoughts.

Please read the questions below and after that...
don't move for the next 5 minutes - not even blink!

After the "not moving" exercise answer the following questions:

What was experienced in reality (not thought, really experienced), what happened? Please describe.
What was experienced in thought? Please describe.
Was the experience in thought a real experience?

Did you experience reality happening in a different way than what was thought?
Can thoughts avoid things from happening? What exactly?
Can an agent be experienced? If yes, in what form? What proves the existance of the agent?

Looking forward to know how did it go.

[E.Z.E]

HI again! :)

Why did you find the questions tricky? Maybe because you used thought as a tool to find the "right" answers?
Thoughts can't see what's real. If i tell you "my dog is a basset hound and she's bigger than any other basset hound i ever saw" thoughts about what i'm saying will happen and maybe you will see an image of a big doggy has thought content but you will not see the real dog. The same way, relying on the ability of thoughts to make you see will keep you from seeing, from experiencing what's real... and only in reality can the illusion of a separate self be seen. Not in thoughts.

This most probably is the case - thoughts looking at thought causing the confusion. And what you wrote above about the ability of thoughts to see reality, that´s again understood on a conceptual level. Looking at the moon in the sky - that´s real and further thoughts about it are illusion, but I seem to have a problem in discerning real looking at thought from looking at thought with thought.

Please read the questions below and after that...
don't move for the next 5 minutes - not even blink!

This was really challenging even after years of experience in meditation. No problem in other movement but with eyes - wow, had to try it for half an hour to get a "clean" five minutes of no blinking/eye movement.

What was experienced in reality (not thought, really experienced), what happened? Please describe.

What was experienced in reality was a fluctuation or movement of awareness through physical senses. There were different kinds of stimuli that were registered by different parts of the senses (neighbour playing guitar and singing, moon glowing in the sky, planes flying accross the sky, girlfriend typing with laptop in the next room, warmth of bed underneath and so on) and awareness cycled through these stimuli. Most often a change in the stimuli (i.e. new song by neighbour after a break, a new plane in the sky etc.) attracted the awareness but it fluctuated by itself as well. The longer the exercise went, the more stimuli that would be normally filtered out as "background noise" attracted attention (i.e. visual snow on static surfaces, ringing in ears and so on).

What was experienced in thought? Please describe.
Was the experience in thought a real experience?

In thought, different kinds of projections on these stimuli were present as normally is in "thought noise". "Oh I wonder what song that is the neighbour is playing", "oh so it´s a full moon tonight" and so on. Then different kinds of projections about future and past kept coming up that had to do with a self that has experienced/will experience these things. Also, surprisingly the big struggle on NOT to blink eyes seemed to be mental as well - like two voices arguing over whether I should REALLY blink my eyes now or not. Different kinds of ideas about doing this exercise "It's so hard, I can never do this", "I have such a bad attention span - maybe I have some kind of ADD/ADHD", "Meditation is so much easier because I can keep my eyes closed". Funny thing is, after this exercise I kind of realized that the way I have been meditating for the last six years is more like tripping in the mind noise rather than looking at actual reality...

The experience in thought was real, well, in thought but not outside that, no way. This thought noise is just a layer that is put on the actual experience in reality and even seems to distort it. There is a weird relationship between the thought experience and real experience in that the thought has a kind of loose referential relationship to what´s experienced but it´s definately not real in the same sense as actual reality.

Did you experience reality happening in a different way than what was thought?

Well reality was just the awereness of what is - the awareness of awareness moving through the stimuli - and 99% of the thoughts passing through this exercise had nothing to do with it. The remaining 1% of the thoughts had a loose referential relationship with these stimuli but really had nothing to do with reality.

Can thoughts avoid things from happening? What exactly?

Thoughts can´t stop anything from happening. If "I" am crossing a street on a green light, think that I should check first if there are cars coming and look left to see a car running red lights and realize that if "I" wouldn´t have looked, I can have a thought that "Wow it´s lucky that I was always taught to look left first before crossing a street and got the idea to look left first", it's not the thought that prevented an accident but the fact that "I" looked.

Can an agent be experienced? If yes, in what form? What proves the existance of the agent?

An agent can only experienced in thought and there as a form of a thought that has some kind of an "I-experience" attached to it. There also seems to be an illusion of agent that functions as "a medium" between thought realm and reality, as I've written many times before. The relationship between thoughts and reality - i.e. that not every idea is acted upon - seems to indicate to the presence of an agent, but no actual PROOF for the existance of this agent or the agent in thoughts can be found - it's just a weakish induction. If a thought occurs to "me" that I want to eat a banana but don't do it for whatever reason, maybe it's not that there was an "I" that decided not to act upon the thought but it was not acted upon because a banana was not eaten, there's no reason to explain via a theory of an agent.

Looking forward to know how did it go.

Thanks again for the great exercise and great pointers - this has been really eye opening as always! :)

[Canfora]

Hi Eerik! I'm too tired to look at your post with clarity at the moment but i have to say that i never thought that it was possible not to blink for 5 minutes. Amazing! I must be careful with what i ask you to do! :)

Can thoughts avoid things from happening? What exactly?

These questions were to be answered in regard of the exercise: what do you see happening?
Suggestions of things that can be looked at:
Can thoughts stop thoughts?
Can thoughts stop blinking?
Can thoughts stop breathing?
Can thoughts stop life from happening - the sounds, the sensations, the awareness of aliveness?
What do you find - doing the exercise! - that thoughts have the power to stop?

[E.Z.E]

Hi Eerik! I'm too tired to look at your post with clarity at the moment but i have to say that i never thought that it was possible not to blink for 5 minutes. Amazing! I must be careful with what i ask you to do! :)

Haha lol, don't worry, I wouldn't jump off a cliff if you'd ask me to! :D I'm sure it's not the healthiest thing for your eyes but an interesting experiment nonetheless.

I'll get back at your questions tomorrow, good night for now! :)

[Canfora]

Hi Eerik! Nice answers...
If you look what's here writing?
Can you see what is choosing what to say?

[E.Z.E]

Can thoughts avoid things from happening? What exactly?

These questions were to be answered in regard of the exercise: what do you see happening?
Suggestions of things that can be looked at:
Can thoughts stop thoughts?
Can thoughts stop blinking?
Can thoughts stop breathing?
Can thoughts stop life from happening - the sounds, the sensations, the awareness of aliveness?
What do you find - doing the exercise! - that thoughts have the power to stop?[/quote]

Thoughts can not stop any of these. Thoughts can´t really stop anything from happening - they are like a matrix of mind noise that isput on/forced upon flow that is happening in reality which sometimes creates an illusion that it would be somehow in charge of the flow or that it would have some control over the flow but when one looks closely at what is happening, it is just the flow of reality that actually is happening and this thought has no control over it.

What still puzzles me a bit is the fact that if I decide to move my hand, there is a thought about moving hand and then the hand moves but there closer I look at it, the more it seems like intricate illusion anyway. The THOUGHT is not what moves the hand, it is the movement of the hand that "moves the hand" or better yet, there is nobody/no entity moving the hand, the hand just moves. Again the illusion of the power of thoughts is very intricate and captivating but the more one looks at it, the more it shows its illusory quality.

[E.Z.E]

If you look what's here writing?
Can you see what is choosing what to say?

No I can't. If I'm not paying attention closely to what's happening in the reality, it seems that there is a thought that comes into action in writing so that the thoughts would be what chooses the words but when I look closer at it, the words are already there BEFORE the thought. I can't see anyone choosing the words - there are words that come from somewhere that manifest here on the screen through the keyboard but "I" can't find an agent doing it. The thought about someone doing this is - like I wrote earlier on something else - an agent that is stamped on the activity AFTER it has happened so that the words are already there before any thought of them, then comes a thought "I will write so and so" and then the words are on the screen but the words appear on the screen regardless of what that thought says about it.

I actually made an experiment writing what was above just staring at a harbour crane that I can see outside my window, giving it the fullest attention while I still writing so that there would be minimal thought noise writing all this and everything just turned up on the screen as it would normally do without the interference of thoughts.

From what is possible to see in the actual reality, there is nobody doing the writing - it's just writing doing the writing, with a persisent illusion of an agent in thoughts doing the writing stamped on it, but a false illusion that really can't stand the test of a close inspection at the actual reality.

[Canfora]

In case you're wondering, i'm not commenting your answers because i think you're doing a good job looking, although i still see a need to understand underlying your answers...

Just a reminder: don't think - don't analyse - don't guess. LOOK!

What still puzzles me a bit is the fact that if I decide to move my hand, there is a thought about moving hand and then the hand moves but there closer I look at it, the more it seems like intricate illusion anyway.

I have a suggestion. Look at this using other person as a mirror.
Your girlfriend, a stranger in the street (i did this with my dog!).

Do you see a self in them making the decision to do this or that?
Do they have any control about what's happening (even if they think they do)?
The way their body moves proves that there is a self there?

What can you see in them that proves that they really are a separated self?

Does looking at them make you see how the illusion is kept in place in you?

Looking forward to know what you will find!

[E.Z.E]

Just a reminder: don't think - don't analyse - don't guess. LOOK!

This is a very good reminder indeed! :) It is all just absurdly simple that it is easy to get tricked by the mind to believing that there would be somehow more to it but actually looking without anything else but always simply shoots these thought games down.

I have a suggestion. Look at this using other person as a mirror.
Your girlfriend, a stranger in the street (i did this with my dog!).

Do you see a self in them making the decision to do this or that?
Do they have any control about what's happening (even if they think they do)?
The way their body moves proves that there is a self there?

What can you see in them that proves that they really are a separated self?

Does looking at them make you see how the illusion is kept in place in you?

Looking forward to know what you will find!

I've been doing this now yesterday and today and what II've found is that what can be seen is just processes/flow/life/whateveryawannacallit happening, but an actual self or the proof if it just can't really be seen. It can be imagened and, boy, can it be a grand fictional story, but it just cannot be seen. Someone might do something and then afterwards say that "I did this" but it is just explaining a self afterwards to things where the self does not really exist - it's like whatever happens has to be explained with something. Also, someone might say that they plan on doing something and then "do it" but it's not the thought self that does it but it's the action that executes itself and the self is again added there but this time before that. Things happen by their own accord and then mentally and/or verbally a lot of fuss is added to the process to keep up the illusion of a self that would be behind this or that activity.

Listening to people and observing them, it seems that this self-game is a huge cosmical joke - a game that almost everyone is playing and a huge amount of verbal communication is based around playing this game of selves that cannot be found. Probably a big reason why this illusion is kept in place is social pressure - it's like everyone is forcing everyone else to play along, too.

As for what you said about the feeling of needing to understand underlying my answers - I understand what you mean fully and there has been that, but it seems that it's fading away. There's a funny fluctuation between staying in mind games and actually SEEING happening right now and if I drop into the self-game, I'll just focus on whatever is in actual reality like sounds, sensations and whatnot and it kind of interrupts the self-game. And the more the self-game is interrupted, it feels that the less there is a need to understand because there is nothing to understand or if there is, it can't be even grasped at with thinking because that just falls into illusion. It's truly strange how simple everything is but how complicated it all can be made within the thought illusion.

[Canfora]

Beautiful, thank you, i loved reading your words!

Let's do a reality check, i need to know where you are :)

Looking from here-now:

If you look at reality can you see a you?
If you look at thought content, can you see a you?
Is a you living your life or there is just life effortlessly happening?

What's here looking at the screen and writing?

Are you 100% sure that the self is an illusion? If not, what's keeping the illusion in place?

[E.Z.E]

Beautiful, thank you, i loved reading your words!

Thank YOU for all your help so far - that is what has helped "me" to see through all this and it's truly a beautiful, wonderful experience beyond words! :)

Let's do a reality check, i need to know where you are :)

Excellent, here goes!

Looking from here-now:

If you look at reality can you see a you?

In reality, absolutely no. There is no me and there never was - it is a very deep rooted illusion that is caused by looking at everything else except actual reality.

If you look at thought content, can you see a you?

There is still a lingering illusion of a "me" in thought content which is sometimes ever so captivating with it's stories, needs and pushing away and pulling towards different parts of reality, but it has never been as transparent as it is now. Simple focusing on reality - seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling and just LOOKING creates a gap in its storyline. Furthermore, it seems that this "thought-me" does not have a center like it used to have, it's just a bunch of scattered thoughts that have an "I-label".

Is a you living your life or there is just life effortlessly happening?

Most of the time, there is life effortlessly happening. Sometimes the illusion of the me in thoughts comes through and thinks it's in charge and there seems to be a fluctuation between looking and lapses in looking, but like "I" wrote above, the lapses are interrupted by looking. It has been a quiet few days now so it will be interesting to see if it will have more leverage to come through in more stressful situations, but seeing through it is so easy now that it doesn't pose worries.

What's here looking at the screen and writing?

It's just life/flow/emptiness/processes unfolding - looking is looking and writing is writing.

Are you 100% sure that the self is an illusion? If not, what's keeping the illusion in place?

110% sure! When we started, the illusion of a self kept itself present by a strong argument that perhaps there is someplace where it dwells that was not seen through but the very idea of there being SOMETHING MORE to seeing, the need to understand something more than actually seeing, strongly kept it in place, but whatever is added to seeing is just an illusion and this illusion is where the illusionary sense of a self hides and it has nothing to do with reality. Furthermore, the thought that there would be a need for an agent to control thought processes and the fear of what happens if this illusion is abandoned is nothing but a huge illusion in itself since there was no real acting agent in the first place!

[Canfora]

Picture your guide making a happy, happy dance!

It has been a quiet few days now so it will be interesting to see if it will have more leverage to come through in more stressful situations, but seeing through it is so easy now that it doesn't pose worries.

Good to know but the truth - and i'm talking from experience - is that there is no way to know how this seeing will keep unfolding. It's possible that you will see changes happening that you never expected!

Can you please answer the questions below? That will tell me if we still need to look at something.

There is no rush - you can answer them all at once or one or two at a time, what feels best to you.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[E.Z.E]

Picture your guide making a happy, happy dance!

And you can imagine me joining the dance, too! :)

Can you please answer the questions below? That will tell me if we still need to look at something.

Glad to answer them as always.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't and there never was. Thoughts with an "I-label" or "I-content" do exist and are especially good at cheating one to believe in the existence of a separate self, but it is real only in thought realm and nowhere else. The "agent self" I have talked about earlier is a form of I-labeled thoughts that grabs an action within the flow of life, assigning a self to the action before or after the action, but it is not reality either.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

From what I have seen looking at the reality, the fictional self is a bundle of passing thoughts, memories and projections to future or past that dwells within the realm of thoughts. This realm of thoughts creates and superimposes a kind of reality matrix on actual reality and the interaction between the illusionary self and this fictional reality create a very convincing feeling of a separate self, but it is only thought fiction and therefore just can not stand the test of actual reality being observed. This separate self pulls towards and pushes away aspects of reality and creates a division in the mind between subject and object. It is also very convincing because it can create emotional reactions and content, making itself SEEM very real because it can be felt within the body.

The illusion of separate self might decide or remember from the past that it likes apples and it is hungry so it wants to go to the kitchen to pick up an apple and it attributes this all to a me that is hungry, likes apples and went to pick an apple from the kitchen when in actual reality there was only a flow of life within awareness - the picking up of an apple, the eating of it and so on without a subject or an object. This illusion moves with awareness where awareness goes and when in reality there is awareness of movement in a finger, the illusion of a self places quickly an "I decided to move my finger"-label to the action to maintain the illusion of a separate entity being in control of the activity, even though at the same time this thought self was completely unaware of other movement happening in the body.

Culture and human interaction is so strongly based on thought content that it necessarily gives birth to this illusion: we are taught from a kid that we have a name, we have preferences and dislikes over parts of reality and that we are separate agents that have to have a control over reality. It is easy to see how humans often behave in a way that can be best described as a "man versus nature" course of action, but the truth is that many parts of human culture, interaction, education and so in is in fact best described as man versus reality. As soon as we learn that we are separate entities from others, we have our names, our individual looks and tastes, this illusion of a self within the realm of thoughts starts to invade the realm of thoughts and to create a huge amount of buffers between the separate self and reality that work on to keep this illusion in place. Nothing is enough for it, it always wants more and more and more and to grow and reality seems to be its worst enemy.

The illusionary self is very skillful in keeping itself alive - fear seems to be its biggest weapon in keeping itself alive. There's the fear of dying, fear of going insane, fear of loosing control, fear of people not liking you and so on ad infinitum. These fears seem very necessary and in fact the fear itself might be real, but nothing behind it is real as it works on to protect an illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Well, like you said when we started - it's nothing one would expect it to be. It seems like a big cosmic joke, like really, THIS is it? But then again, it is intuitively so clear at the same time. In fact, I believe that I have "seen" it in a similar fashion some years back for a few weeks, but the illusionary self tricked itself very easily back into the picture by forcing a "it really can't be as simple as this, you know"-thought in my head somewhere. It had me convinced that there had to be the fireworks, angels, experiences of past lives, psychic abilities through the roof, astral visits and so on and if there weren't, then that's not it - there's still something more to experience to see through the illusion. The illusion of a self really thrived on "seeking", but once the "k" was removed from the verb, it just kind of had come out of hiding.

There is a lot of spaciousness in most of my feelings, actions and sensory experiences during the day. Everything seems to be in a flow and I can sit on my balcony, looking outside at the scenery and enjoying the beauty of it all without thinking that there's something I am not seeing in it. Seeing is seeing what it's seeing, no need to be more complicated then that.

The biggest difference is that there is really no need to seek anything spiritually. I might meditate but it's not to gain anything, it's just a relaxed way of looking at reality or experiencing reality. I could go and pick up a spiritual book and enjoy it's content but it's not to gain anything, just to read something pleasant that is very different from the compulsive need to read tens of books a month in order to understand what it's all about that has haunted me the last few years. I also feel that all the things that were said by different people and teachers in the spiritual field about oneness and nonduality that really have troubled me ("Oh boy, I can somehow conceptually understand this but what does this really mean?") now, for the first time, make sense to me.

This illusion of a self seems to oscillate back and forth - the illusionary reality matrix it has created is sometimes more present then at other times, but a gap is created to it as soon as awareness goes to something in the actual reality like sounds or seeing and so on. It is especially strong when someone else forces a me towards my "illusionary self" or towards the self that they attribute to "me". Like, for example, if someone would comment on why I did this or why I said that, it just seems kind of strange to explain motivations , likes or dislikes of my "self" when I know there isn't one, but I guess that's just how it goes - everyone plays the self game and living with people, I have to participate in it even though the self-role seems more and more alien. But I don't mean to say that I would have a cynical attitude towards people haunted by this game, on the contrary, now more than ever I feel very strong compassion towards everyone around me and can tune in with love in my interactions between people.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was a string of events, but it really started with you asking me to look and not look with my thoughts. That's the first time I think I understood what can be described as a flow of life happening without an agent, like what I means to just look and not look with thinking. On the same day, discussing with my girlfriend about my depression, she made the point the maybe I am not depressed but rather just I have some kind of a mild attention deficit. That seemed to make sense and when I looked at it with just looking and not looking with thoughts, what I saw was not attention deficit but an illusionary self that makes a way into reality and disrupts the flow of life by forcing a suffering agent on things happening on their own accord.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Well, in thoughts this does happen, but in reality no. This morning, "I" decided to make a list that I need to work on a translation, go jogging, play bass and rehearse a play today. These things have taken place today, but "I" have not done any of them. There has been translation happening, there has been jogging, playing bass and rehearsing the play script but there is no agent there. The thought in the morning did not make this happen, they happened because the action or flow happened.

6) Anything to add?

Just something concerning what you wrote earlier in your message:

Good to know but the truth - and i'm talking from experience - is that there is no way to know how this seeing will keep unfolding. It's possible that you will see changes happening that you never expected!

After reading this, a strong illusion of "self needing to seek" kind of rose from the bushes - what happened was that because what has changed so far during the last few days is so little, like actually nothing has changed, but then almost everything has changed. This "seeking self" tried to convince "me" that because there has not been big changes yet, maybe this isn't it and maybe there is still more illusion of self to see. I just looked at reality as a reaction to this and, seeing no self anywhere as expected, the feeling disappeared, but it was a funny experience - a self trying to convince nobody that there might still be a self somewhere that has not been seen. Do you think this is a reason to look more or are residual self-thoughts like to be expected and to be dealt with by looking at reality, as I did?

[Canfora]

Hi Eerik! Thank you for your answers (you're very good with words!).

You seem very clear to me, so i asked other guides to look at this thread and see if they have questions for you. That can take some time.

Do you think this is a reason to look more or are residual self-thoughts like to be expected and to be dealt with by looking at reality, as I did?

Yes, residual self-thoughts are to be expected. I still have them and i suppose they will always be here, like a radio in the background. Sometimes the sound of the radio seems stronger, sometimes weaker. What i do, when i see that i'm completly lost in the illusion of what the voice is saying is the same you did, i look and i came back to what's real. It takes practice :)

"nothing has changed, but then almost everything has changed" is also my experience - but without the belief in a self and with looking some things start to shift and change. Quite hard to explain, words/concepts don't help here. Here's what Ilona says about this in her blog, she explains this better than i could do http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/p/start-here.html:

"Step 7 - Falling

Right, this is when it gets interesting.

Since the core belief has been busted, there will be a lot of lost beliefs hanging. Imagine, it's like a computer system, if you delete some programs, there will be some files left behind that will slow down the performance, so you usually clean it up. Defragment the system, tune it up.

Knocking the core belief out is like a tsunami to your system. It leaves a lot of rubble behind, lot of corpses to take care of. So what you want to do here is clarify and clarify, and clarify more. Keep an eye on the truth, let the beliefs surface. They will come up one by one ready to be released. Don’t fight them and hold on to nothing. As soon as you start holding on to belief, idea, you get stuck. To unstuck, just let it all fall of. I call this stage “Falling” as all that is untrue, falls away, all that it is true, falls into place.

Some say it takes around a couple of months to settle in , but everyone is different. So there is no guarantee how long it will take for your system to reboot and re-balance. Faith in truth is your friend. Desire to get the last lie of your system is another friend as well as readiness to let go of everything that does not serve anymore. Doubt your precious beliefs and keep investigating. This is only a beginning, not an end. It is not a gate to happy ever after, it's a tiny first step, a very important one, but not final one, by any means.

Look close at the most precious beliefs that are close to the heart, in no touch zone. They are the ones that you really want to inspect up close. You will recognize them by feeling resistance. Follow resistance. It is here to let you know that another bit of lie is sitting somewhere waiting to be noticed.

When the sticking point is removed life becomes easier, it has got a real sense of freedom, appreciation, effortlessness, trust and awe. There is freedom in every situation. There is freedom to express without feelings of guilt fear, being wrong. Freedom is not from negative situation, but within the situations. Life is no longer looked at through the lens of “me”. It’s wide open, ready to be explored. It is an end to seeking, but not an end to exploring."

[E.Z.E]

Hi Eerik! Thank you for your answers (you're very good with words!).

You seem very clear to me, so i asked other guides to look at this thread and see if they have questions for you. That can take some time.

Yes, residual self-thoughts are to be expected. I still have them and i suppose they will always be here, like a radio in the background. Sometimes the sound of the radio seems stronger, sometimes weaker. What i do, when i see that i'm completly lost in the illusion of what the voice is saying is the same you did, i look and i came back to what's real. It takes practice :)

"nothing has changed, but then almost everything has changed" is also my experience - but without the belief in a self and with looking some things start to shift and change. Quite hard to explain, words/concepts don't help here. Here's what Ilona says about this in her blog, she explains this better than i could do.

Hey again! :)

Happy to hear this all - so I figured that these residual self-thoughts would be a part of the experience even afterwards. Like we already established earlier in our conversation, it's not about thought control in any way.

Thanks for the text from the blog - it is very helpful and relevant stuff at this point. One question: have you taken a systematic approach to looking at reality after the fall of the belief in self or have you just looked at reality in whatever way it has presented itself?

Looking forward to hearing what the other guides say about our dialogue and I'm happy to answer any questions that might come about. Anyway, already at this point, I'd like to give a huge thanks to you for all your help! :) I am thankful beyond words - or maybe it's better to say that the feeling of thankfullness truly encompasses the experience of reality at the moment beoynd words, but I'm sure you know what it is that's trying to come through behind these inadequate words! ;)