Seeking a Guide

[Nolamoony]

Hi,

Looking for a guide. Is anyone available?

Thanks,
Joe

[goneforgood]

Hi Joe,

I am happy to guide you.

Where are you at with things? Have you done much reading on this site?

What brings you here and what do you hope will happen when you pass through the gate?

Robin

[Nolamoony]

Hi Robin,

I've read a good amount of the site. My basic background: I was into philosophy and "spiritual" things in college, eventually went out in the woods and had a psychedelic experience when I was 20. Very powerful insight, thought I was going to live happily ever after afterwards. It went away, and I've spent the past 6 years looking for that understanding.

I want to understand what all those old Zen masters and so on were saying, and be able to really live my life without constant self-consciousness and ruminating.

I don't know what I'm expecting as far as the gate goes. My expectations with some big Realization experience are all colored by the experience I had when I was 20--at peace with everything, perceiving things directly, able to exist fluidly and without a problem in life and adapt to whatever is happening without difficulty--sort of like feeling reality is a big lucid dream that is ultimately harmless.

But exploring some of the stuff on this site, I've felt a little loosening and OK-ness, not as big a deal. Expecting to be able to 'go with the flow' more, or perceive things in a new way.

Thanks,
Joe

[goneforgood]

Thankyou Joe.

Your experience in the wood was temporary. Life is replete with temporary. All is always in constant movement and change. That experience is now just a memory in thought. See if you can leave it aside now, and bring yourself into the here and now, where what is REAL is.

LU is not about understanding. That’s the mind. It’s about experiencing – Directly Experiencing (DE) the fact that a separate, individual “you” does not exist.

My job here is to point to your Direct Experience. DE is seeing, hearing, feeling and sensing, touching and tasting what is real in the present moment. DE also includes the experience of thought, but not the content of thought. It is up to you to look, deeply and intensely, and report back to me with 100% honesty what you find. The better you are able to describe your experience to me, the better I can see what you see, and point where next to look. Please avoid to the best of your ability philosophising, conceptualising and speculating. Let go of everything you have read and learned, and look for yourself, with new fresh eyes.

Before we go further:
Have you read, and do you agree with the Disclaimer on our home page?
Can you post at least once a day (this keeps a good momentum up that greatly assists the enquiry)?

OK!

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor will there ever be?

What does the word “I” or “me” point to, here and now? When you say “I”, what does that refer to in DE? Please describe in detail. Does it have a shape, a size, a quality?


With Love, Robin

[Nolamoony]

Thanks.

I've read the disclaimer and it sounds good. I can post daily, and will let you know if for some reason I can't.

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor will there ever be?

1. A few things, depending on when I call it up:
-Sometimes a sense of loosening, like there is less responsibility for thoughts. So when a set of thoughts come along that would usually cause me to tense up and berate myself, I can just leave it be. Then it seems like all these problems I'm experiencing would be a lot less difficult if they could just do their thing automatically.
-Big time fear and clinging. Somewhat like a fear of death. Avoidance of the fact by any means. Like it would require a total admission of failure and misplaced attention for my entire life.
-It doesn't make sense. Like a "DOES NOT COMPUTE" sign flashes in my mind. How do things happen, then? What is this body through which things are being experienced? If I'm not a self, how does anything make sense at all?
-Yeah, obviously. I look for "the self," I can't find it. So it's a clean assertion of fact. Not a big deal.

What does the word “I” or “me” point to, here and now? When you say “I”, what does that refer to in DE? Please describe in detail. Does it have a shape, a size, a quality?

Without describing the content of thought... I don't know. I can't find an I. Thoughts come up that start with "I...". There's also a sense of this body being guided or controlled by something. Feels like "the thing that directs the body (sometimes)." But really, no pointing to any physical location or object. A pattern of thoughts, or a kind of overlay superimposed on physical reality. None of these things seem to REALLY exist though. Everything's hazy, though. The moment I try to look for the I, it disappears.

[goneforgood]

Lovely, Joe. Nice looking.

I look for "the self," I can't find it. So it's a clean assertion of fact. Not a big deal.

I

I can't find an I. Thoughts come up that start with "I...".

The moment I try to look for the I, it disappears.

I can’t be found because it doesn’t exist. It is only thinking that says it must be otherwise. Check this out. Yes, something happens, and thought says “I did it”, “I don’t like it”, "I want…" "I… " or “It happened to ME”, “..hurt me” …… But when you look, where is this I?.

And, as you say, when you believe the I thought, as soon at you look for it, it disappears. There is a wonderful LU quote that says (and I may have it slightly wrong without looking it up) "You are the hypothesis that cannot bear investigation."

-Sometimes a sense of loosening, like there is less responsibility for thoughts.

ARE you responsible for the content of thoughts as they come and go? Do you know what your next thought is going to be? Do you have any control whatsoever? If you had a choice, wouldn’t you only have happy thoughts? I would! Tell me, which thoughts exactly do you have responsibility for or control over?

Big time fear and clinging. Somewhat like a fear of death. Avoidance of the fact by any means. Like it would require a total admission of failure and misplaced attention for my entire life.

I love this fear. It’s so irrational!
If you don’t exist, then who is there to fail? You were never there in the first place. Your life turned out exactly this way despite you not being in it. There is no-one to be embarrassed, ashamed, look a fool…….. You THOUGHT you existed. But you never did. Does it really change anything? Really look this fear in the face. What is there to protect? Ask it. Find out.

When you learned that Santa was a lie, did it really change anything, other than your thoughts about it? Was anything real lost? If I asked you to go find Santa now, you wouldn’t even bother getting up out of your chair, because you KNOW he doesn’t exist.

It is the same with self. No matter how many times you look, it is not there. Keep looking. See this for yourself.

PS: Great to see you've mastered the quote function.

[goneforgood]

How are you going Joe?

I hope everything is well with you.

I am here when you are ready.

Love
Robin

[Nolamoony]

Hey Robin,

Sorry--no Wifi at the hotel I was in last night.

I'm still looking. What am I missing?

Anxious thoughts, constant thinking, whatever this mind is, even if it lacks a self it seems it is still bugging itself by asking, in every moment almost, "What are you going to do? Find out there is no self! Be calm! [etc etc]"

Don't know what's going on, really. That's where the inquiry is at right now.

Thanks,
Joe

[goneforgood]

Hi Joe, Good to hear from you.

You sound a little impatient with yourself. Are you expecting to have "got it" already? Give yourself some slack, and let's deal with one thing at a time.

So, fear is here. Very good. It has something to tell you. Fear is always about the future, what might happen, if...., when....., etc.

Here is a wonderful reality check to use when fear comes up:
Ask yourself “Apart from my thoughts and feelings about it, am I OK?”
Then notice… are you breathing, is your body all in one piece, are you sitting down/standing up…? Look around you and see where you are, what is there with you. Just notice everything as it is. Is everything OK?
When you see that, in fact, you are OK, right here, right now, you then have some “breathing space” to investigate the fear and see what it is here to show you.

Now do this exercise. Take your time with it and let me know what arises.

Bring all closer. If there is fear, focus on fear.
Notice, that it's protection mechanism. The fear itself is like a door, it holds you from looking behind the door. But it's just fear. It’s ok for it to be here, it is only doing it’s job. Just let it be there, acknowledge its presence with respect and gratitude, check where it feels physically in the body. Notice sensation.

What is fear itself?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What is it that feels threatened?

Ask it to reveal why it’s here, what it is trying to tell you, ask the fear to share it’s wisdom.
If there is no self, then there is nothing that needs to be protected, right?
Honor the feeling. Bow to it, thank it for doing it’s job. Notice, it is here to protect, it's a friend. Fear is really love in disguise. It is only showing you where to look, the dark areas.

Now look behind it.
Is there anything behind the fear?
if so, what? And what is behind that?

( note that the silence is not the absence of answer, it is the answer)


With Love,
Robin

[goneforgood]

Hi Joe,
How's it going?
It is perfectly alright if you do not wish to continue this enquiry. Yet see if you can recognise that whatever your mind is saying, it's just story - ALL of it. Life is just this, right now. That is all. No labels, no complexity.
Let me know where you're at, and we can either talk further...or not, for now.
With Love, Robin

[Nolamoony]

Hi Robin,

I do want to continue! I needed some time to look into what you were saying--I've been on the trail, things are shifting, loosening up... I just wanted to continue to investigate before reporting back. It has already been a great help.

I think a large problem I've had is looking at "mind is making a story, if you see through the story you are able to exist in a kind of perfect state of enlightenment" as... well, as not a story. Investigating more, I'm seeing that seeing beyond the stories is not a matter of acheiving something, but more simple and, in the context of those expectations, a funny and silly sort of disappointment.

The fear has still been around. Considering it a friend really shifted the attitude. It's only because it loves me and wants to care for me that that fear shows up--it's not some sign of weakness in myself.

Lately things have been feeling strange. "Looking into thoughts" feels like a thought, as if there's no separation between the things I usually consider "thoughts" and the kind of directives I give myself mentally to investigate the thoughts. They're one process. I went for a walk today and everything felt sort of automatic--all the same thoughts, but weirdly flowing around in and of themselves.

That's where I am right now. The investigation feels like it has been going well. It has only taken me time to respond because I've really been thinking of what was worth saying and waiting until I wrapped my mind around what I was looking into before I spoke. I will get back to posting daily and definitely want to continue.

Thank you! Your attitude has helped me more than you know.

Where do you recommend looking next?

[goneforgood]

So good to hear from you Joe, and of your enthusiasm to continue.

I think a large problem I've had is looking at "mind is making a story, if you see through the story you are able to exist in a kind of perfect state of enlightenment"

…….whatever THAT is! Good that you recognise this is an expectation, a belief, and can now see past it.

Investigating more, I'm seeing that seeing beyond the stories is not a matter of acheiving something, but more simple and, in the context of those expectations, a funny and silly sort of disappointment.

And what relief, hey? There’s no hierarchy of achievement here, because the very entity that thinks it will have to work hard to get a medal does not exist.

Lately things have been feeling strange. "Looking into thoughts" feels like a thought, as if there's no separation between the things I usually consider "thoughts" and the kind of directives I give myself mentally to investigate the thoughts. They're one process.

I don’t quite understand what you are saying here. Does “looking into thoughts” mean looking into the content of thought or investigating what thought is? Your directives to yourself are also just thought. Is that what you mean by “they’re one process”? Is thought a process? How does it work?

It has only taken me time to respond because I've really been thinking of what was worth saying and waiting until I wrapped my mind around what I was looking into before I spoke.

You are very easy to read, and I appreciate the care you take.

Where do you recommend looking next?

You haven't done the questions on fear. Here they are again:
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What is it that feels threatened?

Ask it to reveal why it’s here, what it is trying to tell you, ask the fear to share its wisdom.
If there is no self, then there is nothing that needs to be protected, right?
Is there anything behind the fear?
if so, what? And what is behind that?

With Love, Robin

[Nolamoony]

My silence is not the absence of an answer. :)

Thank you for your help, Robin.

[goneforgood]

It is the answer…..for now.

Is silence your experience, though, or are thoughts running the show?

As you are reading these words, what is your actual physical experience, in your body? What sensations are there? Can you describe them to me?

With Love