Locustafiera requesting guide

[Hannah B-T]

Hey. Yes things went well -thanks for your patience.
Some lovely reports.

I may be picking up things here that have resolved themselves but i'd like to check-

And there is also a suspicion that the self could actually be a danger to the body. It often feels like a danger. And otherwise why would there be thinking and questioning about the self being in this way, but I guess that's conceptual thinking

Can this 'self' that could do this be found?

What is 'trying to get it right'? Yearning for the truth in part, wanting to demonstrate that the self is smart too.

Again, what is this self that wants to be 'smart'?

What is 'body' in direct experience? Sensation

All good to this point ;)

Feeling of weight, density and such things

Hmmm- I can't feel the weight or density of the body...would have to get on scales to work that out conceptually!
Does this indicate there is still perception of a 'centre' to experience/awareness? -This is related to this..

Awareness seems less concentrated here, and more dissipated outward.

Just posting to report that 'I' feels more like batman nowadays. It's quite funny. Now seeing these fictional characters everywhere. It explains so much - the fundamental absurdity of human life. All this ridiculous focus on Me and My Stuff - My responsibilities, My faults, My development. Nothing can be helped! This has always been known deep down!

Let's cut to brass tacks-

Is the illusion of a separate entity -'self'/ 'me' /'i' that actually exists seen through?

When thoughts referring to 'i/me/mine' come up now, what happens?

[Locustafiera]

Can this self that could do this be found.
Meant to write about the belief in self. The self can truly not be found in direct experience.

What is this self that wants to be smart?
Again, it can't be found in direct experience, but there is still a desire to demonstrate 'intelligence' sometimes, but far less, and it's often noticed and fizzles.

Yes there is definitely still perception of 'centre' to experience or awareness.

The illusion of a separate entity of self is seen through, but not consistently real. Sometimes it seems very real but sometimes it is almost forgotten, and I feel pretty much as before.

When thoughts of i/me/mine come up, yesterday they were clocked as fiction. Today they have been bothersome. Feels like there is more to do.

Im wondering if I can expect to get back to the point when it first seemed 'I' was through, or if my Buddhist friend was right. Feeling a little disheartened.

[Hannah B-T]

Yes there is definitely still perception of 'centre' to experience or awareness

Describe how that is being perceived right now.
Does that indicate a self inhabiting the body?

The illusion of a separate entity of self is seen through, but not consistently real. Sometimes it seems very real but sometimes it is almost forgotten, and I feel pretty much as before.

When thoughts of i/me/mine come up, yesterday they were clocked as fiction. Today they have been bothersome. Feels like there is more to do.

This seeing is the beginning of an unfolding...we never said otherwise. Read the disclaimer again!
These thoughts come up here still, 9 months on. They arise, are looked at or not, 'clocked' as fiction or not, and pass through...all i can say is that process here seems to have become more natural and default, and it's very clear now there is no-one doing that, no matter what the thoughts say.

What would 'do' anything with these thoughts?
Is anything controlling or thinking the thoughts? Take another look at that.

I'm still hearing an expectation here about what should be happening with these thoughts. Give me more on this.

I'm wondering if I can expect to get back to the point when it first seemed 'I' was through

The mind can expect anything it likes. I can expect to win the lottery next week. Doesn't mean that makes it any more likely to occur!
That experience is now just a memory, a fantasy thought about a non-existent past.

The question isn't 'has awakening happened?' the only relevant question is 'is there clarity right now?'

Because THIS, right now, is ALL THERE IS.

Remember, society and communication is the illusion writ large. All day everyday a big thought soup telling endless variations of the story of 'i/me/mine' as if it were 100% cast iron reality!
But just because there's a man dressed as Santa standing in the room 24/7, and everyone is going 'oh look there's Santa', does that mean Santa really exists?

[Locustafiera]

Hi Hannah.

How is that centre being perceived right now?

At first: Seems to be an anxiety inside the body. A tenderness in the centre of the torso and a contraction, a clenching, or tightness in the head between the cheekbones.
Does it indicate a self?
Anxiety feels very 'self' centred. yes it seems to. Self feels very real at these times, and there is a very clear feeling of separateness of the body. There's also a frustration, an impatience, an urge to smash this effing device whenever the me creature fat fingers the wrong key.
The sense of self still seems to be here most of the time. Its frustrating, because it feels like I have to go through it again and again, working through the logic, thinking from the start each time. Knowing only happens as a result of thinking through it. Of course you will say 'don't think, look'. Look with what? Awareness? Is it looking or is it thinking?
Then the thought arises 'there's nothing that can be done about any of this'. Except to just live, no trying, no fighting, no striving. Then there is some relaxing of the tension.

There is more investigation to do into choice. There isn't total conviction about the illusion of choice. There's guilt that feels personal; 'I' make poor decisions, bad choices. Guilt or shame about the inadequacy of those choices.

Expectation about what should be happening with these thoughts about I - when thoughts occur about the fictitious Andrew they will not 'hurt'. They will be thoughts about something that doesn't exist, and will therefore be benignly about 'him' or 'it' not 'me'. That's the expectation.

[Hannah B-T]

At first: Seems to be an anxiety inside the body. A tenderness in the centre of the torso and a contraction, a clenching, or tightness in the head between the cheekbones.

ok, so this is a description of a particular set of sensations...

Anxiety feels very 'self' centred.

No...
'anxiety' is a label put on to these sensations. can you see that?
Then 'self centered' is another label put onto the 'anxiety' label...
thoughts about thoughts about thoughts...

what is it in the raw sensations before labelling that actually indicates a self is present?
What if those sensations were labelled 'indigestion' and 'headache'. What's the difference? Does it matter which label is applied?

there is a very clear feeling of separateness of the body

Well.. go back and do the feeling exercises again...and check out this feeling of separateness in direct experience. Does it stand up to real scrutiny? Ever?

an urge to smash this effing device whenever the me creature fat fingers the wrong key

'me creature' ??!
Give me a break!
is there anyone typing the wrong key?
Andrew?
a 'me creature'?
whatever label is used....
Is there? just LOOK!

Its frustrating, because it feels like I have to go through it again and again, working through the logic, thinking from the start each time. Knowing only happens as a result of thinking through it

...if you're looking for truth in thinking, how is it truer than any other thought?
Can the evidence of the senses be accepted, over the content of thoughts spinning stories?

Look with what? Awareness?

Who cares?
If i asked you to find a set of keys in the room you were in, or the mobile in your bag, would it be necessary to ponder what was doing the looking to find the keys?

Frustration is a good sign!
Honestly.
Why wouldn't it be frustrating to keep looking for something that doesn't exist? If you went on a quest all over the world for a unicorn...how would that feel?

Then the thought arises 'there's nothing that can be done about any of this'. Except to just live, no trying, no fighting, no striving. Then there is some relaxing of the tension.

There is actually nothing that is, or could be trying, fighting or striving. there never was. Is that true? If it is- How ironic is that?

There is more investigation to do into choice. There isn't total conviction about the illusion of choice. There's guilt that feels personal; 'I' make poor decisions, bad choices. Guilt or shame about the inadequacy of those choices.

What is this guilt made of? Deconstruct it. Look behind it. What is feeling guilty? Or is there just a story about guilt playing, with some sensations going on?

Great, let's look at choice again. The above is specifically about choices made in the past. In memory. So look at memory thoughts.
Are the contents of memories real?
Is there an Andrew appearing in the memory?
Is he made of words, or pictures?
Now imagine batman...
How are the memory Andrew, and the memory batman different?
What can that memory thought affect or do?

As a matter of fact...what can a thought do?

when thoughts occur about the fictitious Andrew they will not 'hurt'.

How are they 'hurting' right now?
What is getting hurt?
What could ever get hurt?
By what?

What is there to protect here?

[Locustafiera]

---Anxiety is a label....can you see that?

I can think it later, but when the anxiety is there I cannot see it, I cannot perceive it as a label.

There have been times recently when I would usually feel anxiety, and didn't, due to perception of 'me' as a fictional, but in those cases I'm not sure the raw sensations were there at all. Maybe they were. I'll look next time.

What is it in the raw sensations before labelling that actually indicates a self is present?

In the raw sensation, i'm not sure there's anything that indicates a self. In the absence of perspective at the time, I didn't look. It's the sense of the body being very separate, distinct, alone, blinkered, hobbled. Focus is very narrow and centred. These may not be raw sensations, but that's the best I can do until it happens again and I can look.

Does it matter which label is applied?

If it were just a label, no. But i see that the anxiety feels like 'my' responsibility. A self inflicted problem that I should be able to conquer. A failing, a frailty. There is no sense that I am responsible for indigestion or headache. It strikes me however that this is irrational. I see others who in perhaps similar situations blame it on 'anxiety attacks' over which they have no control. maybe they are more right about that than I am.

Go back to the feeling exercises.

Doing it already.
When I do, I can 'see', perceive me as intimately connected via air, and via light, heat, gravity etc. Not separate. Utterly connected, impersonally, totally dependent, made of it, remade of it, making it, in it, of it. Walked home in the wind and the rain with it thrilling through me.

Give me a break...

Ha, yes you're so right. Thank you for the reminder. There is seeing of icons beneath a smooth clear surface and of a thumb dancing over the surface, a light brief repeating touching sensation in the in the tip of the thumb..... The meaning of the resulting text is not real. It is thought, model, pattern.

What is the guilt made of?
Yes it is a story. It could easily be a different, less painful story. Still a story.

Are the contents of memories real?
No, they are stories.

Is there an Andrew appearing in the memories?

Kind of, a vague, shadowy Andrew.

What's he made of?

Finding it hard to see that, finding it hard to remember the memories, in a good way, now. There's only a memory of a memory....

The memory thoughts don't exist outside the present of course. There is only memory thinking happening right now. Some story being made up right now. About an imagined entity.

Nothing to hurt, nothing to be hurt by.

Good questions.

[Hannah B-T]

In the raw sensation, i'm not sure there's anything that indicates a self

Keep looking at this until it's clear.

In the absence of perspective at the time, I didn't look

If this can be looked into whilst that experience is actually occuring, this may clarify.

But i see that the anxiety feels like 'my' responsibility. A self inflicted problem that I should be able to conquer. A failing, a frailty.

This is simply a story about control. an 'i' that can conquer and control life. An 'i' that can fail.
But...
Look again, Is there a 'controller'? Where is it? What is it made of? What could or does it control?
Thoughts?
Bodily movement?
A slice of life labelled 'mine'?
Is that how it is?

When I do, I can 'see', perceive me as intimately connected via air, and via light, heat, gravity etc. Not separate. Utterly connected, impersonally, totally dependent, made of it, remade of it, making it, in it, of it. Walked home in the wind and the rain with it thrilling through me.

Sounds great!
But hmm...Connected still implies 2 things with a connection...
Or in that moment is it truer to say there was just one seamless experience...no 'me', no 'wind', no 'rain'.
Just experiencing... life...this...words can't go there but can you see what's being pointed at?

so how is it not the same as that right now?

The memory thoughts don't exist outside the present of course. There is only memory thinking happening right now. Some story being made up right now. About an imagined entity.

Nothing to hurt, nothing to be hurt by.

YES! :)

[Locustafiera]

Hi Hannah,
I have been offline for a while, on a long haul flight. Where I am it is not so easy to get online, so contact will be a bit sporadic until I get back to the UK week beginning Jan 6th.

[Hannah B-T]

ok...i'll keep an eye out for any reports. i'll be here :)
Have a great holiday time.

[Locustafiera]

Anxiety - just a story about control.
Look again. Is there a controller? Where is it? What is it made of? What could or does it control? Thoughts? Bodily movement? A slice of life labelled mine? Is that how it is?

Sometimes this is seen very clearly. At one point this morning it seemed ridiculous to have ever believed that all these people were walking around with a little self inside them.
There is a remnant of doubt about control though. I just can't quite believe there is NO choosing or decision making at all, although I concede on another level that it must be so as anything else draws such blurry lines it just cant be the Truth. How did I become conditioned to write on this thread? Was I conditioned to meditate? Is 'trying' an illusion? What can I do to look into this?
Maybe I'm over thinking this. It's not that choices are not made, just that they are not made by a self, because there isn't one. There's confusion here obviously.

Is it truer to say there was just one seamless experience? No wind, no rain, no me.

Yes, it's a good description, although there is hesitation about the 'no me' part. ME quite enjoyed it.

How is it not the same as that right now now?

There's a drag, the self consciousness of ME,I, creating a separation of this body and mind from its environment.

[Hannah B-T]

At one point this morning it seemed ridiculous to have ever believed that all these people were walking around with a little self inside them

Don't take anything on as a new belief. If, at ANY moment, if it seems that they do...look again if that's really how it is.

How did I become conditioned to write on this thread? Was I conditioned to meditate? Is 'trying' an illusion? What can I do to look into this?

conditionality is beyond the scope of this thread, but some key questions here:

Just because things seem to get done, does it ever mean there's an 'i' there doing it?

Just because choices seem to get made, does it ever mean there's an 'i' choosing them?

Maybe I'm over thinking this. It's not that choices are not made, just that they are not made by a self, because there isn't one

Yes, there is intelligence chundering away. As you may have gathered by now, that doesn't help this inquiry!

that last phrase seemed pretty crystal clear to me.looks like you answered my above questions, but keep checking this :)

Yes, it's a good description, although there is hesitation about the 'no me' part. ME quite enjoyed it.

Hahaha! why is the ME here in capitals!?
What is this (obviously very emphatic and important ;) 'me' here that can enjoy life?
Describe how 'enjoyment' is experienced now, in detail.

There's a drag, the self consciousness of ME,I, creating a separation of this body and mind from its environment.

what is 'self conciousness'?
If there is no self, what is concious of what? It's time to deconstruct these sort of terms...
Actually describe what 'self conciousness' is experienced as in direct experience.

Is there separation?
Really?

[Locustafiera]

Thanks for your response. Will work through them and post replies tomorrow, ice storm permitting!

Smiling today :-)

Thanks for your continued help, have a great Christmas break.

[Locustafiera]

---Don't take anything in as a new belief...

Can you explain that please? What new beliefs does it look like I am taking on? When you write 'if at any time it looks like they do..' what or who is 'they'. And what could 'I' do about beliefs forming or not forming anyway?

---Why is the ME in capitals.

The caps are not for that kind of emphasis, but to denote the thing that has been outed as merely a belief but just will not damn well stop feeling real most of the time.

---What is this me that can enjoy life.
Describe how enjoyment is experienced now, in detail.

Yes, I get it, the me doesn't exist. The point is, it feels like it does. I'm tired of looking. It goes, it comes, it goes, it comes back.
Enjoyment is not being experienced now, as I write, so no detail from now is available. But I suspect it would be something like 'nice feelings'.

---What is self consciousness.
Actually describe what self consciousness is in direct experience.

It's a narrow inward focus, again a tenderness, or hollowness in the chest, a clenching tension in the head behind the eyes and nose, a feeling of separateness, aloneness of the body.

---If there is no self, what is conscious of what?

I can answer that from reason, but there's no point. The experience of self consciousness is this continuing, sometimes abating, operating assumption that there is a Me.

Is there separation?
Really?

I have to be honest. I can't pretend with this. There are times when attention, awareness, is not focused on a belief in Me, when focus is broad and free, and there is a richness and freedom and depth to experience, and all is tinged with a sensitive hue I can't describe. When thinking about 'me' as a distinct thing is absent, just not there, and even the attempted thought of 'me' just gets no traction. At these times there is no separation, and it's lovely.
But it doesn't last.
Maybe I shouldn't expect it to. But why keep going then? Yikes, this gate is elusive.
There are little realisations along the way. This evening it occurred to me that knowledge is just thought. Bare experience contains no knowledge. So many layers of interpretation. But some knowledge is demonstrably true isn't it, even without words?
This seems to be taking so long. Are you losing patience ?

[Hannah B-T]

no, this takes as long as it takes...

But what is being waiting for?

Yes, I get it, the me doesn't exist.

belief in that moment...

The point is, it feels like it does

direct experience when that was written.

I'm tired of looking

what is still being looked for?

What is self consciousness.
Actually describe what self consciousness is in direct experience.

It's a narrow inward focus, again a tenderness, or hollowness in the chest, a clenching tension in the head behind the eyes and nose, a feeling of separateness, aloneness of the body.

could you really directly experience 'tenderness'?
'aloneness'?
'separation'
or are these just interpretations of thought applied to a certain pattern of sensations.
Look carefully at this.
Where's the evidence that that sensation is 'alonesness'?

operating assumption that there is a Me.

Well. Is there?
How is this 'operating assumption' more than just a thought?
Why be bothered with it?

How many thoughts are being experienced right now?
Is there an outside of right now?
So how many thoughts can be inquired into?

Seeing this is mind boggingly, totally ordinarily, un-dramatic, simplicity.

So...
Is there disappointment?
Is it a kicker that seeing this hasn't resulted in...what exactly? Endless feelings of unity and bliss?

Maybe I shouldn't expect it to. But why keep going then? Yikes, this gate is elusive.

Where is the destination?
What is going there?
What is the 'gate' imagined to be?

This evening it occurred to me that knowledge is just thought. Bare experience contains no knowledge. So many layers of interpretation.

Christ!
That isn't a 'little realisation'
That's an earth shattering, life altering realisation!
Yes bare experience needs no knowledge.
Is there a 'self' in bare experience?
Is knowledge needed to see this?

But some knowledge is demonstrably true isn't it, even without words?

knowledge= thought? as used above..
Show me a demonstrably true thought.

[Locustafiera]

----What is being waited for?

Understanding now. Perspective now, now, now, now, now......

----What is still being looked for?

As above.
Weariness with looking was useful. Reasoning may determine that there can be nothing to look, and so nothing that needs to find, so nothing to be found, all just illusion. But something wouldn't give up looking. Now it is OK to stop. Because again there is understanding that there is nothing looking, nothing to do the looking, nothing missing. Looking makes no sense because everything is right here right now. If it is not here, now, it doesn't exist. This is lighter than before. It's like looking just ran out of gas and disappeared, and its absence is simply a shedding of some useless, frantic, pointless worry.

---Could you directly experience tenderness..aloneness..separation? ... Where's the evidence that that sensation is aloneness?

Tenderness is a directly experienced sensation no? How else to describe it? Oh well, the others aren't its true. Ideas again. Recently thoughts have been noticed more easily. Amazing how wrapped up the mind can get in ideas.

---Well is there (a me)?

No. There is a complex web of beliefs about a me, but it's built on sand, nothing. Seeing this more profoundly now.

---How is this 'operating assumption' more than a thought?

It's a thought of kinds. No me in raw experience. It's been surprising to find out how deeply the belief is rooted though.

---Why be bothered by it?

No need to be really.

---How many thoughts are being experienced right now?

Seems a single 'thought' is experienced, as in known, at a time. But knowing of a thought is thinking too, so really there are no thoughts, just thinking, constantly. To identify a thought is to cut up thinking into artificial packets. Thoughts in words are already thoughts made out of thoughts. It quickly coagulates. Here's a thought, therefore there's a thought about a thought. And possibly thinking about the thought of a thought. After that, who cares already?

---Is there an outside of right now?

No. Now is all there is. There will never be anything but now.

---So how many thoughts can be enquired into?

None. There's only thinking.

---Is there disappointment?

NO!

---Is it a kicker .....

NO! Bliss was not necessary. A bonus yes, and occasional bliss wont be turned away! Understanding now, now, now...

---Where is the destination?
---What is going there?

Ha ha, it's all right here now, there's nothing else. The destination is, ironically, this and not this because destination is an idea. There's nowhere to go, nowhere to possibly be, other than here, now. (Time after all is a dimension, intimately bound up with space, as Einstein showed us!)

---What is the gate imagined to be?

A new understanding. Some Truth.

---Is there a self in bare experience?

No.

---Is knowledge needed to see this?

No.

---Show me a demonstrably true thought.

Maybe some thoughts are hard wired. The babes suckling instinct. A kind of thought?
The smile. The shoulder shrug. these have the same meaning across cultures, Apparently.

Bless you