Ilona, will you be my guide please?

[Heartie]

Hello Ilona,

I would love for you to be my guide if you are available.

I have been interested in non-dual teachings for a couple of years now. I understand the concepts
of no-self and oneness at the intellectual level. They feel so right to me and I would like to be able to experience them fully with my whole being.

Much Love,
Sonara

[Ilona]

Hi sonara,

Thank you for message and welcome to the forum.

Yes, I can be your guide and help you to untangle the knots. But you need to know, that this is your process and you are doing this for yourself, by yourself. I'm here to help you hold focus. Write to me everyday if you can can, this keeps momentum going. Have time each day to really investigate the questions and respond with full honesty and openness. Without that, no help is going to make you see.

So let's start. What do you expect?
What should be different?
What do you hope to gain from this process?
What do you want to experience?
What is missing right now?

Take your time and bring all expectations up. Especially the hidden secret ones. The more you bring up now, the less to deal with later.
Sending love.

[Heartie]

Hello Ilona,

Thank you very much for being my guide and your reply. I feel very lucky to have found this forum. You and others like you are doing an amazing job helping people see the truth.

What do you expect?

Intellectually I can understand that there is no self as everything to do with it is only made up of thought and hence cannot be real. But I do not experience it deeply. The sense of self is too strong most of the time although I have had fleeting moments when the mind is still and there is only expansive awareness and deep deep peace. So I am hoping to experience the truth that I do not have a personal identity.

What should be different?

The truth that there is no separate self should be seen with total clarity.

What do you hope to gain from this process?

That the illusion of the separate self is completely seen through, with the self-inquiry that you guide me towards.

What do you want to experience?

Oneness with all there is, and to be free from the pain and suffering of the egoic self.

What is missing right now?

Peace that I can sustain from moment to moment.

Much Love,
Sonara

[Ilona]

Can you find this sense of self? Where is it in the body? How do you know it's the sense of identity? Without memory or thought, what is this sense? Does this sense own an identity? What is that owns identity? What is identity?


Seeing that self does exist is not the end of pain or suffering, it's not the happy ever after. It's just a first step, not the finish line into the eternal bliss. Pain happens, you see this or not. And no, you will not be in peace 24/7, when belief system starts to collapse there is likely to be a lot of intensity. After initial seeing there is a whole clean up operation that lasts as long as the system needs to rewrite itself. So don't expect that this is going to give you peace. Peace is already here, always, underneath thinking, it's just a matter of noticing that. Peace is not something you gain, but you find it right here right now, in this moment. It's not something that you sustain. There is no you to sustain or manage anything.

Please answer the questions in full, write more, writing helps mind to focus. Write what you feel to be true, not what you heard or read, but from your own experience.

For the length of this conversation it's best to stop reading any books on the subject, stop watching videos and use your own thinking. You can read gateless gatecrashers book and forum.

Sending love

[Heartie]

Thank you for your guidance.

Can you find this sense of self? Where is it in the body? How do you know it's the sense of identity? Without memory or thought, what is this sense? Does this sense own an identity? What is that owns identity? What is identity?

Trying to find the sense of self. Is it in the body? By scanning the body I found some feelings around the solar plexus, behind the eyes, the head. Tried again a couple of hours later and these feelings are absent, so the self is not located in the solar plexus etc. Cannot find the sense of self in the body.

Sense of identity seems to be made up of thoughts and memories only. Without them there is no individual identity. So when I say that my sense of self is strong I mean my thoughts and memories that give me a sense of identity are strong in my mind. But the past does not exist anyway so neither does my identity or the self which the identity points to. So since the sense of self, sense of identity is only made up of thoughts and memories there is no concrete self that resides within the body.

“Seeing that self does exist is not the end of pain or suffering, it's not the happy ever after. It's just a first step, not the finish line into the eternal bliss. Pain happens, you see this or not. And no, you will not be in peace 24/7, when belief system starts to collapse there is likely to be a lot of intensity. After initial seeing there is a whole clean up operation that lasts as long as the system needs to rewrite itself. So don't expect that this is going to give you peace. Peace is already here, always, underneath thinking, it's just a matter of noticing that. Peace is not something you gain, but you find it right here right now, in this moment. It's not something that you sustain. There is no you to sustain or manage anything.”

I am content just to see the truth, through the illusion of the separate self. I realize that life will be life and it will unfold as it will with all it brings. But when you are not catering to the demands of a false sense of self, and realize that it does not even exist, that part of the pain and suffering is lessened and there is more peace within?

“Please answer the questions in full, write more, writing helps mind to focus. Write what you feel to be true, not what you heard or read, but from your own experience.”

I tend not to be very verbose but I realize that writing is important for unraveling the knots, therefore I will try and write more and from my own experience.

“For the length of this conversation it's best to stop reading any books on the subject, stop watching videos and use your own thinking. You can read gateless gatecrashers book and forum.”

Yes sure, I realize that if am going to see the truth it has to be my seeing from my own experience. Before I requested guidance from you I tried reading the forum and other peoples threads but stopped because I felt it was going to affect my responses. I agree not to read any books on the subject for the time being. I just started reading a book called ‘Embracing the Now’, by Lake, doesn’t talk directly about non-duality although does mention that there is no self in reality, should I stop reading it as well?

Much Love.

[Ilona]

Great, thank you for writing more and really looking.

Ok, let's try this- let this thought in and watch what happens.

There is no separate self at all in reality, no I that is manager, watcher, controller, doer, thinker, none as in zero. All that is is free flowing movement of life. There is no agent that makes things happen, no chooser that has free will, all just happens when situations and conditions are right.

Write to me what resistances came up, if any, what was most difficult to grasp, how did body react.

Sending love.

[Heartie]

Thank you very much for your response.

“There is no separate self at all in reality, no I that is manager, watcher, controller, doer, thinker, none as in zero. All that is is free flowing movement of life. There is no agent that makes things happen, no chooser that has free will, all just happens when situations and conditions are right.”

Okay so there is no separate self, therefore it cannot be manager, controller, doer or thinker. So everything that is happening must be just happening? How can I be sure though that there is no other agent involved? There is no “I” then what is left is just awareness within the body, keeping it alive etc. Does it play no part in the controlling managing, thinking, choosing etc.? But then I think that if it was awareness that was controlling, doing everything, then there would not be such terrible things happening in the world. Or would there, is it all just an expression of polarity? The mind is going into a loop here trying to work it out.

But then again I also know that the mind cannot work out awareness, as it only exists within it. So trying next to get my mind out of the way to see what happens when I just hold these ideas in my awareness.

There is a really good feeling, a sort of deep down knowing that this is so, almost a rejoicing at knowing this truth. ‘All just happens when situations and conditions are right’ is just as it is in nature as when the conditions are right for it to rain, then it does so.

“Write to me what resistances came up, if any, what was most difficult to grasp, how did body react.”

When I think about it, there is a bit of fear in the body that there is ‘no chooser that has free will’. But I also know from past experience that things will happen as they will, and not as you want them to and have had to come to terms with certain situations by accepting that it is just as it is, as it is, as it is.

What is most difficult to grasp is that there is no agent whatsoever that makes things happen.

Much Love.

[Ilona]

Great work, heartie, thank you very much for spending some time with this.

Let's see if you can find the agent. For a day observe how everything happens. Is there a mover, an orchestrator, or actions, movement flows effortlessly out of situations. Watch nature, if you have a pet it's good to notice, how it operates. If not, look outside,what moves clouds, trees, people, animals? Is there a separate anything that manages the movement of totality?

Another point- the agent is created by language. It's a concept. Language is built on the base of nouns and verbs. Nouns say there is wind, that blows. But when you feel wind on the face, is there an agent behind it doing blowing? Is there an agent behind sensation doing perceiving?

Here is an article on language http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... guage.html

So today notice, how does language influence perception of objects. Is agent something that can be found outside of language?

Sending love.

[Heartie]

Thank you very much for your reply, Ilona.

“Let's see if you can find the agent. For a day observe how everything happens. Is there a mover, an orchestrator, or actions, movement flows effortlessly out of situations. Watch nature, if you have a pet it's good to notice, how it operates. If not, look outside,what moves clouds, trees, people, animals? Is there a separate anything that manages the movement of totality?”

Looking at nature it is easy for me to see that the wind just blows, the clouds just move in the sky, the waves just form in the sea and crash on the shore without any mover or orchestrator. It’s great observing my cat. It sits in front of me when hungry asking for food. Runs around playing with it’s toys, sleeps when it wants – most of the time it seems. Movement definitely seems to flow effortlessly out of its needs for food, play and sleep without any agent controlling its actions. I can see that with people it must be the same: actions happen as and when and what a situation requires in the moment. I can understand that movement is just happening in the whole of totality; when I think of this and let the mind go quiet and hold it in my awareness then I can deeply feel that this is the truth.

“Nouns say there is wind, that blows. But when you feel wind on the face, is there an agent behind it doing blowing? Is there an agent behind sensation doing perceiving?”

There is no agent behind the wind blowing; it is just blowing on your face etc. There is no “I” behind the sensation doing perceiving, as the “I” is just imaginary, it does not even exist.

“So today notice, how does language influence perception of objects. Is agent something that can be found outside of language?”

The “I” in our language reinforces the concept of a separate self and makes it harder to see that there is no personal self in reality, as our concepts about ourselves are; ‘I am this’, ‘I am that’, or 'I am not this or that', etc. Also, with labels for everything we stop looking at the object, for example with having a name for flower we just have preconceived notions about what it is rather than really looking at it. It is said somewhere that when we learn the name of something we don’t really see it as it is anymore.

The agent like the “I” for instance, that is supposed to be the one that controls us and our actions cannot be found upon our investigation of it’s reality, outside of language.

Much Love

[Ilona]

Great work, yes, this is the direction.
Here is an exercise in this post, do it here or on paper.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Write what you noticed, how body reacts to different way of describing what is happening. Tell me, was there ever an I entity, separate self behind these labels.

Sending love.

[Heartie]

Thank you, Ilona.

“Write what you noticed, how body reacts to different way of describing what is happening.”

There seems to be a heavier feeling in the body when I write ‘I am sitting on the sofa’ but more of a lighter, airy feeling writing ‘sitting on the sofa’. Interestingly, I notice that when I say I am sitting on the sofa there is a longish gap between the ‘I am’ and the rest as though they are not connected. Also, that I do not pay much attention to the ‘I am’ but only the action in my mind making the saying of “I am” superfluous.

“Tell me, was there ever an I entity, separate self behind these labels.”

There never was an “I” entity or a separate self behind these labels. The “I” usage in our language has created and reinforced the idea of a separate self. A child is taught very early on in life that he/she is separate from other people soon as he learns the usage of “I” to think of and address him or herself and of course continued usage of the “I” reinforces the idea of a personal identity.

Much Love.

[Ilona]

Brilliant. so can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear that there is no actual separate entity I, that word I is empty.
How does your answer make you feel?
Are you ready for final questions? Or there is something else that is still needs to be seen? Is here any doubt?

Sending love.

[Heartie]

I am very grateful for all your help, Ilona.

so can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear that there is no actual separate entity I, that word I is empty.

With your guidance I am clear that there is no I, never was and that the “I” is empty when used to represent the self. There isn’t an all pervasive feeling of liberation from the false “I” though. I sometimes have to think of the logic to bring it to mind that there is no self rather than this knowledge just being there. The old conditioning is still present. Just wondering if mainly I have understood at the intellectual level, even though there is a knowing at the truth of this within me. I wonder if I need to let it all sink in.

How does your answer make you feel?”

In the body there is a feeling of fear; think mainly that I haven’t really really seen through the illusion.

Much Love

[Ilona]

Thank you for answer.
Let's bring that fear closer. What is it's job? Can you see it is protecting something? Ask it what is it that needs to be protected. Look behind fear, what is there?


As for conditioning, it wasn't built in a day or two, so it does take a lot of time to deconstruct. Some beliefs fall suddenly, some need more investigation and release. So don't worry, this does not mean that you haven't seen it. It looks like there are some expectations at this point, can you write what you think should change, be different, what is not complete.

It is possible that you got this intellectually, now you just need to test this in actuality. So have a good look in ordinary every day experiences, is it true, that separate self does not exist.

Write when ready.

Sending love.

[Heartie]

Thank you for your response, Ilona.

“Let's bring that fear closer. What is it's job? Can you see it is protecting something? Ask it what is it that needs to be protected. Look behind fear, what is there?”

I think that the fear is multilayered. On the one hand there is doubt that I haven’t really seen through the no self and I don’t want to mislead you or myself that I have. On the other hand could the illusion of the self be trying to protect itself by creating doubt in my mind that I have really seen that there is no individual self, I wonder?

“As for conditioning, it wasn't built in a day or two, so it does take a lot of time to deconstruct. Some beliefs fall suddenly, some need more investigation and release. So don't worry, this does not mean that you haven't seen it.”

I have spent all my life thinking there is a separate self; the belief being reinforced each day and becoming stronger and stronger. So yes I understand that it could take a lot of time to deconstruct.

“It looks like there are some expectations at this point, can you write what you think should change, be different, what is not complete.”

Think the expectations at this point have been that the feeling of seeing that there is no self would be stronger and lot more pervasive within me.

“It is possible that you got this intellectually, now you just need to test this in actuality. So have a good look in ordinary every day experiences, is it true, that separate self does not exist.”

I am trying to keep in mind that there is no self for as long as I can during the day and it feels okay so far but I will continue and keep testing this.

Much Love