Request for a Guide

[Jack'n'theBox]

So how's it all going? "You" still there?

[Ngapa]

Re attention: Thought seems to affect attention, in the same way as it affects breath - breathing and attention happen anyway but a thought may change it. No need to assume an I directing this anyway.

I have been continuing with noticing the symphony of awareness, intending to relax any mental effort and let awareness be whatever it will. In the last couple of days I have also been aiming to notice times of emotion, eg irritation, anxiety, or of physical discomfort, and at these times to look for a self or a thought of self.
Are there other things which might help?

[For info - I am going to Africa for 4 weeks of January, sometimes out of any contact]

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK it’s important to keep looking – but not to reify this in to some kind of ‘practice’ – just notice what is actually happening (not what thought says is happening). Notice that what is happening is happening all by itself. Thoughts that reference an ‘I’ are part of what is happening. Mind and its stories are happening. But there is no ‘me’ there that needs to do anything to make this happen.

What comes up when you read this:

There is no “me” in any shape or form, in reality. There can be a thought-created “I” in a story told about “me.” But the thought-created “I” doesn’t refer to anything at all. It’s just a thought.

[Ngapa]

There seems to be a me which is not the form.
Can we look at that?

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK but what is this 'me' other than a thought referencing a 'me'?

Can you find 'me' in direct experience? Have a look and tell me what you actually discover.

[Ngapa]

I'm trying to see what is really going on, not just give you answers I don't live by or act upon, so I write answers then review them next day, continuing to investigate. So here's what I find about the me of my experiences:

I find a thought about what I'm aware of, the sum of my experiences appear to make sense in terms of planning future, based on past, making choices.
I was thinking about what I plan to do next year - is that pointless, unreal, deceptive? If I have no concept of a me, how could I plan anything? What makes this not chaos?
I am able to plan things and do those things, using thinking, holding a concept of someone who will be, and then is, doing them.

If I take thoughts as merely transient appearances in awareness, like dreams, then what is there that means anything?

[Jack'n'theBox]

[

I'm trying to see what is really going on

No you’re not! Everything you say below comes from the realm of mental speculation – you’ve been ‘thinking’ through this stuff not looking.

I find a thought about what I'm aware of, the sum of my experiences appear to make sense in terms of planning future, based on past, making choices.

What is it that ‘finds’ a thought and makes the evaluation that it ‘appears to make sense’ other than another thought – we’ve been through this many times – what is this “I” that thought is supposedly speaking to here? Have you been able to find it? Can you find some entity that stands behind thought and ‘makes sense’ of it? IT’S ALL JUST THOUGHT.

I was thinking about what I plan to do next year - is that pointless, unreal, deceptive? If I have no concept of a me, how could I plan anything? What makes this not chaos?

Really? “I” was thinking was it? Can you find this “I” that engages in this activity? We’ve been through this so many times. Of course you have a CONCEPT OF A ME! That’s what ‘me’ is – a CONCEPT. The ‘idea’ of a me moving through space and time doesn’t suddenly disappear and you are left staring into space like a madman! All that happens is that the belief that ‘me’ is a really existing entity separate from life is seen through – everything is happening by itself – there is no ‘thing’ in the driver’s seat.
Remember there already is no-self – just the belief that there is one. So everything is ALREADY happening by itself. Nothing changes – your life carries on – but it is seen that life doesn’t ‘belong’ to an entity called ‘me’ – it is all happening by itself. Plans still get made in ‘my’ life and sometimes they even happen. But it’s clear that there is no ‘me’ doing them and no ‘me’ necessary for them to be done.

I am able to plan things and do those things, using thinking, holding a concept of someone who will be, and then is, doing them.

No ‘you’ are not. Thought just says this. Plans are made and sometimes those plans happen and sometimes they don’t, depending on the circumstances that enable them or don’t. There is no planner outside thought that says ‘I planned this’.

If I take thoughts as merely transient appearances in awareness, like dreams, then what is there that means anything?

Oh, so is this what this rather surprising post is all about – the search for ‘meaning’? Looks like the thinking process is putting up quite a fight here. Can you see that? I’m surprised to hear this from a meditator – in dhyana there’s no thought, right? Does life lose all ‘meaning’ when in that state? What about sleep? No thought, right? Is that a meaningless activity? What about when you are so lost in the moment – in art or in nature because it’s all so fucking beautiful – and it’s all just flow and there’s no thought commentary about it – is that meaningless? What is it that says that life is meaningless without some thought commentary about it? Errr, that would be THOUGHT!
I’ve told you again and again – find that ‘gap’ between thoughts wherein thought is seen as just one arising in this huge, incredible mess we call ‘life’ – notice how being is so incredibly much more than any ‘thought’ about it. Drop the thought and just be there in the moment and see what you find.

[Ngapa]

That was revealing wasn't it? Thoughts do seem to take over. Thinking still wants to sort it all out and think in a not-self way.
I practise dropping thinking. Can we conclude anything except that what needs to be seen is not seen clearly enough?
Than you for sticking with this.

[Jack'n'theBox]

No need to "practice" anything -- thoughts aren't the problem -- thought runs on its own program -- there's no-thing that can start or stop it -- the problem is believing in thoughts -- my thought process carries on much the same as it did before gating -- how could it stop (what could stop it?) but I SEE that thoughts aren't personal -- they aren't MY thoughts -- they don't refer to anything other than other thoughts ABOUT reality -- but they aren't reality -- they are just thoughts! This video from Ruper Spira explains this very nicely -- watch it and ask me if you have any questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_9N1fCJWJg

[Ngapa]

This is helpful, thanks. Thoughts can be saying "this isn't going anywhere", "I'm really sad when it doesn't, I'll be happy when I do seem to be getting somewhere with this..." etc, but whatever thoughts say, it seems to be a matter of seeing the truth directly, so that awareness sees itself as what's happening, more than the interpretation that says what this particular thing is that's happening now. I hope that's clear.

Your answers seem to be having an effect on experience, and I found Rupert Spira's talk did too. It took me on to a couple more of his talks. I noticed this morning that a pain I was feeling was just "knowing" - in that there is nothing there which is being known, if you cut me open. Of course that's true for everything, but to see that directly was fun.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK, good, sit with this -- it's OK to spend about 10 minutes thinking 'conceptually' about what this means -- but I'm not pointing to anything that mind can 'know' here so put what thought says aside. Treat it as a koan and keep coming back to it throughout the weekend and let me know what comes up:

Recognising the emptiness of the self-view is not something that can be known by the mind, realised by practice or brought into being by any agent. It is already present here and now as this ordinary awareness.

[Ngapa]

Recognising the emptiness of the self-view is not something that can be known by the mind, realised by practice or brought into being by any agent. It is already present here and now as this ordinary awareness.

It'd be great to have a flash of satori and never to be fooled again... but failing that, persistence seems to be useful. But I don't get this sentence of yours, yes it must be already present, but the recognition needs to happen, ordinary awareness is overlooked and mistaken for things otherwise.

Where it went with the "nothing there, just knowing" observations, was to music 'in your head' from earphones, and thoughts - which couldn't even be in your head or the music would displace them. When you have a thought there is nothing you can find or hold or get rid of.

The thought did arise as to what it is which takes people "through the gate" decisively, it didn't seem clear in the Gateless Gatecrashers, but you must have experience yourself of helping people. Maybe it is just the persistence I mentioned. Thanks for yours!

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK there’s no self, right, just thoughts about one – so what, exactly, could this ‘flash of satori’ happen to? What is fooled at the moment that isn’t fooled in the next moment? We’re back to the imagined future here. You’re still hanging on to a (not so subtle!) sense of self – some ’thing’ you expect to be radically changed. Drop the expectations. This is what I’m pointing to – ‘ordinary awareness’ – no satori, just this, just now, always already empty of self. No ‘thing’ to do, nowhere to go. Just look and see that experience is happening – to no-one.

Yes, persistence – just keep looking at what is happening now – it’s in the now not the ‘future’!

OK some more pointers – look to see this in your experience (not thoughts about experience):

You seem a bit frustrated not to have ‘got it’ – what is this sense of frustration? What is experiencing it? Anything?

Close your eyes. As any arising comes into your awareness from any of the six senses, see that all this experience is without cause. Without a reason for being. That it just is.

With no self there to negotiate this spontaneous arising – what is it that could demand some ‘meaning’ out of ‘all this’?

[Ngapa]

"WHo could satori happen to?" Isn't that the same as asking who goes through the "gate"? My guess is that before it happens you think there is someone it will happen to, but then it just happens, or it just is (and sees that it always was, actually). So i will have expectations until I consistently "Just look and see that experience is happening – to no-one."
You are saying that I need not think about what might happen, but just look now and see...
I keep doing this, and this morning I had a sense, I suppose an idea, that this continuing awareness amounts to a "me", without there needing to be a separate Me experiencing it.
I also noticed a background idea that there is something outside present awareness, ie things which I am not aware of at the moment do exist.
These two seemed to add up to a view in which there is a world and a Me in it.
I realise that these need questioning from experience, but it wasn't clear this morning. Sometimes when I read your posts it is not clear - it is seen from a self thought view. Then later I notice that. WHile I still have an imaginary future, it includes being away from a computer for some time in the next month, but having time to question experience and get used to what is found.

[Jack'n'theBox]

"WHo could satori happen to?" Isn't that the same as asking who goes through the "gate"? My guess is that before it happens you think there is someone it will happen to, but then it just happens, or it just is (and sees that it always was, actually).

Well let’s rephrase this, before the gate thoughts arise that there is a person (you) and an event (satori) that it ‘happens to’. Afterwards, those thoughts of a person, an event and a happening are seen to have been just thoughts.

So i will have expectations until I consistently "Just look and see that experience is happening – to no-one."

What is this entity that ‘has expectations’? Is there something outside of the expectations that somehow generates or owns them? Expectations still arise here – it’s just seen that they are not ‘mine’.

You are saying that I need not think about what might happen, but just look now and see...
I keep doing this, and this morning I had a sense, I suppose an idea, that this continuing awareness amounts to a "me", without there needing to be a separate Me experiencing it.

Well the giveaway here is “I suppose an idea” – sure you have the “idea” that there is a self. I’ve been drawing your attention to this for some time!

I also noticed a background idea that there is something outside present awareness, ie things which I am not aware of at the moment do exist.

I can’t help you with your ideas other than to point out to you again that they are just that, ideas! While watching The Hobbit I also had the idea that hobbits exist – it would be a pretty crappy film experience if I didn’t – but when I leave the cinema I leave that idea behind. You seem invested in carrying the idea of ‘me’ around. There’s only so many ways I can point out how it’s just an idea!

These two seemed to add up to a view in which there is a world and a Me in it.

Yep, that’s how it works – ideas/views ‘add up’ and create ‘me’ and ‘the world’. It’s called delusion.

I realise that these need questioning from experience, but it wasn't clear this morning.

What wasn’t clear? You persistently come back to believing thoughts over direct experience: ‘things of which I’m not aware do exist’ – well great, shall we start a list? Santa, unicorns, faries, Godzilla, ‘me’. . .

Sometimes when I read your posts it is not clear - it is seen from a self thought view.

I’m not here to explain stuff to you – I just point, your job is to look. If you repeatedly insist on looking in thought not direct experience then I can’t help you – if you want to play in the world of thought you’d get more out of enrolling in a philosophy degree.

Then later I notice that.

Great – it is in this moment that seeing can actually happen!

WHile I still have an imaginary future, it includes being away from a computer for some time in the next month, but having time to question experience and get used to what is found.

OK good luck with that! Let me know when you are back if you want to continue. I’ll be here.