Requesting a guide

[Cheryl]

Cool! So is attention playing out too? Is anyone looking?

oh dear. lots of tears.. gimme a minute

[Devina]

There's nothing to lose.

Take your time. :)

[Cheryl]

is attention just playing out too? there's so much 'pointing' around advaita masters etc abt the attention. We're often pointed to bring the attention to the awareness. as if the awareness is something like, perhaps, the self, that exists?

[Cheryl]

but it doesn't exist either

[Devina]

In looking - does awareness seem anything like a self?

[Cheryl]

Hmmm, i will get back to you tomorrow on that one... <3

[Devina]

No problem.

Just look in experience - does consciousness have any qualities of a Cheryl? Or any qualities at all?

[Cheryl]

Just look in experience - does consciousness have any qualities of a Cheryl? Or any qualities at all?

hi d,
using a friend's computer for a minute. i held onto this question but i cannot seem to discern, find consciousness in order to probe this. its as if i don't really know what consciousness is. not really sure what you mean when say consciousness? i can read textbook definitions of course but that isn't what we're going for. so the only impression i'm left with is that i can't find it, a thing called consciousness.

[Devina]

not really sure what you mean when say consciousness?

I just didn't want to muddle it too much by calling it "awareness." That has become something of a religious word used to mean several different things. I mean: the fact that experience is being experienced. Does the experiencing look anything like Cheryl? Is there a self there?

Look, is there a watcher being shown an image - as if there are two separate things?

In seeing, only the seen.

Keep looking for the looker. Cheers!

[Cheryl]

I just didn't want to muddle it too much by calling it "awareness." That has become something of a religious word used to mean several different things. I mean: the fact that experience is being experienced. Does the experiencing look anything like Cheryl? Is there a self there?

Look, is there a watcher being shown an image - as if there are two separate things?

In seeing, only the seen.

Keep looking for the looker. Cheers!

*No. no there isn't... i saw this post later in the day and it was muddled in the head and i picked out "Does the experiencing look like Cheryl?" and didn't 'see' the rest of this post. I was in a state of confusion all day. But just now i opened it again and looked at it and there came understanding.

when experience is there, there's just the experience. there can be endless chatter going on in the head, but behind/beneath whatever there's just the experience.
There was a very tense bus ride home this evening. The snow combined with mechanical issues made the bus ride 2.5 hrs, it usually takes about an hour 20 minutes. I kept talking 'myself' down.
"Its ok, you're safe. there's nothing you can do. worse comes to worse u go back to town and stay with friend." My adult daughter was also on the bus. For some reason there was soooo much anxiety forming. i looked at the day in retrospect and guilt had been in the spotlight because i wasn't able to have birthday lunch with my son and finally see his first apartment due to bad weather, and a work incident on thursday and an upcoming event where there was a sense of obligation but wanting to figure a way out of it. So all of this plus not being able to 'get' this whole liberation thing heightened the 'state' i was in on the ride home.

looking back, i can see now that there was this conditioning/this mind stuff going on while at the same time there was the experience of being on the bus and what was going on around me with other people, the music playing in my headphones, the smell of burning rubber. but the spotlight was on the battle going on in the mind, so the experience was sort of pushed in to the background.

so there's mind stuff and there's what IS. there's the perceiving and thoughts about the perceived or thoughts abt 5 billion things other than the perceived.

[Devina]

when experience is there, there's just the experience. there can be endless chatter going on in the head, but behind/beneath whatever there's just the experience.

Yes, that is much the case... but wait, there's more!

so there's mind stuff and there's what IS. there's the perceiving and thoughts...

Can anything be experienced outside of awareness? How about thoughts? Actually sit with eyes closed and check.

The "spotlight" may turn to highlight various things. What seems to cause this?

[Cheryl]

Can anything be experienced outside of awareness? How about thoughts? Actually sit with eyes closed and check.

The "spotlight" may turn to highlight various things. What seems to cause this?

*It seems like everything is going on inside awareness, but if attention isn't brought to whatever then it isn't recognized on a conscious level.
So sitting with eyes closed there is awareness of sounds sensations and the labeling of whatever phenomenon . Thoughts come and go regarding whether i'm doing this exercise correctly. There seems to be a sense of thoughts on top of thoughts. Again, everything seems to be going on inside of 'awareness'.

The 'spotlighting' seems to be about whatever is grabbing the attention thru perception. For instance at one point i became aware that my feet were getting cold and so i felt cold more intensely than when i was engrossed in thought but once i came to the conclusion that there wasn't much i could do about the cold feet, i went back to obsessing over the bus situation with less of a focus on the cold feet.

[Devina]

when experience is there...

Is experience ever not there?

*It seems like everything is going on inside awareness, but if attention isn't brought to whatever then it isn't recognized on a conscious level.

So, is the entire personal story constantly living somewhere in the pre-conscious, coming up when needed - and if so, what happened on this day last year? Watch preferences pop up, for foods or clothing or whatever... aren't they more like attention grabbed and then an explanation: "Oh yeah, I'm supposed to like that?"

Look at time. Is it ever any other time than right now? Even with thought?

Does the self exist now or only in past and future fantasies?

The 'spotlighting' seems to be about whatever is grabbing the attention thru perception. For instance at one point i became aware that my feet were getting cold and so i felt cold more intensely than when i was engrossed in thought...

So if attention is on whatever is most intense at the moment, does anyone choose what is focused on?
Is anyone looking?
Is there free will - anyone in control of anything?
Is the body being piloted or does it operate without guidance?

Does the body seem magically different from anything else in vision or feeling - scenery without management?
Does anything in the environment have an eternal, unchanging essence or soul - or is everything just a temporary condition?
Does anything act alone, independently, unaffected by the rest of the universe? Does a ship plow over the water or is it one movement with the currents, the weather, the sails, how oars drag through the water? Does a self slam on the brakes or is the nervous system reacting to another car crossing the intersection?

Do thoughts about a self prove that there is a self? Check them when they come up, to see if any of their story is true in direct experience.

I will have limited internet access until this weekend but I will try to check in at least once a day. Hopefully these are enough questions to explore over the next few days. Really look for the answers in direct experience, not thinking, as you've done so well at reminding yourself of here and there. :)

Another possibility is to look over the thread from beginning to end with your new understanding. Something might make more sense this time around. It's all right here... just more looking is left. Noticing those stretches and drinks and incessant mind-chatter about a self...

Hugs, Cheryl! You're doing fine. No one to do anything, anyway. :)

[Cheryl]

Is experience ever not there?

*Experience seems to be always there except in deep sleep (non-dreaming) when there is no 'me/self' conscious of what is going on.

So, is the entire personal story constantly living somewhere in the pre-conscious, coming up when needed - and if so, what happened on this day last year? Watch preferences pop up, for foods or clothing or whatever... aren't they more like attention grabbed and then an explanation: "Oh yeah, I'm supposed to like that?

*maybe I meant it seems like everything experienced ‘now’ is going on inside awareness, but there are things which trigger memories and the memories also happen ‘now’ inside awareness? I do hold the belief that memory is stored in the brain-consciousness but not that it comes up when needed becauseI have a crappy long term memory, my sister and brother recall waaay more than I do about our family history. (at first I thought it was due to epilepsy I had as a child but then found out that some folks just don’t have those childhood memories and it isn’t a fault or due to suppression, but I still wonder why). Yeh, it appears preferences are based on memory, mostly. I say ‘mostly’ then realized that any preference for anything must relate to something from past. If it’s something ‘new’, like a new band or something there is still some connection to past preferences.

Look at time. Is it ever any other time than right now? Even with thought?

*No, always here, always now, thoughts abt the past happen now.

Does the self exist now or only in past and future fantasies?

*Ah, this is true self does seem to only relate to NOT ‘now’.

Ok, am going to go slow, trying to only focus on direct experience and follow your direction abt looking over the entire thread etc. Thanks for the heads up abt your limited access, because seems I am always waiting, checking but not anxiously (excitedly) for you to respond! 
Thank YOU!!! thanks for hugs!

[Devina]

*Experience seems to be always there except in deep sleep (non-dreaming) when there is no 'me/self' conscious of what is going on.

Is there a self that is conscious, or is there consciousness without a self behind it?

This is it, this is all that needs to be looked at! Not even the rest of the thread. Check this for truth. Look! As if looking for a lost item, try to find this person who is conscious or not. Are they even there? Does this consciousness have any qualities that a self would have?