Seeking a Guide

[Bill]

No Bill, this "me" can only be a thought, idea and habit. The habit of self referencing may continue for a while, but I know that there is no "self" doing anything. When attention goes to the looking of life and this body movements, it is clear to see that there is no one instructing this body how to move. Everything just happens.

Looking into the DE this self has always been just habitual thoughts of self referencing. A story. The self referencing thoughts still arise, but they seem less sticky. Although there were moments of attention going into the story with painful results. The knowing will somehow deepen over time. Attention continues to watch, and observe the thoughts and body, attention to going to DE as it is.

Hello Paula.. Yes, I like what you're saying here.. one thing caught my attention though..
take a look at the two sentences I have bolded.... Tell me what you see in those.

The "I" thought comes up a lot out of habit, but it has never been able to think or do anything. Thoughts just appear from patterns of conditioning that belong to no one. Removing all concepts and ideas and just looking at this DE, there is a seeing that nothing can truly be known. Everything seen is not the label that was made up and given to that particular object. Without labels nothing is separate. It is only language and assumptions that divide, mental constructs. No wonder being with nature is so pleasant. No divisions, assumptions, or labels..life just being as it is.
This self I thought myself to be is not there as a real entity. I cannot locate this self anywhere in direct experience. There is always, always this knowing of experience present. Although this knowing cannot be seen, it can be known and it is because of this knowing that the truth of no-self can be known.

Your understanding is very clear on most all this...
I really like how you describe things.
Did have to read this last sentence a few times and am not quite sure what it means.

Some thoughts on 'expectations':

"Let go of all the beliefs, all the gurus or masters, all the books you have read or seminars you have followed. They won't help here. This is not something learned; it is something to see. It comes in different ways, but when you know it, you know it. The present moment is the only truth."

"This work does not aim to trigger certain types of altered states of consciousness. These may happen (or not), yet they are entirely beside the point. What these conversations are intended to do is invite you to simply look directly at what is already the case right now, regardless of whatever state of consciousness may be happening."

"The aim of this inquiry is not to give security. It is to see through illusion to reality. And in that process, we find that the person looking for security doesn't exist. Then the need for finding security and the need for answers falls away, too."

Paula - What do you expect to happen?

[paulagsell]

Hi Bill,

I read your post yesterday and put it in a word document. I wanted to add to it later in the day, but it was gone, so I am starting fresh today.

The habit of self referencing may continue for a while,

The knowing will somehow deepen over time.

I see that these two sentences are in reference to a future time. There is a lack of seeing that it is here right now in this moment. Apparently some expectation still persist. How does one let go of expectations?

There is always, always this knowing of experience present. Although this knowing cannot be seen, it can be known and it is because of this knowing that the truth of no-self can be known.

I think what I was trying to express here was about this awareness/alive cognition that is always present and yet this awareness can not be known as an object or thing and because of this awareness/life the truth can be known. Not sure if this makes any sense either! LOL

Paula - What do you expect to happen?

Bill in this moment there is seeing, hearing, feeling etc. and in reality this so-called person does not exist, when you think about this, nothing needs to change, there has never been anyone there to begin with...only a thought thinking that there is an entity there. Bill, somehow I know this, yet it FEELS like an intellectual knowing..When I observe the body moving I see there is no one giving direction to make this body move. When thoughts arise I see there is no thinker, thinking just happens. As I type these words I look for the one typing, all I see are fingers moving, letters on this screen and thoughts arising..there is no one giving direction to do any task..it's automatic, life does everything! When feelings come up that are uncomfortable, I see that that too is life/patterns. There is still some form of resistance to feelings and thoughts that arise that are judged as negative. This too is a pattern. There is a expectation that this pattern would fall away..This is a belief picked up through reading so many books and others experiences. How to let go of these expectations?? I see why you want to tackle this early in the inquiry. What next Bill?

Namaste,
Paula

[Bill]

"The habit of self referencing may continue for a while"
"The knowing will somehow deepen over time"

I see that these two sentences are in reference to a future time. There is a lack of seeing that it is here right now in this moment. Apparently some expectation still persist. How does one let go of expectations?

Paula - they might be able to be just dropped if seen that they are just thoughts..... beliefs that if looked at, don't hold up to reality.
All of these expectations are just thought constructs you've created over time and can't be relied on as accurate.
What is here now is reality.
The resistance you feel is also reality. There's nothing 'wrong' with it.
Of course you feel it should be relieved from all you've read.. we should be able to just accept everything as it is.
And if we can't, we're somehow short or missing the mark? This is the classical myth.
Whatever is happening now is 100% full on life expressing itself as us, through us and can only be wrong in our minds.... In our thoughts... In our beliefs. Just notice all these things as they come up. Notice the thoughts, notice the feelings that come up around the thoughts.
If there is no 'you'.... where are these thoughts and ideas sticking? To what?
Many are just deep conditioning and are not going to just disappear overnight. Or not at all maybe.
Seeing the truth really has nothing to do with any condition improving or going away.

There is still some form of resistance to feelings and thoughts that arise that are judged as negative. This too is a pattern. There is a expectation that this pattern would fall away..This is a belief picked up through reading so many books and others experiences. How to let go of these expectations?? I see why you want to tackle this early in the inquiry. What next Bill?

See that they are only thoughts Paula... and not real in any sense other than in our mind.
if seen clearly, they may be able to be dropped.
Or maybe it could be like opening a venetian blind's slats.... the blind is still there, but we can now see through the blind.

A few thoughts on fear and expectations:
some of these may be redundant.. it's OK. :)

"We are afraid to lose our story because it has become so familiar and dear to us. What would we be without it? It's worth taking the time to find out because what you keep looking for (so you can finally relax) is what you already are. No accomplishment, external fame, material stuff, or appreciation will ever fulfill you."

"Life is just "life-ing." Anxiety may appear from time to time, but there is no one there to attach to it. It is seen that that "me" is just passing by - as a thought in the thought-sensation stream."

"This is not a project where you gather information, cover lots of different angles, lay out the results, and draw conclusions. It is about looking in your experience to see what the "I" is. It is about an honest look. It's not about thoughts."

"There is nothing that needs to happen. Expecting some grand realization gets in the way of real seeing. Everything already is as it always is."

[paulagsell]

Hi Bill, I will respond tomorrow to your post. Thank you!

[paulagsell]

Good morning Bill,

Paula - they might be able to be just dropped if seen that they are just thoughts..... beliefs that if looked at, don't hold up to reality.
All of these expectations are just thought constructs you've created over time and can't be relied on as accurate.
What is here now is reality.
The resistance you feel is also reality. There's nothing 'wrong' with it.
Of course you feel it should be relieved from all you've read.. we should be able to just accept everything as it is.
And if we can't, we're somehow short or missing the mark? This is the classical myth.

Bill, expectations are just thoughts. After you have read so many books, it's natural for the mind to develop ideas on how things should be. In DE there is only this moment as it is with or without resistance, sadness, anxiety etc.
Since I cannot find anyone who owns these sensations these sensations belong to life to whatever is happening in the moment. The mistake is thinking the sensations somehow belong to the "I".

If there is no 'you'.... where are these thoughts and ideas sticking? To what?
Many are just deep conditioning and are not going to just disappear overnight. Or not at all maybe.
Seeing the truth really has nothing to do with any condition improving or going away.

Bill, the thoughts seem to be sticking to the idea that once the recognition is seen through that there is no one here, the mind relaxes and our natural state shines forth, peace, love, contentment, etc. Of course these are just more thoughts. When I observe my pet Chinchilla, who doesn't like to be held, and when I do, she becomes frighten and her body shakes. She does not think and still this sensation which is labeled fear arises in her body. This shows me that these sensations are part of life. However the fear/sensation that arise from thoughts are learned, conditioned responses...they have nothing to do with there being an entity or not. Perhaps observing nature can help overcome the expectations as we watch the flow of life in those who do not suffer from having an ego/thinking.

Whatever is happening now is 100% full on life expressing itself as us, through us and can only be wrong in our minds.... In our thoughts... In our beliefs. Just notice all these things as they come up. Notice the thoughts, notice the feelings that come up around the thoughts.

Bill, I notice the thoughts that come up and then the sensation arises. Sometime in the morning I wake up to a vague feeling of discomfort, and the thought arises around not wanting to go to work. Seeing the sensation and thought has nothing to do with this "I". Somehow certain thoughts are seen as personal, belonging to someone.. others thoughts are just thoughts belonging to know one. Of course they are nothing but thoughts, really all the same, they come and go and are totally empty.

See that they are only thoughts Paula... and not real in any sense other than in our mind.
if seen clearly, they may be able to be dropped.
Or maybe it could be like opening a venetian blind's slats.... the blind is still there, but we can now see through the blind.

I see what you are saying here with this blind analogy, the appearance of thoughts and sensations may arise, but just see through those thoughts and sensations, seeing that they are just another appearance belonging to know one. Just life living itself through this body. See through the seeing of appearances.

A few thoughts on fear and expectations:
some of these may be redundant.. it's OK. :)

"We are afraid to lose our story because it has become so familiar and dear to us. What would we be without it? It's worth taking the time to find out because what you keep looking for (so you can finally relax) is what you already are. No accomplishment, external fame, material stuff, or appreciation will ever fulfill you."

"Life is just "life-ing." Anxiety may appear from time to time, but there is no one there to attach to it. It is seen that that "me" is just passing by - as a thought in the thought-sensation stream."

Bill, "What would I be without this story of ME" the first and only word that comes to mind is "FREE". Without this story there is no one who ever made a mistake, no one that is somehow inferior to others, no one who feels guilty. I don't feel a loss or sadness about losing the story of me. There is nothing but this moment! Totally free. I must be totally free now! Really what could be standing in the way of this freedom? A thought and sensation?..a thought that comes and goes and is not locatable, totally empty, sounds like a big freakin joke!!

I agree that there is nothing here that will ever fulfill me. All that matters is seeing through this illusion. No matter what appears, it is a passing show, the observing never moves, never judges, is totally still and peaceful. I will continue to observe thoughts and feelings as they arise. Alert attention to what is happening in this moment.

I also continue to read others post and find it very helpful.
Thank you Bill,
Namaste.

[Bill]

She does not think and still this sensation which is labeled fear arises in her body. This shows me that these sensations are part of life. However the fear/sensation that arise from thoughts are learned, conditioned responses...they have nothing to do with there being an entity or not. Perhaps observing nature can help overcome the expectations as we watch the flow of life in those who do not suffer from having an ego/thinking.

Excellent noticing. Yes I would like you to get out into somewhere natural if there's a park or other natural area closeby and just notice the uneveness of it, the order that is there, without anything in control.

Bill, "What would I be without this story of ME" the first and only word that comes to mind is "FREE". Without this story there is no one who ever made a mistake, no one that is somehow inferior to others, no one who feels guilty. I don't feel a loss or sadness about losing the story of me. There is nothing but this moment! Totally free. I must be totally free now! Really what could be standing in the way of this freedom? A thought and sensation?..a thought that comes and goes and is not locatable, totally empty, sounds like a big freakin joke!!

Yes.. are we not already FREE? and really always have been and could never not be? If only for what we are thinking about that is keeping us NOT free. Nice point here.

Here is an article on expectations written by Ilona on her blog. Take a look and tell me what is left for you here as far as this issue is concerned. Don't rush to answer back, take your time with it and report back when you're ready.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... tions.html

[paulagsell]

Hello Bill,

I will respond tomorrow to your post. Thank you!

Namaste,
Paula

[Bill]

Hope all is well Paula.. ok to take a bit of a break.
Continue on whenever you're ready.

[paulagsell]

Hi Bill,
Thank you for the blog. I went through it and wrote a list of expectations. I do see that these expectations are just thoughts and I had more expectations then I realized in general. A few days ago I had a moment of totally clear seeing, it was as if the awareness was forefront and all contents were behind or contain. But it was an experience. I'm ready to continue.

Not sure what to say here. I haven't had an opportunity to be in nature. But I have take some time to just watch out my window at the trees and sky, the birds passing and squirrels playing, it's all just happen on it's own. As I watch my own pet it is clear to see life is living itself. There is still a sense of "me" present and of course the thoughts continue to run do to the conditioning. This sense of me is got to be the conditioning of habits. Not sure if I have seen through this illusion.

Namaste,
Paula

[Bill]

Hello Paula,

Usually getting stuck in the gate is a result of over-intellectualizing instead of directly experiencing life. Check if you can shut off the constant commentary of mind while you walk and experience the light, the air, and what you see.

Thank you for the blog. I went through it and wrote a list of expectations. I do see that these expectations are just thoughts and I had more expectations then I realized in general. A few days ago I had a moment of totally clear seeing, it was as if the awareness was forefront and all contents were behind or contain. But it was an experience. I'm ready to continue.

Not only are the expectations thoughts, they are all not true thoughts.
Whatever you might imagine, this will not be it.
You are expecting something 'big' to happen.
Like all your negative thoughts to go away.... poof.
Please let go of this Paula.
This is everyday, normal life we are talking about.
Magic stuff writes good books and keeps people stuck in hopes of a 'better life'.
This has nothing to do with that.
It is only about seeing reality as it is.

There is still a sense of "me" present and of course the thoughts continue to run do to the conditioning. This sense of me is got to be the conditioning of habits. Not sure if I have seen through this illusion.

The sense of self can be there.. sure... is it anything more than feelings and perceptions?
Does this sense of self mean there is a real self that can be found.
We are only looking for one thing here in the forum....
To see if a self can be found anywhere.... real.
If you LOOK Paula, as we have talked about what LOOKING is,
can you find this I, or a self, in reality?
Is it true that there is no separate entity, no "me"?

LOOKING is what must be done....
Only you can do it. Its simpler than you imagine.
Just relax and LOOK...

[paulagsell]

Good morning Bill,

Not only are the expectations thoughts, they are all not true thoughts.
Whatever you might imagine, this will not be it.
You are expecting something 'big' to happen.
Like all your negative thoughts to go away.... poof.
Please let go of this Paula.
This is everyday, normal life we are talking about.
Magic stuff writes good books and keeps people stuck in hopes of a 'better life'.
This has nothing to do with that.
It is only about seeing reality as it is

Bill, I'm ready and able to let go of these expectations of something "BIG" happening. I won't go into detail, but there have been some really "BIG" experiences with light and OBE over the years, I think somehow there was and idea that this enlightenment thing was suppose to top those experiences. Funny how the mind works.

Every day life is it. With all it's feelings, thoughts, and experiences. Just Looking at the moments and thoughts as they arise and relaxing into it all, for some reason I realize nothing is wrong, not the feelings, not the thoughts, nothing can be wrong! Wrong is a concept, life is just living itself. There was an idea that the thoughts and feelings were wrong and needed to be a particular way and since there is NO ME, nothing is wrong..How can life be wrong?? Is the blustering wind wrong, is the torrential downpours wrong?? Can a cloudy day be wrong?? NO, no, no..therefore nothing is ever wrong..I can't find a "me" inside or outside. Seeing the body move without direction, watching the thoughts arises without a thinker. Experiencing sensations arise that are labeled sad, anxiety, fear, etc..all of these belong to life. The mind thought that it belonged to a "me" and if the me went so would these feelings and thoughts, but there is no me, there is only this.... freedom is knowing nothing is wrong. Life doesn't make mistakes, only a fearful thought will judge what is happening, but truly nothing is really happening. I don't know all these words and insights just flew out of me this morning.

The sense of self can be there.. sure... is it anything more than feelings and perceptions?
Does this sense of self mean there is a real self that can be found.
We are only looking for one thing here in the forum....
To see if a self can be found anywhere.... real.
If you LOOK Paula, as we have talked about what LOOKING is,
can you find this I, or a self, in reality?
Is it true that there is no separate entity, no "me"?

LOOKING is what must be done....
Only you can do it. Its simpler than you imagine.
Just relax and LOOK...

Bill, I talk about the sense of me, that sense is the sense of living! This sense of existence belongs to no one, it doesn't have anything to do with a me.. again the brain thought that it did, but it doesn't, still can't find the one typing these words. Typing is happening, breathing is happening, pain is happening..it's all just happening.

Observation will continue until it doesn't.
Thank you Bill,
Namaste

[Bill]

Hello Paula,

After reading your last reply, I can't think of any more questions for you.
What we are here for is to see if a self can be found and you've expressed over and over that you cannot find
one in real life. Like as you wrote here:

Experiencing sensations arise that are labeled sad, anxiety, fear, etc..all of these belong to life. The mind thought that it belonged to a "me" and if the me went so would these feelings and thoughts, but there is no me, there is only this.... freedom is knowing nothing is wrong. Life doesn't make mistakes, only a fearful thought will judge what is happening, but truly nothing is really happening. I don't know all these words and insights just flew out of me this morning.

Bill, I talk about the sense of me, that sense is the sense of living! This sense of existence belongs to no one, it doesn't have anything to do with a me.. again the brain thought that it did, but it doesn't, still can't find the one typing these words. Typing is happening, breathing is happening, pain is happening..it's all just happening.

I would like for you to answer the final questions, unless for some reason you don't feel you're ready for them.
If there is any fear or expectations lingering, they should show up here.

Please take your time with each one and give it your best thorough answer.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?


Look forward to your answers...

[paulagsell]

Hello Bill, I was unable to respond earlier to your post, had internet connection problems. I will take some time to digest these questions. If I'm not ready for the questions you will know by the response.

Thank you,
Namaste.

[paulagsell]

Bill, I may not be back for a few days. My daughter is ill and will be at hospital.

<3
Namaste,
Paula

[Bill]

I wish you and your daughter well Paula... This will be here and we can pick back up whenever you are ready.

Sending love to you both.
Bill