Seeking a Guide : )

[Kallie]

A bit more rambling. Mind is also seen now as an elaborate story teller. While it is fun to watch or read a story now and then as entertainment or distraction, it is seen now that the stories it was making up for this vessel were no more real that the novels I am reading.
Nap now.
x0x
K

[goneforgood]

Good Morning Karen,

I am well, thankyou, and hope that you are too.

Thankyou for your report on the labelling function of the mind.

You have still not done the Choice Point exercise I asked you to re-do in my last post. Perhaps you misunderstood me? Here it is again:

Take two objects/possibilities of which you might ordinarily choose e.g.: tea or coffee, blue pen or black pen, salt or pepper. Sit with these objects in front of you, and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

Tell me what occurs in your direct experience. No speculating. No imagining. Tell me what you are choosing between and what happens. Do not use the word “mind” or “brain”, as these are concepts and do not occur in direct experience.

So that we stay on track, and for ease of reading, please learn to use the Quote function to copy and paste my questions into your answering thread, and then answer each of them one by one.

This is how it works:
Create a new Post Reply window
Go to my post (scroll down – it is below your new window) and highlight the text you want to quote
Click on the BLUE QUOTE button in top RH corner of my window
You will see that the quote has been inserted into your Reply Window between two [/quote] marks.
When you Preview your reply (the button at the bottom of your reply window), you will see these quotes appear in pink boxes, as they do once you have Submitted your reply.

If that feels cumbersome, please copy and paste the section of my message you are replying to, then write your reply underneath.

Thankyou Karen.
I look forward to reading what you discover in today’s looking.

With Love, Robin

[Kallie]

Good Day Robin,

Here we go!

Take two objects/possibilities of which you might ordinarily choose e.g.: tea or coffee, blue pen or black pen, salt or pepper. Sit with these objects in front of you, and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

Tell me what occurs in your direct experience. No speculating. No imagining. Tell me what you are choosing between and what happens. Do not use the word “mind” or “brain”, as these are concepts and do not occur in direct experience.

With these choices it is easy. Spontaneous, automatic, they are preferences based on memory. Enjoying a hot cup of tea now, warm china against my hand, warm liquid warms tummy. Black over blue, again, habit, preference. Salt & no matter how someone seasons something more is always added.

That's all I've got.
Have a great day/night. Never quite sure what time it is where you are~
Love,
Karen

[goneforgood]

Hell Karen,

Thankyou for using the quote function in your reply.

You are investigating who or what decides, and I am pointing, showing you where to look.

Spontaneous, automatic, they are preferences based on memory.

Was there thinking happening? Is memory just more thoughts, or something different?
Was there a YOU there, choosing?
At what moment did the body move to act on the choice taken?

Let's look again:

Take a fresh pair of objects (an apple and an orange, or two pairs of shoes, socks, or some other pair of similar objects).
Place the pair of objects in front of you.
You are going to choose which one of the pair to pick up.

What thoughts happen?
Is there hesitation, doubt, change of mind….?
What sensations come and go in the body?
At what moment in the process does the body move and pick up the object?
Can you find in your direct experience the exact moment when the decision was made?

Really sit and get inside the experience of what is happening. Be curious. Be willing to discover new information that you haven’t seen before.
Slow it down. There is no hurry to find “the answer”. It is the process itself you are investigating.
Take your time. Do the exercise more than once if you need to.
There is much to notice here, Karen.

Please give me a full report of what happens.

With Love and curiosity,
Robin

[Kallie]

Hi Robin,

Take a fresh pair of objects (an apple and an orange, or two pairs of shoes, socks, or some other pair of similar objects).
Place the pair of objects in front of you.
You are going to choose which one of the pair to pick up.

What thoughts happen?
Is there hesitation, doubt, change of mind….?
What sensations come and go in the body?
At what moment in the process does the body move and pick up the object?
Can you find in your direct experience the exact moment when the decision was made?

Apple & orange, both in front of me.
Ahh sweets. Seeing the vibrant colors. Smelling the sweet fragrance. Mouth salivating, wanting to eat one or both. Taking the apple. No one really choosing. The decision to eat the apple was made before you asked the question. No doubt. Eat one almost every night.

Kallie wrote:Spontaneous, automatic, they are preferences based on memory.

Was there thinking happening? Is memory just more thoughts, or something different?
Was there a YOU there, choosing?
At what moment did the body move to act on the choice taken?

This morning there was no conscious decision making going on, no thoughts, at least none that I ( no I ) was aware of. Almost like the apple tonight, the decision was made before the question was asked. It was automatic. There was simply going to kitchen, boiling water, pouring water into cup, taking tea cup here to computer, embraced it as it warmed my hands & replied to you.

Is memory just more thoughts, or something different?

I see how memory is just more thoughts. Memory is stored stories, ideas, preferences etc. GOOD POINT, Robin. I have sometimes wished I could erase the hard drive of memory. Language is a real mind bender. LOL. Fortunately this entity has been able to release a lot of the old ideas this year, some of it was hard, but with help they were able to be seen how they were just made up stories, sometimes by "me" and sometimes "me" buying into other peoples made up stories. I do see people suffering due to memories that they cannot/will not let go of, good or bad. In reference to this paragraph please note, that it is not I or me that writes this, but for the sake of sanity (?) or insanity... Either way there is smiling happenin'

I am seeing a bit more each day how it's all done & dusted, all the choices have already been made. The essence, life, etc that runs thru all that is knows all that will happen in each moment.

I'll be playing with this till I hear from you again.

I look forward to the next round. Thanks Robin. Keep pointing away!

With Love & Big Hugs,
Karen

[goneforgood]

Hi Karen,

Glad to hear you’re having fun looking.

Ahh sweets. Seeing the vibrant colors. Smelling the sweet fragrance. Mouth salivating, wanting to eat one or both. Taking the apple. No one really choosing. The decision to eat the apple was made before you asked the question. No doubt. Eat one almost every night.

I’m not clear on how this worked for you.
Did you know you would choose the apple before you sat down? Or is that comment “The decision to eat the apple was made before you asked the question. No doubt. Eat one almost every night” a thought that came afterwards?

There was simply going to kitchen, boiling water, pouring water into cup, taking tea cup here to computer, embraced it as it warmed my hands & replied to you.

Good to see!

Let’s look at another scenario:

Raise your right arm (or don't). In that process of raising the right arm or not, a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn't). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea "I just chose to (not) raise my right arm" come after the event itself?

Tell me what you notice.

I see how memory is just more thoughts. Memory is stored stories, ideas, preferences etc

Very good. Just more thoughts.
Can a thought do anything? Can a thought think? Is there a thinker, or do thoughts just happen?

I look forward to hearing.
With Love, Robin

[Kallie]

Hi Robin,

I’m not clear on how this worked for you.
Did you know you would choose the apple before you sat down? Or is that comment “The decision to eat the apple was made before you asked the question. No doubt. Eat one almost every night” a thought that came afterwards?

It was known the apple would be eaten before the question was asked, before I sat down.

Maybe certain examples are different. We've just happened to hit on a couple that are routine for me, that are clearly automatic.

The next one is not, routine.

Raise your right arm (or don't). In that process of raising the right arm or not, a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn't). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea "I just chose to (not) raise my right arm" come after the event itself?

Ok. Sitting in chair. Read your instructions. Raise arm. Hmmm. Cannot pinpoint the actual moment of choice to raise arm & definitely no actual entity that appears to be making the choice. No the chooser cannot be found. I see what you are pointing to? The event of raising or not raising arm would essentially be a non event, end of story, if the toying with the idea afterwards was not activated.

Can a thought do anything? Can a thought think? Is there a thinker, or do thoughts just happen?

Thoughts definitely just happen, without prompting, without a thinker. When I woke up this morning the first thought that came thru was about this kid I sometimes work with, totally random & "I" thought WTF, where did you come from? As quickly as it came, since it found no one to play with, it quickly left. No, a thought cannot in & of itself cannot do anything, nor can it think.

I'm going to my closet this morning with the intent of looking, where choosing & decision making sometimes seems to come to a grinding halt. This should be interesting. I will report back asap, unless I am rendered useless & left in a heap in the corner. LOL!

Be well Robin. Thanks for your help & pointing. I feel like I have a million questions, but it seems that the process is bringing the answers forth. Patience, K : ) I'll be back soon.

With Love & Hugs,
Karen

[Kallie]

Robin,

This was the same exercise from last night, but just used in my closet of clothes.

goneforgood wrote:Take a fresh pair of objects (an apple and an orange, or two pairs of shoes, socks, or some other pair of similar objects).
Place the pair of objects in front of you.
You are going to choose which one of the pair to pick up.

What thoughts happen?
Is there hesitation, doubt, change of mind….?
What sensations come and go in the body?
At what moment in the process does the body move and pick up the object?
Can you find in your direct experience the exact moment when the decision was made?

Lots of thoughts going on. Lots of hesitation, doubt & change of mind. Confusion. Wow, wanting to stay in robe. Thoughts that are part of the decision making process: What's the weather like outside? What will we be doing today? Walking, working, going to a party? The ever elusive decision maker says get rid of some of this shit~ & based on that thought, action has already been taken. When weather has been confirmed & task at hand determined, choice is made, though sometimes that decision is changed. Doubt, change of mind. Another set of processes occurs & another choice is made. I know this is a trite example, but this is a place where choosing is not as apparently automatic, but the process of thought is. A learning experience 'bout to happen?

Thanks again Robin. I am burning to see : )

With Love,
Karen

[Kallie]

Hi Robin,

Again!

goneforgood wrote:Can a thought do anything? Can a thought think? Is there a thinker, or do thoughts just happen?

'I had thought about this on my way to town & wanted to clarify the sentence below. Sort of implies that the thought itself thought this, but it was just additional commentary, additional thoughts. Never ending supply of fodder with which to make stuff up with.

Thoughts definitely just happen, without prompting, without a thinker. When I woke up this morning the first thought that came thru was about this kid I sometimes work with, totally random & "I" thought WTF, where did you come from? As quickly as it came, since it found no one to play with, it quickly left. No, a thought cannot in & of itself cannot do anything, nor can it think.

You got a rambler Robin. LOL. Nap now! Chat soon.

With Love,
Karen

[goneforgood]

Hello again, Karen.

I am going to shift the focus today – away from the mind, and into the body.

Please put aside 30 minutes for this exercise.

Describe for me what is happening RIGHT NOW inside your body.
Feel the sensations in your toes. Find the most exact words you can to describe them.
DO NOT HURRY. Stop and watch and feel what is actually happening.
Work your way SLOWLY up from your toes right through to your head.
When thoughts distract you, redirect your attention back to the INSIDE of your body, and keep on going.

These are very specific instructions. I am not asking for your thoughts about the experience. I am asking for an accurate detailed description of your Direct Observed Experience.
No rambling. No chatting. No making stuff up.

I look forward to your carefully worded report.

With Love, Robin

[Kallie]

Hi Robin,

Please put aside 30 minutes for this exercise.

Describe for me what is happening RIGHT NOW inside your body.
Feel the sensations in your toes. Find the most exact words you can to describe them.
DO NOT HURRY. Stop and watch and feel what is actually happening.
Work your way SLOWLY up from your toes right through to your head.
When thoughts distract you, redirect your attention back to the INSIDE of your body, and keep on going.

Good morning. Just woke up. Sipping hot tea.

Feet warm, feel tightness of socks on calves. Stretch legs, knees crack. Cross legs. Sensation in bowel area. Back itchy. Stomach empty, some sensation & some noise. Feel of soft fabric against skin. Breathing in & out thru nose slowly, deeply. Feel the chest expand on inhalation & contract on exhale. Deep breath all the way down, expanding belly. Stretch. Yawn. Arch back. Feels good. Noticing of muscles in back. Some tightness. Some cracking. Eyes closed in relaxation, except for when typing. Head finds resting spot on back of chair. Head chilly & sweaty. Tingling in fingers. Arms & hands cold. Tea warm on throat. Stuffiness in nose. Uncross & recross legs, put hands in between legs to warm. Feel roughness of cuticles. Scratch face. Stomach still grumbling. Scratch itchy shoulder & neck.

Must go now to take care of morning rituals for the body : )

With Love & Appreciation,
Karen

[goneforgood]

Hi Karen,

Good. Now let’s go in further.

Can you feel where your brain is? Not by picturing a diagram of it, but by looking for sensations INSIDE the body.
Does it exist in your felt experience, before thought or words?
If there are sensations, what do they feel like?
Without the label “Brain”, what do you experience?

Please answer as fully as possible.
And no making stuff up.

Look forward to hearing.

With Love, Robin

[Kallie]

Hi Robin,

Can you feel where your brain is? Not by picturing a diagram of it, but by looking for sensations INSIDE the body.
Does it exist in your felt experience, before thought or words?
If there are sensations, what do they feel like?
Without the label “Brain”, what do you experience?

Took my time with this one. Sat down. Thoughts come & go. Thoughts simmer down.

No just where my brain is located was not observed by sensation. Very different than feeling the sensations of other body parts. The only sensation felt was an itch on the top of head. There was nothing else, zero. Without the label "brain" thoughts just came & went & whatever automatically happens in the body, happened, is happening.


Thanks Robin. Hope all is well. I look forward to hearing from you.
x0x
K

[goneforgood]

Good Morning Karen.

Took my time with this one. Sat down.

Very good.

No just where my brain is located was not observed by sensation.

So, in YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE, does brain exist?

Without the label "brain" thoughts just came & went & whatever automatically happens in the body, happened, is happening.

So, thoughts observed, body happening. Is that accurate?

Very different than feeling the sensations of other body parts.

OK. Let’s look closer at these now.

Can you feel “nerves”? Do nerves exist in your direct experience? Without the words “nerves”, what do you feel?

Can you find “liver” and “kidney” in the same manner?

What other sensations do you experience? Can you experience them without labelling and thought?

Very good, Karen.
I look forward to your reply.
With Love, Robin

[Kallie]

Hello amiga!

So, in YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE, does brain exist?

From Direct Experience alone, the honest answer would have to be no. It could not be found. LOL~

Kallie wrote: Without the label "brain" thoughts just came & went & whatever automatically happens in the body, happened, is happening.

So, thoughts observed, body happening. Is that accurate?

While sitting & being quiet looking for bodily sensations of the brain, yes, thoughts were observed & body was doing what it does.

Can you feel “nerves”? Do nerves exist in your direct experience? Without the words “nerves”, what do you feel?

Can you find “liver” and “kidney” in the same manner?

What other sensations do you experience? Can you experience them without labelling and thought?

In direct experience, The nerves, liver, kidney, bladder, pancreas, etc cannot be "felt", UNLESS they are poked or prodded as was my liver on Monday. In direct experience the systems of the body, organs, nerves, synapses etc.. function silently in the background, again, UNLESS there is lots of movement or distress in which case physical feelings & sensations may manifest via pressure, pain. Bladder makes it known when it is full. A pinched nerve will make itself known.

Hope this isn't a babble but it it interesting how some but not all of the body /systems parts can be felt, at least by "me".

Without further speculation from this end, I will bid you adieu & let you do what you do, guide & point~ : )

With Love,
Karen