Requesting a guide

[Devina]

Wow, that's quite a story! Yes, everything can exist without a story of self. And thought isn't needed to get things done - in fact, it seems like when there is an emergency, thought goes silent. Good alert noticing here.

*In perception this feeling of me is only coming with thinking, and with thoughts; otherwise it isn’t there and it seems to only point to more thoughts about itself... Everything I identify or identify with brings this I into being and yet perceptually there is no finding it. Now it feels like everything going thru my head is fiction based on fiction.

This is fabulous.

Over and Over I sat with this and looked for the I but then I realized it was only appearing with the thought and that’s why I couldn’t find it just sitting there not thinking. And then it was seen clearly that without thought ‘I’ is not there… and I know there must be more to explore with that recognition; like I feel like I should do something else with this seeing but not sure what.

This is related to the above. If a thought doesn't refer to a self, what happens?

Great looking in direct experience today! Keep it up...

[Cheryl]

what happens to a thought that doesn't refer to itself? the thought disappears. holding to that question, started to try to figure it out by asking how does a thought refer to itself. then I recalled that I was to bypass mind, really. so I tried to just hold the question in thought but kept finding myself in the middle of some other thinking. And there it was... the thought that doesn't refr to itself disappears.

[Devina]

Do any thoughts stick around or do they all disappear?

If a thought doesn't refer to Cheryl in any way, what happens?

[Cheryl]

Do any thoughts stick around or do they all disappear?

*They all disappear, they may appear in another time in another form but they all disappear; well except for maybe the “I”. it seems to always be lurking there or nearby! 

If a thought doesn't refer to Cheryl in any way, what happens?

*Not sure, feels as if they all refer to Cheryl. hmmm...

[Devina]

but they all disappear; well except for maybe the “I”. it seems to always be lurking there or nearby!

Investigate this one. Is it true? Can a self be found lurking somewhere between thoughts?

[Cheryl]

Investigate this one. Is it true? Can a self be found lurking somewhere between thoughts?

Hmm, it feels as if the self-thought is always waiting to latch onto whatever thought comes along that it can relate to but i guess since 'i' seems to be there whenever there is thought I really don't know.. Ok, directly, no there isn't anything lurking. That was just a thought, too. good grief..

[Cheryl]

Its weird there's this underlying feeling that i'm trying to see something that is not the truth..

[Devina]

It's an inquiry, not instruction. :) Absolutely check to see if it's true.

The experience on the bus, of no "I" doing anything - is that still happening now? Check and see, and describe each moment. Can the word "I" be left out of the description? Sitting, listening, looking...?

[Devina]

Then, even further, can the assumption of an "I" be left out? Just sensations, sounds, visuals?

[Devina]

Can experience be observed even more simply, merely as is-ness?

[Cheryl]

It's an inquiry, not instruction. :) Absolutely check to see if it's true.

*Yeh, if I already saw it was the truth I wouldn’t be looking. There’s this skepticism; what if I’m being brainwashed, what if this is all some sort of situation where if I believe enuf that there is no me, I’ll finally see it. Maybe ‘no me’ will end up being just another thought believed in.. And yet there are so many times when there is a feeling of having had or being on the verge of the tiniest of ‘glimpses’. So I’ll just ‘keep on keepin’ on’ as they say! 

The experience on the bus, of no "I" doing anything - is that still happening now? Check and see, and describe each moment. Can the word "I" be left out of the description? Sitting, listening, looking...?

*Generally speaking it does feel like there is an I there although I did read one of the LU quotes under Direct Experience about who is thinker of thoughts, doer of actions etc. this morning. So, have been pondering this. It feels like I’m typing but recently I’ve been more aware that some doing is getting done without attending to it. But when I did one of the exercises that said to lift your hand and move it, it still feels like there is a me doing it.
But back to your question:
Haha, am doing everything to avoid answering…. (running from the room screaming… :D )
After stretching, there wasn’t a decision to stretch there it just came without thought. Now I’m typing, something is typing, typing is happening. “Typing is happening” doesn’t sound/feel true.
Taking a sip of coffee, no decision to take a sip, sipping just happening. I looked over at the cup picked it up and sipped, put it back down. No decision persay to put it back down. It feels like I can be left out of some things but not others.

Then, even further, can the assumption of an "I" be left out? Just sensations, sounds, visuals?

*There have been glimpses of that, of leaving I out but it feels artificial mostly. I say mostly because like I said earlier there have been these sort of glimpses but maybe there is a little subtle fear of opening up to that because of the skepticism? Hmm..

[Cheryl]

Then, even further, can the assumption of an "I" be left out? Just sensations, sounds, visuals?

I understand what you mean and it seems really huge and for some reason brought tears with it..

[Devina]

...there have been these sort of glimpses but maybe there is a little subtle fear of opening up to that because of the skepticism? Hmm..

There will always be a story about why looking isn't good enough, it's too hard, what if it's just belief... thoughts will never be satisfied. It's waffling, avoidance. Reality is already undeniably right there - look!

Now I’m typing, something is typing, typing is happening. “Typing is happening” doesn’t sound/feel true.

Why not? Is typing not happening? :)

Taking a sip of coffee, no decision to take a sip, sipping just happening. I looked over at the cup picked it up and sipped, put it back down. No decision persay to put it back down. It feels like I can be left out of some things but not others.

Okay. What others? With a list of what the self does, where it might be, each item can be investigated.

Then, even further, can the assumption of an "I" be left out? Just sensations, sounds, visuals?

I understand what you mean and it seems really huge and for some reason brought tears with it..

What if there really is no self? If it's how things already work, would anything really change?

[Cheryl]

Ok, these last questions you sent will take some focus, so i'd like to take a little time and will respond later.

again, thank you so very much <3

[Cheryl]

There will always be a story about why looking isn't good enough, it's too hard, what if it's just belief... thoughts will never be satisfied. It's waffling, avoidance. Reality is already undeniably right there - look!

*And so, skepticism is simply another thought… but but...

Why not? Is typing not happening? :)

*I’m guessing because the typing is an intentional act and ‘typing is happening’ sounds like I was just kind of sitting around and all of a sudden the fingers jumped to the keyboard and started typing… there is an image I have in the head of what ‘typing is happening’ looks like..

Okay. What others? With a list of what the self does, where it might be, each item can be investigated.

*Ok, so there was a decision to type based on receiving the responses and the questions. Where did the decision originate? Here, it originated here somewhere but that somewhere still can’t be found through direct experience. But you are indicating that there is no me deciding even tho there was a decision made? That doesn’t seem real because it seems like something has to be making the decision, some kind of intelligence that makes decisions… Is that true? I don’t know. If there is some kind of intelligence, I don’t even know where to look…

What if there really is no self? If it's how things already work, would anything really change?

*If there really is no self that would mean I no longer can be complicit with the illusion that there is something with control in this life. It would mean that everything I thought I had accomplished and all the guilt abt things not accomplished would be attributable to no one, to nothing.. Perhaps on a functional level things wouldn’t change… Feels kind of like if I could shut off my brain this wouldn’t be so difficult ... i will look further still.