Requesting a guide...Ilona or Pablo please...

[Mettasattva]

"What EXACTLY does the 'me' refer to here?"

Right now... a belief that "I" can't do it, and unpleasent sensations in the body and "I" don't even see, feel or percieve in any way, a behind...

[Paulo]

What EXACTLY does 'the equator' refer to?

What EXACTLY does Santa Claus refer to?

What EXACTLY does the 'me' refer to here?

I need you to wrestle this question and answer it - don't dare turn aside - look it right in the eye and put it down in one sentence -

What EXACTLY does the 'me' refer to here?

[Mettasattva]

"What EXACTLY does 'the equator' refer to?"

The middle of the earth, I don't know actually, I have no direct experience of the equator.

"What EXACTLY does Santa Claus refer to?"

A lie.

[Mettasattva]

"What EXACTLY does the 'me' refer to here?"

I don't know.

[Mettasattva]

Hey

I don't think these questions are working...However I look at this I am not seeing what u guys think I should be. I don't have difficulty with the concept of no self or the concept of imperminance. However I still have the experience or a sense of something having the experience and these questions are not helping me see beyond that. If there even is a beyond that.

To just SAY I don't exist or there isn't a me here doesn't really feel true because there is something whatever that is...who or what are u aiming these questions at?

Are talking to urself? A friend that's done this just said there is no u, which is stupid because ultimatly there may not be a perminate me however in this time/space reality there is a body and mind and the body seems to guide the direction I go in. So there is clearly something else going on...it's not as simple as lying about whether I exist or not.

So if it's all just happening what is guiding me to continue this with u and why haven't I just stopped? why don't I just kill myself? why don't I just start killing everybody? there's no choice apparently, so why am I not doing that?

So after all this, my direct experience tells me that this body and mind are alive for now and although I can't pinpoint where a me is, there is a sense of something choosing, wanting, clinging...

I can not see that I do not exist!

[Mettasattva]

I can also say that I can't see that I exist either...

[Paulo]

What EXACTLY does 'the equator' refer to?"

The middle of the earth, I don't know actually, I have no direct experience of the equator.

The equator is a line drawn on a map. It doesn't exist in direct experience. It doesn't exist in reality.

"What EXACTLY does Santa Claus refer to?"

A lie.

Yes, Santa Claus is a fictional character that we are told exists, and when everyone's in on that lie it's hard to call it for what it is - especially when 'he' brings presents - who would want to give that up. It is believed to be true until we start looking and investigating and question the validity of that character.

"What EXACTLY does the 'me' refer to here?"

I don't know.

All you need to do is just look - look right here and now. And just like looking for Santa Claus. The label 'me', 'self', 'I', doesn't refer to anything in reality. It's just a thought, a concept, an idea.

I don't think these questions are working...

What are your expectations here? What would 'working' look like?

However I still have the experience or a sense of something having the experience

What is it that's having that experience? Actually look. Is there REALLY something having the experience, or is that something ITSELF just an experience?

I can't pinpoint where a me is, there is a sense of something choosing, wanting, clinging...

Does that sense point to something real or is it just another thought, another lie like Santa Claus?

[Mettasattva]

"Yes, Santa Claus is a fictional character that we are told exists, and when everyone's in on that lie it's hard to call it for what it is - especially when 'he' brings presents - who would want to give that up. It is believed to be true until we start looking and investigating and question the validity of that character."

Why do u keep saying things like this, it seems as though u believe I am trying to convince u that I do exist??? I feel like saying I'm my foot or I'm my thoughts just so u can have reason to make a statement like the above.

Also this is not the same as Santa...there has never been (as far as I know) a physical manifestation called Santa, however there is a physical manifestation called mettasattva living a life. Here and now!

"What are your expectations here? What would 'working' look like?"

I'm not going round in this circle again...read the website, seems clear on what is on offer.

"What is it that's having that experience? Actually look. Is there REALLY something having the experience, or is that something ITSELF just an experience?"

Firstly am I looking with my physical eyes? or am I just to think about it? What do u actually mean by look? I'm asking in this way because I am looking and the feed back I get from u is that I'm not so please explain EXACTLY how to look.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS. I could say it's just another experience but what does that mean? I have already stated, many times that I CAN NOT locate a "me' or "I" outside of the body and mind... so the "something" I am refering to is what happens when the body and mind is born and I DON"T KNOW WHAT THAT IS. I'm not going to lie to u or myself and say otherwise, my experience tells me there is choice to some degree, or maybe influance would be a better word. If there is an experience of anger in my body I can either scream and shout or hit someone or breathe and relax...which one happens does seem down to "me'.

"Does that sense point to something real or is it just another thought, another lie like Santa Claus?"

It's all thoughts and u said thinking is real. "I" is just a thought and came about because we like to label things, it's part of the package. "I" is there as long as it's thought but that doesn't mean I'm saying "I" exists.

Take the whole of me apart and yes I would look like a collection of seperate parts, however when put together we have the marvel that we call human...creative and destructive.

"I" is just another word or thought, like the word experience! What does any of it mean? all the words and meanings are made up so how can they explain any of this?

I would understand this if I were convinced that "I" was real, however I'm not and so I don't understand why we are going round in circles. If u look back, I have answered ur questions and I have not denied that "I" doesn't exist as a seperate entity from this body and mind.

What my experience tells me is that "I" is all of it aswell as non of it. I am and I am not!

[Mettasattva]

Thank you :O)

[Gunasara]

Hi Mettasattva,

I'm happy to pick up this thread with you...

If you have any questions from what has gone before then ask away and I'll do my best to review and clarify what has been said...

but if you are happy to, I would like to jump off from here...

Firstly am I looking with my physical eyes? or am I just to think about it? What do u actually mean by look? I'm asking in this way because I am looking and the feed back I get from u is that I'm not so please explain EXACTLY how to look.

here is a very old description of looking:

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

Firstly am I looking with my physical eyes? or am I just to think about it?

so when you are "looking with your physical eyes"... simply notice that seeing is happening
when you are "just thinking about it"... simply notice that thinking is happening (i.e cognizing)
likewise "hearing"
likewise "sensing"

and since the point is the end of stress... then take your time and reply to me when the words are ready to come...

and if you feel stress... notice what is sensed and what is thinking/emotion (cognized)...

[Mettasattva]

Hey

Thanks for taking "me" on.

I'll do my best.

[Mettasattva]

Hey

Seeing – I notice seeing is just happening, I’m not thinking about seeing something, I just see it, It’s automatic, I open my eyes and I see and experience seeing. Me seeing and the seen are one and the same. I can say exactly the same about hearing and sensing…It’s all automatic.

I can also see that thinking just happens also, however this is my sticking point, I can also see that If I choose to I can put thoughts in my head… I can think what I like even though I know it’s just thought. All I am writing here is just thought though there definitely seems to be a direction to the thought process.

The stress comes when I understand that I’m intellectually getting it but not experiencing the freedom of seeing through this illusion and It becomes more stressful the more I intellectually think about it.
When I LOOK and just experience the flow of thoughts/feelings ect… I don’t feel anything, like in meditation I’m just there with it all but as soon as I’m not there with it all I’m just the same, nothing has changed, I feel the same as before I LOOKED.

[Gunasara]

Seeing – I notice seeing is just happening, I’m not thinking about seeing something, I just see it, It’s automatic, I open my eyes and I see and experience seeing. Me seeing and the seen are one and the same. I can say exactly the same about hearing and sensing…It’s all automatic.

yes... it's all just happening

I can also see that thinking just happens also

lovely... thoughts come and go like the wind in the trees...

however this is my sticking point, I can also see that If I choose to I can put thoughts in my head… I can think what I like even though I know it’s just thought. All I am writing here is just thought though there definitely seems to be a direction to the thought process.

so choice happens and there seems to be direction to thoughts... i think we should return to that later to see if choice and direction necessarily mean there must be a mettasattva choosing and directing...

The stress comes when I understand that I’m intellectually getting it but not experiencing the freedom of seeing through this illusion and It becomes more stressful the more I intellectually think about it.

ouch... are there a couple of beliefs in here?... the belief that intellectual understanding of this stuff will help... the expectation (=an imagined future) that you will experience some kind of freedom as a result of seeing through the illusion

the 'contents' of thoughts are not very important for this particular investigation... simply notice that you are thinking rather than seeing, hearing or sensing... and if your thinking is taking you into a future, then draw your attention back into the present... in direct experience, past and future are always simply thinking... awareness that thinking is happening is an important aspect of direct experience...

When I LOOK and just experience the flow of thoughts/feelings ect… I don’t feel anything, like in meditation I’m just there with it all but as soon as I’m not there with it all I’m just the same, nothing has changed, I feel the same as before I LOOKED.

well I would like to try to encourage you to look again... this time lets begin peering at the boundaries between seeing/sensing/thinking...

i know you have looked many times but it's really important to maintain the possibility that this time you may 'see something' that 'you' have never seen before...

you don't need to do anything special... just at various times of the day notice what you are SEEING... have a THINK about how the seeing is happening... FEEL the sensations of your eyes and around your eyes...

when you've done this a few times I'd like you to sit in front of your computer and repeat the SEEING/THINKING/FEELING experiment and just write what you are noticing...

[Mettasattva]

Hey....am in the process... I'm doing each a few times and writing it down as I go...I'll post it all at the same time.

[Mettasattva]

Over the past few days I have been observing what happens when I do the exercises u suggested I do and this is what happened…

Seeing – the eyes tingle and can feel the air, eyelashes felt whilst blinking, shapes, colors, movement is visibly happening. Thoughts are happening in response to the visual happening… feelings are happening in response to the thought and visual happening.

Feeling – emotional response to visual stimuli and thought, as in seeing this feelings arise, and thinking that feelings arise, it is also just happening…

Touch – in this case is happening in response to thought, finger clicking keys in response to thinking, touch also happening in response to body sensation as in finger scratches tip of the nose.
Thoughts and feelings are happening in response to touch.

Thinking – Thought happens, sometimes seemingly on their own and in response to some stimuli, thoughts change and there are some reoccurring thought patterns and again they happen in response to stimuli, even if the stimuli is another thought. Thinking is happening.

The same with hearing….

I have drawn a line under what I actually know, or what I actually experience. “I” is a thought that happens based on past experiences, here and now “I” is thought and thinking is happening.

Imaginatively putting myself in a baby’s position I see that without the labels and the thoughts, it’s all just happening.

Thanku for giving me time with this.