Requesting a Guide

[4connection]

So I just had an experience I wanted to share. This experience seems to repeat regularly and was also in the experience of my mother. As I am going for a walk, "I" trip or stub my toe. Before "I" have beaten myself up and had all sorts of thoughts of damage to my system. This time there was an immediate thought of "Again?", followed with a question of "What is this?" But there was no thought that there is something wrong or "I'm going to have a hard time with this." Just surprise followed by noticing of sensations followed by questioning. So could you talk a bit about repeating patterns in our experience. There may still be a feeling of ownership of the patterns which I am exploring. My sense is that upon looking, there isn't going to be any of that. In the past there has been a personal satisfaction in finding a pattern because it seems to help the "process" unfold and as I write this I am catching myself in trying to prove the existence of the "I" using patterns and processes again...the leaning expert/teacher proving her worth!

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

You said. "There definitely has been something that has lifted off." That's what I'm looking for.

Take the day off. I want to sit with your answers, questions, and latest comment, and go back through the whole thread. If you feel like you need or want to "do something," then look at your own questions, and write what comes up.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Well, I've gone back through everything. I'll address your first post from yesterday. The question of whether you've crossed the gate or not depends on what crossing the gate means. If you assume that it means the point in time when it is first realized there is no separate self, then you went through relatively early in this inquiry.

Technically, at that point, we can begin the process of closing the thread down by having independent verification from other guides, and if you are confirmed, you are given access to certain LU Facebook groups, including one that deals with "aftercare," or, dealing with issues that may arise after the seeing through. The separate self is formed over a long period of time, and it does not just go gentle into that good night sometimes.

However, one of the administrators of these forums posted something not too long ago that I completely agree with, and that is to NOT get someone confirmed as soon as possible and then rush them into aftercare for the rest. Basically, what she said was to do the after-care ourselves as much as possible. I took that to mean that a thread should remain open at least as long as it took to address the big issues that come up immediately after the seeing through. Those big issues are usually doubts about whether the seeing has happened, will it remain, is there anything else that needs to be done, etc., etc., etc.

Many people cross the gate without even fully realizing it. Many times it comes in a series of small realizations, much like yours has. There just seems to be an increasing clarity, and an increased sense of relaxation about "getting" anything. I think that's what is happening with you, so we'll keep the thread open while the process unfolds since you are already somewhat comfortable with me.

As to whether this is "complete," the answer is no. "Jane" is not just one belief to be seen through. Jane is actually a core of some strongly held beliefs, and some weakly held. The initial seeing through drops a lot of the more weakly held ones away, the stronger ones can take a little more time, and some can take even longer. Usually, a lot of the leftover drops away on its own over the course of a few months, and during this time there can still be some seeking behavior, although it doesn't seem to have the intensity it once had.

As to what is needed to support the unfolding, I would just say continue the inquiry for right now, and let's just see what comes up. You've only been at this for a little over two weeks. Some of these threads go on for months without near the progress you've made, and some never go through, and leave. You're a relative newcomer here so don't get in a hurry, and don't think you're behind in some imaginary schedule. There is no blueprint for this process. One thing I found helpful was to read through the archived threads where seeing has happened. I actually read pretty much every archived thread on this forum before I even signed up to be guided, and then popped while reading the Gateless Gatecrashers. It's kind of like being guided many times, with many different techniques. You will see all of your doubts in most every thread.

As to your second post, I'm not sure what you mean by "and was also in the experience of my mother." Aside from that, the fact that you are not as concerned about the body as you maybe were before, that is O.K. Your perspective has broadened now, and some of the little things that preoccupied you before make take on less import now, but you still shouldn't stand in traffic. :)

As to the egoic attempts to re-assemble itself through familiar patterns of behavior, yes, that will happen. It gets a little tiresome and even comical after awhile, but tends to drop away over time.

The important thing to remember if you drop back into Jane mode temporarily, is to keep doing the inquiry. When Jane thoughts pop up such as, "I am blah, blah, blah," just ask the question, "What is it that is saying, 'I am blah, blah, blah,'?"

And of course, all of the above assumes that we actually have any control over thoughts, which you know by now we don't. It just seems as if we do. That is a paradox. The most important thing to know in this process is that you don't have to solve paradoxes of language. They can't be solved. If they could, they would be called problems, not paradoxes. Leave them alone. Trying to solve paradoxes is just more seeking. Roll them up in a cigar and smoke them if you must do something with them.

There is no exercise for today. Just exist as life, which is what you are.

Write what comes up.

Enjoy the day, AS THE DAY.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,
This was very helpful to get an idea of what is next in this process as well as to know that we can keep the thread going for awhile in order to share the further unfoldment as it happens! I thank you for that!

The last couple of days have solidified the knowing that a shift has really happened and, as I have been sharing the experience with a couple of friends, the excitement has built and the "knowing" there is no self has started to really "catch". Today the joy of it started to seep in as I realized how much lighter I was feeling not having to ruminate on the "I" this and that "stuff".

The inquiry is very helpful and I will continue to use it. I do know that "Jane" can be a feisty and stubborn one and there is much curiosity about if this really could be the end of seeking. I have been reading the Gateless Gatecrashers as we have been working but will start reading the threads online also!

Will write more in a day or so as things develop.

With great appreciation!
Jane

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Yes. The joy. That's the other thing I was waiting for. Nice. Write about your doubts, if any.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,

The last day or so has been both highs and lows of experience. Just thought I'd start with that even though it all "just is", the "my" wants to own and talk about the experiences with judgement and labels. The biggest issue seems to be how vibrations encountered throughout the day effect "me". I did lots of driving yesterday and the negativity still pulls "me" in. Then "I" feel bad/guilty. Afterward when I sat with the anger and fear that was there things move and awareness is much clearer now. But in the throws of it there is struggle to find a higher way through. Yesterday I realized it was happening but sometimes I don't know until later "my" vibration has taken a dive. The doubt resides here when the stuck ness comes in. Tomorrow is another competition to attend for my granddaughter and there will be crowds and close quarters again. These seemingly take time afterward to release. There is doubt that I can handle it and thoughts of staying away. I love supporting her though. Help needed here!

I live alone so in my own environment great things are happening and I am more aware of habits not serving me and patterns that are changing. There is much more enjoyment in the moment and enjoyment of just being! I've spent time exploring perceptions that are now changing...perceptions of the body and the care of the body that works in certain ways and how it can now be supported rather than "me" influencing it by doing certain things and trying to make it be different. Also there is looking at family patterns and wondering how they work with no self. Patterns I saw in my parents and now see being worked with in children and grandchildren. How is it that I am blessed in certain ways and challenged in others and friends show different patterns. Not personal, just differences that contribute to the whole and patterns of this lifetime moving Life forward is the conclusion here. Comments?

Ah the nitty gritty of Life!
Jane

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,
Welcome to the ping pong game. Many times after the initial seeing through, there is a period of self-no-self push and pull that seems to happen. The only question is whether there is a separate self playing this ping pong, or is there just ping ponging going on with no apparent players? All of that is allowed in the eternal now. Is there actually a "struggle" going on, or is that just more thoughts showing up?

A lot of the "examining" of this process is normal. Just stay focused on the "who is doing this examining." Isn't it just thought saying that something is being examined?

And in regards to how "relationships" will change, who is in a relationship? Family is still family, emotions about that still show up, experiences come and go, some things change, others stay the same. There is nothing to done, nothing that could be done, and yet doing will take place.

As far as some fear you have of the crowd, look at that as an opportunity. If what is labeled as fear comes up, pull it in like I told you. Think of it as an exercise to do. I think your fear of fear is the only real resistance holding you back now.

Is there any sense of identity here "having" these "struggles, doubts, and fears," or is life just moving along as apparent "struggles, doubts, and fears" right now? Is life also moving along as "joy"? Look closely at that. Do you see this identity, do you hear it, smell it, feel it, or taste it? Read the Sevenfold Reasoning again.

Write what comes up.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

I had some extra "time" today, and decided to re-read the thread. I noticed your mention of attending a sporting event somewhat earlier in the thread, and how it seemed to drain you. I suppose you meant that it was just physically and possibly tiring in some way, and not so much about any fear of crowds, so my latest post about fear might be out of place or irrelevant. Still, if there is any element of fear, whether fear of the draining effect, or anything else, then do the exercise. I still do believe fear is always the biggest source of resistance in this process, and not just your process, but most people's.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,

In sitting with the crowd thing and going behind it there is a feeling of vulnerability and yes, fear. Fear of fear really resonates also. Fear of anger is also present like "people will be rude and I will feel anger". I'm realizing this is not unlike feelings that arise sometimes when driving. Anger is an old family no-no and so fear of getting angry is early programming. These are awarenesses that seem very helpful. Sitting in the moment with emotion is a key.

I am realizing an intention for protection when entering situations like crowds and driving not from the standpoint of fear but from the simple standpoint of putting on a coat when going into the cold. Intention born out of experience and NOT from "self" identity...I'm feeling this familiar energy of intention which blasts through experience which is not born of "self" at all! Another great awareness and realization that there is no "I" involved, just intention operating as it does.

I'm off to my day in the crowds!
Jane

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Yes. All emotions come and go. How could they ever be stopped? Who would stop them? Who is even having them? What even labels them?

How was your day with the crowd?

I'm glad you brought up intention. It does seem to show up. I asked you earlier in the thread to look at "time." I think that's sunk in enough now for us to re-visit it, and look at it from another angle. One of the tougher beliefs to see through is cause and effect. Let's challenge thoughts some more.

Exercise: Look again for proof of time. Do changing colors "outside" prove time is passing?

Look for cause and effect. Is any one thing you look at really causing another? Does wind blowing actually cause the leaves to move? What says that that is "true"?

Talk to me about cause and effect both from the perspective of a doer doing, and from the perspective of the necessity of time for cause and effect to exist.

Now look at intention from the same perspectives.

Raise one of your arms? Did you actually cause that to happen? Look closely.

Write what comes up.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,

Yes, e-motion...just energy in motion. They just move within experience on their own. Although "I" have made plenty of attempts to stop them in my life, I have learned that is impossible! Best to find a way to release through expression rather than hold inside because there can be negative results for the system!

Crowds yesterday were a better experience although I'm not exactly sure why. One situation was more crowded than expected which was a surprise. The other was held in a larger space and was less noisy than usual which seemed easier. Now as I'm writing this I'm also noticing the cause and effect belief that underscores my comments...!!

Your cause and effect questions certainly scramble the perceptions again! In thinking about crowds there seems to be a belief that circumstances effect "my" experience but in reflecting on that it seems as though beliefs about experiences effect experience but if there is no "I" then there is no "my" experience...just experience happening and reaction/response happening within experience...hmmmm...not sure about all this...

It certainly would seem that wind blows causing leaves to move. Leaves don't seem to move otherwise. However there is no evidence of a thing called cause and effect. Probably just a label for a concept we make up for explanation purposes. As far as raising my arm, thought happens then movement. No "I" so both just happening...no cause and effect.

Sensing there are beliefs being jiggled and dislodged here. Will have to continue the exploration today at least! As far as time and light changing, watching the sun come up this morning it is obvious there is no time involved except that we attach that meaning to movement of light...but there is no evidence of time moving.

Off to a breakfast with much pondering happening!
Jane

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Yes, nothing earth-shaking with this stuff. It's just to look at deeply held beliefs.

Just a reminder, to get outside with this stuff.

Let's LOOK at the wind blowing again and break it down into its components this time.
1. A sensation of feeling seems to arise.
2. Thought labels it "wind across the skin."
3. Seeing-which thought labels movement-seems to arise.
4. Thought says "wind blowing through trees."
5. Thought says "wind is causing leaves to move."

Remember the Sevenfold Reasoning.
Did all of the arisings ACTUALLY produce a "wind causing leaves to move"?
Did all of the arisings of sensation and thought ACTUALLY put together a "Jane"?
Aren't there just "leaves moving"?


Let's look at the arm moving again a little closer.

Notice how the thought "move my arm" may SEEM to result in movement, or the exact same thought may SEEM not to result in movement.
Suddenly, the arm may just move. Did the thought ACTUALLY cause anything?
Notice if the arm does actually move, then thought will say, "See, I did move it."



Finally, when you finish the exercises, I want you to sit quietly, and "do" nothing.
Remain in the state of alert, expansive, and vibrant peace.

[4connection]

Hi Hopefulness,
Yes, I see this! Nature just happens...two things interacting is just that, interaction...or seeming interaction with which we then make up a story about cause and effect! Predictor and prey are the same vibration coming together nothing more. The magnetic nature of nature! Wind blowing, leaves moving just happen and we make up the story.

When I play with raising the hand there mostly is just impulse rather than even language in the form of thought to raise my hand. It just happens also...and making up of the story around it to justify our position is the old knee jerk response about it.

With this I have been thinking and wondering again about the Law of Attraction which I used to play with a lot. Have been just revisiting that and how things just happen. I used to work with changing the thought to change the attraction point and what was coming. There were some successes and some not so successful attempts with it. Now realizing that thought just comes and is unchangeable, I'm exploring how that really does work. Any comments you have would be appreciated!

Jane

[Hopefulness]

We'll look at control issues a little more later. I'm going to be tied up with some other things today, so I want you to not "explore" anything for the rest of the day. Go outside, sit down for a little while, and "do" nothing.
Remain in the state of alert, expansive, and vibrant peace.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

O.K. I finally got everything done. So how was your day off from the "work"? I've been thinking you might enjoy and benefit from some guided visualizations. I found Scott Kiloby's Unfindable Inquiry series very helpful in stabilizing this process. I recommend you do this one first on the self http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwAVOYVMac and then, redo it again with fear as the object to be found. If you want to shake it up a little bit after that then go to number 4 on the body. It is a very specific guidance for disconnecting from the sensory ghost.

Write what comes up.