Zen Of Chaos-this is your thread

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

This is why i ask how much is practice and how much is realizing the truth. The truth should be simple (and that's how it's touted) so i think, why does it all seem so effortful. Maybe i just have a spiritual learning disability!

Seeing that the personage/entity "ZOC" is made up, is not so much "truth", just self-evident (excuse the pun). :)

You've looked and not found a "ZOC" and yet the experience of being "ZOC" trundles on. You're waiting for evidence, something that radically changes your experience - and why not - I did too.

Wherefore art the magic bullet?

Well, try this: look at your hand? Just look at your hand for a minute. Of course, I said "your hand" and it probably feels right now like your hand, as you look at it. No?

But this hand has no owner. There is no-one to claim it. There is no-one looking at the hand.

Looking at the hand, notice that you're holding on to the experience of "being ZOC", it's safe and known - why wouldn't you. But you can also drop it like a stone.

You don't need to know how to drop it, just do what seems to be required to drop the persona "ZOC", let it fade.

You'll know it's happening when the hand starts to be not yours, but a hand. And there's only a fading someone watching the hand, a fading idea.

If that happens, let it happen as far as you wish to.

Let me know what happens.

best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hi ZOC,

Seeing that the personage/entity "ZOC" is made up, is not so much "truth", just self-evident (excuse the pun). :)

You've looked and not found a "ZOC" and yet the experience of being "ZOC" trundles on.

yes yes so true.

You're waiting for evidence, something that radically changes your experience - and why not - I did too.

yes, again its true.

Wherefore art the magic bullet?

lol. where indeed!

Well, try this: look at your hand? Just look at your hand for a minute. Of course, I said "your hand" and it probably feels right now like your hand, as you look at it. No?

But this hand has no owner. There is no-one to claim it. There is no-one looking at the hand.

Looking at the hand, notice that you're holding on to the experience of "being ZOC", it's safe and known - why wouldn't you. But you can also drop it like a stone.

You don't need to know how to drop it, just do what seems to be required to drop the persona "ZOC", let it fade.

You'll know it's happening when the hand starts to be not yours, but a hand. And there's only a fading someone watching the hand, a fading idea.

If that happens, let it happen as far as you wish to.

Let me know what happens.

best wishes,
John

think this is my favourite post of yours yet! it seemed to resonate a bit more. cuts a bit more to the heart of things.

over the last couple of days it's become clearer that there is an unconscious unwillingness to really let go into this. To drop the experience of ZOC. It's a clinging on to the safety of having an orientation no matter how difficult that orientation is.

Have also realised that i'm trying to avoid reality. hoping that "i" don't have to be a part of it, that I can somehow sit it out on the sidelines in a safe place. there is a fear of reality. my whole psychological life i think i've been hiding from it. sticking my head in the sand. Now i'm slowly realising there is no choice here. You can hide but you can't run. Then hiding only gets you so far.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

think this is my favourite post of yours yet! it seemed to resonate a bit more. cuts a bit more to the heart of things.

over the last couple of days it's become clearer that there is an unconscious unwillingness to really let go into this. To drop the experience of ZOC. It's a clinging on to the safety of having an orientation no matter how difficult that orientation is.

Have also realised that i'm trying to avoid reality. hoping that "i" don't have to be a part of it, that I can somehow sit it out on the sidelines in a safe place. there is a fear of reality. my whole psychological life i think i've been hiding from it. sticking my head in the sand. Now i'm slowly realising there is no choice here. You can hide but you can't run. Then hiding only gets you so far.

It's good that you've seen that. Each one comes to this in a unique fashion. Some jump in with both feet, some kicking & screaming, and every way in between. At some stage, there can be a giving up on maintaining the persona. After all, it takes so much bloody time and energy, and it's not like we even like the persona we're holding up! LOL :)

Ah, but better the devil you know? :)

Without the persona, what's left?

That's when the fear kicks in. The unknown is felt. But, if you're feeling brave :) follow that feeling some of the way, but only as far as feels right.

My guess is you've already see this, but haven't yet allowed it to "sink into your soul" as it were.

But, hey, it's not mandatory. No-one need do this. At all.

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hi ZOC,

It's good that you've seen that. Each one comes to this in a unique fashion. Some jump in with both feet, some kicking & screaming, and every way in between.

it's a bit like getting into the sea on a cold day. you can feel motivated to jump in but then you feel how cold the water is on your feet and run back inland and wrap yourself in a towel!

the mind likes to say i'm not ready.

At some stage, there can be a giving up on maintaining the persona. After all, it takes so much bloody time and energy, and it's not like we even like the persona we're holding up! LOL :)

I hear that! it doesn't really feel up to 'me' though. If it was a choice I'd give it up today. Or at least sometimes it feels like a superficial choice and parts of the persona can be dropped but ultimately not at its core.

Ah, but better the devil you know? :)

Without the persona, what's left?

just a brain and body running around doing it's thing not conforming to imagined personality traits that govern how it should behave. A 'free spirit''?!

That's when the fear kicks in. The unknown is felt. But, if you're feeling brave :) follow that feeling some of the way, but only as far as feels right.

My guess is you've already see this, but haven't yet allowed it to "sink into your soul" as it were.

But, hey, it's not mandatory. No-one need do this. At all.

With best wishes,
John

yeah i think you are right. Sometimes i'm not sure if it was seen or not but i think that is just the doubt. yeah i can tell that with some things i'm not letting it sink into the soul. I keep it at arms length because i'm afraid of really letting it in. The control element mainly I keep at arms length because I get scared that there is a me that will lose control or a me stuck without control.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

yeah i think you are right. Sometimes i'm not sure if it was seen or not but i think that is just the doubt. yeah i can tell that with some things i'm not letting it sink into the soul. I keep it at arms length because i'm afraid of really letting it in. The control element mainly I keep at arms length because I get scared that there is a me that will lose control or a me stuck without control.

Maybe now is a good time to pause, have a swig of water, a bite of the apple and take look at the map. :)

What are we really looking to see here? And what might that mean?

Write whatever shows up.

Best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hi ZOC,

Maybe now is a good time to pause, have a swig of water, a bite of the apple and take look at the map. :)

What are we really looking to see here? And what might that mean?

Write whatever shows up.

Best wishes,
John

What are we really looking to see here? To see through a belief that there is a me running life. And if there is no me and no you then there is just life playing itself out. There is only awareness of life lifeing.

what might that mean? It means that there is no person that is responsible for anything. Goodbye to self-referential thinking. no blaming, no shaming, no egoing. A mind that breaks free of it's self-imposed shackles. the burden of personality and beliefs about self. that's not to say everything will be bliss, but simply that life isn't so destructive and fearful. afterall what would be there to protect?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

What are we really looking to see here? To see through a belief that there is a me running life. And if there is no me and no you then there is just life playing itself out. There is only awareness of life lifeing.

Let's take a look.

"To see through a belief that there is a me running life."

Is that true?
What is a belief made of?
Could a belief be mythical like a unicorn?
What would a "belief in a me" look like, sound like, feel like?
Can it be found?

You had a look for "ZOC" and couldn't find "ZOC" and the body/brain carry on. Have a good look, not for "ZOC" but the belief in "ZOC".

You won't find it. But look anyway and tell me what happened.

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hi ZOC,

Let's take a look.

"To see through a belief that there is a me running life."

Is that true?

it feels like it! it seems like there is a centre, wherever the body goes there is always the centre of experience that comes with it. In short, I don't know if it true or not. There is that experience I just described but no finding the thing at this centre. those two positions are in conflict so i don't know if it is true.

What is a belief made of?

It's a thought that#s taken to be true. It's an evidence based thought, quite computational. Last night i looked at the towel on the radiator and said "i believe the towel is dry". i came to this belief because it looked dry and i had felt the top of it and that part felt dry. But i didn't actually know that unequivocally so it was only a belief rather than truth.

Could a belief be mythical like a unicorn?

yes. people believe in the flying spaghetti monster! lol

What would a "belief in a me" look like, sound like, feel like?
Can it be found?

a belief can't be found. it's probably a stored neural pattern but that is logical thinking. the belief in the dry towel wasn't anywhere or made of anything that could be sensed other than manifesting as the statement 'the towel is dry'.

You had a look for "ZOC" and couldn't find "ZOC" and the body/brain carry on. Have a good look, not for "ZOC" but the belief in "ZOC".

You won't find it. But look anyway and tell me what happened.

With best wishes,
John

nope can't find it. it's just like a way of understanding the world (eg I'm over here, tall blonde with the legs is over there). the actual belief in 'me' can't be pin pointed anywhere.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Zoc,

"To see through a belief that there is a me running life."
Is that true?

it feels like it! it seems like there is a centre, wherever the body goes there is always the centre of experience that comes with it. In short, I don't know if it true or not. There is that experience I just described but no finding the thing at this centre. those two positions are in conflict so i don't know if it is true.

Good observing.

What is a belief made of?

It's a thought that's taken to be true. It's an evidence based thought, quite computational. Last night i looked at the towel on the radiator and said "i believe the towel is dry". i came to this belief because it looked dry and i had felt the top of it and that part felt dry. But i didn't actually know that unequivocally so it was only a belief rather than truth.

Nice. Basically, a belief is a bog standard assumption, that's all. We don't believe, we assume.
But as you pointed out with the towel, the assumption doesn't stack up to the evidence.
(great example by the way)

Could a belief be mythical like a unicorn?

yes. people believe in the flying spaghetti monster! lol

:D I've seen it.

What would a "belief in a me" look like, sound like, feel like?
Can it be found?

a belief can't be found. it's probably a stored neural pattern but that is logical thinking. the belief in the dry towel wasn't anywhere or made of anything that could be sensed other than manifesting as the statement 'the towel is dry'.

Yes, can't be found. Just an assumption, this time about who we are. We don't need to believe it, we are it - apparently. :)

You had a look for "ZOC" and couldn't find "ZOC" and the body/brain carry on. Have a good look, not for "ZOC" but the belief in "ZOC".

You won't find it. But look anyway and tell me what happened.

nope can't find it. it's just like a way of understanding the world (eg I'm over here, tall blonde with the legs is over there). the actual belief in 'me' can't be pin pointed anywhere.

So, sit with the full implications of that.

Keep an open door.

Let it in as far only as it comes, that there is neither a "ZOC", nor a belief in "ZOC" to be counted upon.

Just sit with it. The feeling might be the same, but the meaning has taken a hike to leave only the feeling without a name.

Sit in that space of no name, just to see what it feels like.

Share with me when you're done.

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Doesn't seem like 4 days since your last post. I did try post yesterday but i dwelled too long and it lost the post. Haven't had much to report really. Have been sitting with 'no zoc and no belief in zoc'. It is nice to not have to find and eliminate a belief. I drifted back to looking at thoughts, to watching them rise with no thinker of thoughts. that's it really. Just wanted to check in.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

Doesn't seem like 4 days since your last post. I did try post yesterday but i dwelled too long and it lost the post. Haven't had much to report really. Have been sitting with 'no zoc and no belief in zoc'. It is nice to not have to find and eliminate a belief. I drifted back to looking at thoughts, to watching them rise with no thinker of thoughts. that's it really. Just wanted to check in.

"It is nice to not have to find and eliminate a belief."

Relaxing. There's a place in the heart of hearts that knows that "me" is a social construct AND there is the everyday sense and pretence of "me" as me. Such is the friction of seeking, as forever it shall be.

Just like in the Matrix, Neo sees the agents as data and beats the shit out of them, and then, goes back and gets the girl - not data. No point in kissing a load of binary!

Emptiness and Form, Form and Emptiness - "Shariputra, form is no other than emptiness, emptiness no other than form;" [heart sutra]

The only one question to ask: Is there a "me" looking, or is light being received by the un-owned eyes of no-"me"? What then?

Speak soon,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Relaxing. There's a place in the heart of hearts that knows that "me" is a social construct AND there is the everyday sense and pretence of "me" as me. Such is the friction of seeking, as forever it shall be.

let's hope it ends soon! :/

Just like in the Matrix, Neo sees the agents as data and beats the shit out of them, and then, goes back and gets the girl - not data. No point in kissing a load of binary!

Emptiness and Form, Form and Emptiness - "Shariputra, form is no other than emptiness, emptiness no other than form;" [heart sutra]

The only one question to ask: Is there a "me" looking, or is light being received by the un-owned eyes of no-"me"? What then?

in the seen, only the seen. That's what is there. why can't this brain just accept the friggin obvious????! I'm guessing fear.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

in the seen, only the seen. That's what is there. why can't this brain just accept the friggin obvious????! I'm guessing fear.

Not necessarily fear, or only fear. There is also the simple habit of looking, assumed knowledge. For example, do the following activity:

1. Sit somewhere in the centre of a room and settle down for a minute or two.
2. Eyes are open, relaxed, not looking, just resting, at ease.
3. Feel the space in front, get as much of a feeling for the space as you can.
4. Just get what you get, might be subtle, whatever. Then, a small bow of the head to acknowledge that.
5. Now, with the head/body comfortably still, sense the space to the right side. No need to look. Get a sense and feel for the right side space.
6. Again, get what you get, followed by a small bow of the head to acknowledge that.
7. Now, sense the space to the left side. No need to look. Get a sense and feel for the left side space.
8. Again, get what you get; notice the difference in contrast with the right. Follow with a small bow of the head to acknowledge that.
9. Now, sense the space behind. No need to look. Get a sense and feel for the behind space.
10. Again, get what you get; notice the difference in contrast with front, left, right. Follow with a small bow of the head to acknowledge that.
11. After the four spaces, get a sense and feeling of the space that the body occupies. Empty, transparent.
12. Again, get what you get. Follow with a small bow of the head to acknowledge that.

Finally, wrap up by sitting and noticing how all the spaces blend together, the same and different. Noticing the lack of anyone noticing space, almost being space noticing space.

Have a play, share what happens.

Best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hey john,

Will do this this morning.

Random question...

Would you be free to 'flashchat' today for a little while?? (if u think it would be useful)

Dunno, just feel drawn to it today. might help clear the path a little? :)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

Should be around about 5pm for a time. Any good?

Best,
John