Ready to kill anything false

[yoshi8]

Hi Hannah,

There has been so much to cover.. the last couple of things I would like more time to look at. Is it possible we can look less areas at once as I am finding hard to look at it all in one day the way I would like too. What do you think?

There was the experience at the weekend of “I” thought watching the body act while “I” had no control in what it was doing. “I” thought became observer and relinquished ownership of the body for a while.

It is incessant as you said and it becomes smarter if that’s the correct word in order to pull what is being seen back into the story. i.e. “that was the fake me, the real me has discovered what the fake me was up to.”
To use the metaphor of back seat driver the car is seen to not need a driver at all. Like getting into a ‘Google car’ and the car knows how to drive and where it is going and someone is in back with a toy steering wheel.

Do you directly experience an 'unconcious'? What or how is that experienced?

If I take the ‘unconcious’ to mean a hidden mental structure which contains ‘things’ then that cannot be experienced directly. When a thought or memory appears in awareness it appears the same way.
If the unconscious is expressed through the body as an action i.e. driving automatically. Then it just happens with the body unconsciously accessing previous experiences but you can’t experience or see this ‘unconcious’ process.

When do thoughts about the past (memory) occur?

In the present

When do thoughts about the future (fantasy) occur?

In the present

Give me a response to this statement
'Nothing exists outside the present moment'.
can you find anything that does?

No

Great! Isn't it a relief to feel confident to just let the body look after itself. which is what it's always been doing anyway...

As mentioned earlier it was strange to see this going on. The body does not need ‘conscious’ thought to work or to do things.

I want you to be really exact with me what you mean by 'feeling' here, as it's not clear.
A particular body sensation?
Did this feeling make/cause the choice, or is it more likely it just arose around the choice being made?

Some things I just picked up and placed in the basket as ‘memory’ said they where needed. When there was a choice of items a feeling like ‘desire’ arose and or a mental consideration such as price and memory. I can’t say any of these things ‘choose’ but it seems they influenced the choice. Like the back seat driver “that one looks the best, get that one.”

No ‘choosing’ was directly experienced rather persuasion, desire and logic arose which influenced the choice or made the claim of choosing.

Let's be clear with simple language here. I would say this as :
there is no experiencer of life. there are just thoughts after the experience occurs talking about an 'i' that experiences, which when looked for cannot be found.
Would you agree with this statement?

Yes

But it is like a picture on a screen that keeps coming in and out of focus. When I examine it, it is found to be true but it is not rooted yet in my daily reality.

So can you find ANY experience that is happening to a self, rather than just happening?

No, just as you said thought occur after the experience claiming ownership.

Where is this structure? How does it contain or act as the 'centre of emotions'?

Sorry I did not express this well. I meant how thought pictures the heart as the centre of emotions and yes it is felt in the body. Seen as structure where emotions reside. Yet emotions are also felt in the gut and throat area as well.

no, 'happiness', 'anger' even 'pain' (probably most difficult to see this) are the thought labels for the direct experience. Which when i look BEFORE the labelling- is made of physical sensation. Could you check this in your experience for me?

Yes I agree with this and the experience to me of happiness as a purely physical quality seems very different from, pain or anger. The energy and reaction in the body seems very distinct.

Then look at- is it possible very similar sensations re being labelled as very different emotions?
What is this 'i' these labels refer to? Can it be found?

Without a label sadness seems very different sensation to happiness as mentioned but yes I could see this as being true that groups of emotions have very similar sensations in the body.

I feel like I need some more time to examine this as an exercise and have it in mind during the day as emotions arise.

xx

[Hannah B-T]

]Is it possible we can look less areas at once as I am finding hard to look at it all in one day the way I would like too. What do you think?

Was just thinking the same! We have covered tonnes of angles over the last few days, let's take the foot off the gas pedal a little and let things 'bed in' a bit lol!

To use the metaphor of back seat driver the car is seen to not need a driver at all. Like getting into a ‘Google car’ and the car knows how to drive and where it is going and someone is in back with a toy steering wheel.

Yes i enjoyed reading this- i like metaphors too, they can be ajusted and refined, but of course they can never fully convey the experience...

If I take the ‘unconcious’ to mean a hidden mental structure which contains ‘things’ then that cannot be experienced directly. When a thought or memory appears in awareness it appears the same way.

yes- So like with your 'fake me' example, thought content may pop up say something like 'yes, but' (a great favourite opening line you might notice)... 'maybe there is a 'self' hidden in the unconcious!'- and then it will be known how to look into that....well in direct experience the 'unconcious' is just another thought arising...talking about an unconcious... see where i'm going with that?

As mentioned earlier it was strange to see this going on. The body does not need ‘conscious’ thought to work or to do things.

Strange like screaming heebee jeebees strange? or strange like wearing in a new pair of shoes strange?

Some things I just picked up and placed in the basket as ‘memory’ said they where needed. When there was a choice of items a feeling like ‘desire’ arose and or a mental consideration such as price and memory. I can’t say any of these things ‘choose’ but it seems they influenced the choice. Like the back seat driver “that one looks the best, get that one.”

No ‘choosing’ was directly experienced rather persuasion, desire and logic arose which influenced the choice or made the claim of choosing.

this might benefit from a bit more looking-
what is persuasion here? Thoughts persuading the body? as in a subtle form of control?

I can’t say any of these things ‘choose’ but it seems they influenced the choice

Again, can you see the tricky language here...'influenced' 'persuaded'.
Yep- thoughts may claim forever and a day that they 'influenced that choice'- but where is any actual evidence for that process in your direct experience...keep looking out for that.

But it is like a picture on a screen that keeps coming in and out of focus. When I examine it, it is found to be true but it is not rooted yet in my daily reality.

This is a very common reporting. Just make sure there aren't any expectations lurking with this around permanence, i.e that this seeing will result in a permanent shift in perception or a permanent mental or emotional state different to before.
Thoughts like 'i got it, i lost it'...they are just more thoughts talking about that illusory 'i' right? so what!

Sorry I did not express this well. I meant how thought pictures the heart as the centre of emotions and yes it is felt in the body. Seen as structure where emotions reside. Yet emotions are also felt in the gut and throat area as well.

ok that is clearer!
But still not breaking it down for me to those raw sensations...
'she broke my heart'
How does that phrase look now? Is it possible for 'a heart to get broken'?

Yes I agree with this and the experience to me of happiness as a purely physical quality seems very different from, pain or anger. The energy and reaction in the body seems very distinct.

I'm gonna start a 'seems' tally sheet soon ;)
Is it?

Without a label sadness seems very different sensation to happiness as mentioned but yes I could see this as being true that groups of emotions have very similar sensations in the body.

I feel like I need some more time to examine this as an exercise and have it in mind during the day as emotions arise.

I agree, spend a little time with this inquiry.
the main points to clarify for this process are:

are emotions personal?
do they in any way indicate the existence of a separate self? How?

xx

[yoshi8]

well in direct experience the 'unconcious' is just another thought arising...talking about an unconcious... see where i'm going with that?

Well I was thinking about the subconscious, procedural memory and then there is Declarative memory, Topographic memory and so on and on. They are all how the brain works but can any of these brain functions be directly observed other than as thought or action?

Question: What is the difference between direct observation and direct experience in all of this?

Strange like screaming heebee jeebees strange? or strange like wearing in a new pair of shoes strange?

Well it obviously really that the body does not need conscious thought to work because that how the lungs know to breath or a million other things the body does. Think it was more seeing how what conscious thought is labeling ‘I’ am doing this, It’s not doing it… it was like the ‘I’ became and ‘O’.

Yeah more like new pair of shoes strange.

this might benefit from a bit more looking-
what is persuasion here? Thoughts persuading the body? as in a subtle form of control?

Again, can you see the tricky language here...'influenced' 'persuaded'.
Yep- thoughts may claim forever and a day that they 'influenced that choice'- but where is any actual evidence for that process in your direct experience...keep looking out for that.

When I (or what though calls I  )was in the gym today and I was trying to pay attention to what was going on. It was a clear seeing that thought is doing it all, labeling everything like a labeling machine gone into overdrive. I could see the other people in the gym where all stuck in these labeling machines of thought going ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’… none bloody stop. That’s autodrive of thought, not judging that as I am sure that’s what it’s meant to do in the same say my heart is meant to go beat, beat, beat.

So thought goes “choose the coke, it cheaper and tastes better than pepsi”. Coke is then put in the basket. Without conscious thought if I put the coke in the basket I could say that was because of procedural memory. Had it before and liked the taste, fine it just gets added. So in both those cases memory choose I could say. In direct experience however it did not seem like there was any choice, it just happened but is that not just unconscious awareness?

This is a very common reporting. Just make sure there aren't any expectations lurking with this around permanence, i.e that this seeing will result in a permanent shift in perception or a permanent mental or emotional state different to before.

Good spot! I will watch out for the crafty mind and it’s expectations 

she broke my heart'
How does that phrase look now? Is it possible for 'a heart to get broken'?

I'm gonna start a 'seems' tally sheet soon ;)
Is it?

Again in the gym paying attention I noticed that sensations / feelings arising after exercise could easily be labeled as fear, anxiety and so on by thought. The context stopped thought from doing so but say I was being chased by an perceived threat then those same feeling would have been labeled fear or whatever.

Pain, emotions are none personal, only become personal after thought labels it so. So hearts only get broken by thought which goes into label print out crazy.

are emotions personal?

No only after thought labels them to be so.

do they in any way indicate the existence of a separate self? How?

Going to come back to this one! I want to look at this for a while.

xx

[Hannah B-T]

]Well I was thinking about the subconscious, procedural memory and then there is Declarative memory, Topographic memory and so on and on. They are all how the brain works but can any of these brain functions be directly observed other than as thought or action?

huh? Never even heard of 2 of these...and without knowing them thought seems to be functioning just fine here thanks :)

Question: What is the difference between direct observation and direct experience in all of this?

don't understand how you are using these 2 terms here. can you clarify?
Direct experience is this that is appearing right now. Dead simple really :)

Is there a 'Topographic memory' appearing right now?
Or is there a thought talking about a topographic memory appearing right now?

Well it obviously really that the body does not need conscious thought to work because that how the lungs know to breath or a million other things the body does. Think it was more seeing how what conscious thought is labeling ‘I’ am doing this, It’s not doing it… it was like the ‘I’ became and ‘O’.

Nice.

Yeah more like new pair of shoes strange.

:)

When I (or what though calls I  )was in the gym today and I was trying to pay attention to what was going on. It was a clear seeing that thought is doing it all, labeling everything like a labeling machine gone into overdrive. I could see the other people in the gym where all stuck in these labeling machines of thought going ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’… none bloody stop. That’s autodrive of thought, not judging that as I am sure that’s what it’s meant to do in the same say my heart is meant to go beat, beat, beat.

Also good to look at/clock 'possession' is the same way- the labelling machine-
'my' car
'my' house
'my tv
'my' body...
what makes those objects 'yours'?

In direct experience however it did not seem like there was any choice, it just happened but is that not just unconscious awareness?

I don't want us to get hung up on the 'unconcious' thing... Is it ok to say at the moment 'choice apparently happened but it can't be seen exactly how'?
It's enough for this process to be clear that concious 'i' thought does not control or influence the choice.
Is that clear now?

“choose the coke, it cheaper and tastes better than pepsi”

This is a great example- what on earth does this thought actually think it's 'instructing' here?! The body? An invisible 'chooser'?
You know when they say 'talking to yourself is the first sign of madness' LOL!

Again in the gym paying attention I noticed that sensations / feelings arising after exercise could easily be labeled as fear, anxiety and so on by thought. The context stopped thought from doing so but say I was being chased by an perceived threat then those same feeling would have been labeled fear or whatever.

Nicely spotted.

Pain, emotions are none personal, only become personal after thought labels it so. So hearts only get broken by thought which goes into label print out crazy.

'print out crazy'- I love it!

Going to come back to this one! I want to look at this for a while.

Ok, go for it, but you did say above that emotions were 'impersonal'...

When you come back can you answer this one for me:
-Is there anything still not clear about the illusion of the separate self?

[yoshi8]

don't understand how you are using these 2 terms here. can you clarify?
Direct experience is this that is appearing right now. Dead simple really :)

Sorry ignore this for now. I was just trying to clarify for myself what is in and out of the parameters of direct experience. I guess also within that is a question of does it matter if what is appearing right now is delusionary or not and how can you know!!!.. I suspect you will say it’s all delusionary at the point of thought labeling it anyway.

Is there a 'Topographic memory' appearing right now?

Or is there a thought talking about a topographic memory appearing right now?
It’s a thought because if I say ‘well yes I can know with just the senses if a place is familiar’ it is still thought that needs to put those sensations together and then access the memory ‘thought that says ‘yes this place is familiar’.

Direct experience without that cannot confirm.

Also good to look at/clock 'possession' is the same way- the labelling machine-
'my' car
'my' house
'my tv
'my' body...
what makes those objects 'yours'?

I thought about this as a slap!

What arises when someone slaps ‘me’, my mother, a stranger, a rock.

The same action is happening and even when it’s not directly sensed other than vision (meaning not an apparent ‘me’ being slapped) then that shows clearly thought will evoke (do you agree?) and label what arises differently because of memory (thought).

It’s my car, my house, my tv simply because thought says there is a me and those things belong to this me.
I don't want us to get hung up on the 'unconcious' thing... Is it ok to say at the moment 'choice apparently happened but it can't be seen exactly how'?

It's enough for this process to be clear that concious 'i' thought does not control or influence the choice.
Is that clear now?

I am not sure why I am finding it hard to see this in choosing. I was in the supermarket today and thought goes “Need peas” – image of can from memory arises. Sight sees can and then peas are put in basket. Now I can see that ‘I’ thought was a thought making a suggestion. It is not making the choice, I get that. It’s the influence part I am not seeing. Do you have a suggestion?

do they in any way indicate the existence of a separate self? How?
When you come back can you answer this one for me:
-Is there anything still not clear about the illusion of the separate self?

I think maybe this is the same thing and related to awareness and the answer to the part I am not clear on or needed more time on the above part of the question.

Awareness I am not sure why it’s focused ‘seemingly’ to a self. Like it is this seemingly limit of awareness that gives the appearance of separate self. i.e. When emotions arise in awareness they are not arising in others awareness.. Like we have found no physical barriers that point to a self. So how can awareness be personal? What distinguish ones person's awareness from another’s? So what’s the focus about?

I know the answer is thought, that ‘I thought’ is labeling what’s arising ‘self’ but what’s happening to someone in Japan you have no awareness of … so can you see what I am trying to express? It’s like this thought is keeping the illusion of separate self unclear.

Hope you have an idea what might help!

xx

[Hannah B-T]

Yep. Stop thinking about it, that will never work and just LOOK.

Is there a cellphone in your pocket right now?
Is there a seperate self to be found in your experience right now?

It's mind boggingly, waltz straight over it, blindingly simple....

I thought about this as a slap!

What arises when someone slaps ‘me’, my mother, a stranger, a rock.

Did i ask you to think about it?
no.
This isn't a mental exercise.
Actually sit there in front of your possesions, pick them up, handle them, stuff with real 'sentimental value' even and observe really carefully what is going on when this question is posed.
How are those objects 'yours'?
When you sit on a bus for 10 mins and then get up... was that 'your' seat for the last 10mins? Where was the 'possession' before that moment...and the moment after? What's the difference between 'my seat' and 'my tv' and 'my body'?

I am not sure why I am finding it hard to see this in choosing. I was in the supermarket today and thought goes “Need peas” – image of can from memory arises. Sight sees can and then peas are put in basket. Now I can see that ‘I’ thought was a thought making a suggestion. It is not making the choice, I get that. It’s the influence part I am not seeing. Do you have a suggestion?

Which comes first? The apparent choice action...or the thought about the apparent choice?

Where is the evidence in your direct experience of a link/causal effect between the 2? You have not been able to find or explain that to me so far...

Watch out for the many apparent choices made throughout the day without a single thought being bothered enough to even try and comment on them. Driving might be a good arena for this.

Like it is this seemingly limit of awareness that gives the appearance of separate self.

A 'seeming limit' 'giving the appearance of a separate self' is not the same thing AS a separate self actually existing
That's why it's called an illusion!
It can be very convincing. Like being 'sucked into' a good movie about batman. But clear seeing is simply a knowledge either during that, or just after, that it's just a movie about a character that doesn't really exist...

When emotions arise in awareness they are not arising in others awareness..

So what are you saying here? That there are separate little awarenesses inside each body then? Little slices of life?
How does that fit with the insight you described about there being 'no inside and no outside' to your direct experience? ...then i read this

Like we have found no physical barriers that point to a self. So how can awareness be personal? What distinguish ones person's awareness from another’s?

Glad we are on the same page :) Good questions.
Except there is still a belief embedded in here in a 'person who has a separate awareness'. Can you see that's what you are saying?
So find this person! Show it to me!

but what’s happening to someone in Japan you have no awareness of …

What's hapenning here is pure speculative thought concepts.
I have no idea. Who cares?
The thoughts just love all this doubting speculation
Just take a look what is going on right now without them.
I promise it's a hell of a lot easier that way.

[yoshi8]

After I just read your last post a feeling of lightness appeared and I wrote the following down... it just came out. Feels like a just wrote it with no thought which was weird.

It's all just consciousness, even thought. The delusion is that mind combines senses to create a illusion of a physical universe. There can not be a phone in my pocket as there is no me and no pocket. There can only be an illusion of a pocket and a phone and it certainly can not belong to anyone as an illusion can not own an illusion, it's all the same thing. Nothing chooses, there was never a choice it just happened and to no one.

I will look again and reply tomorrow in more detail to your post. :)

[yoshi8]

Is there a cellphone in your pocket right now?
Is there a seperate self to be found in your experience right now?

It's mind boggingly, waltz straight over it, blindingly simple....
When you sit on a bus for 10 mins and then get up... was that 'your' seat for the last 10mins? Where was the 'possession' before that moment...and the moment after?

Sensations only point to awareness. It’s all thought, the possession is thought and memory.
One of my big hang ups was senses working together to create reality… I could not see past this. “If ‘I’ can see a TV and touch the TV there must be a TV and ‘I’ know it must be my TV as I remember buying it.”

What's the difference between 'my seat' and 'my tv' and 'my body'?

Nothing… or the difference is sensation in awareness difference.

Which comes first? The apparent choice action...or the thought about the apparent choice?
The thought then the apparent choice

Where is the evidence in your direct experience of a link/causal effect between the 2? You have not been able to find or explain that to me so far...

I can’t find the choice being made just the thought.

Watch out for the many apparent choices made throughout the day without a single thought being bothered enough to even try and comment on them. Driving might be a good arena for this.

I can’t find a direct experience of a choice being made… if I think about it I can come up with all sorts of ideas about it being procedural memory acting unconsciously and so on.

That's why it's called an illusion!
It can be very convincing. Like being 'sucked into' a good movie about batman. But clear seeing is simply a knowledge either during that, or just after, that it's just a movie about a character that doesn't really exist...

I saw this experiment they did on perception in which they put a VR camera mask on someone and pointed the camera the screens where seeing to the back of the persons head. So the persons view point was the back of their heads. They then asked them to touch the back of their heads and where they where located.

It’s very convincing and to me starting to understanding how the senses worked together to create this helped seeing through it. Like the mind connects the senses to create this reality.

How does that fit with the insight you described about there being 'no inside and no outside' to your direct experience? ...then i read this

It was thought, thought created the contradiction.. “Oh but if your ill, in pain, hungry, lost then who the fuck goes through that other than YOU… no one else YOU! YOU!” YOU! It’s not happening in anyone elses awareness.”

So this is the inner dialogue.

Glad we are on the same page :) Good questions.
Except there is still a belief embedded in here in a 'person who has a separate awareness'. Can you see that's what you are saying?
So find this person! Show it to me!

Yes I can see this as this can’t be known. All I can know is my own awareness everything else is speculation. I am not saying someone ‘owns’ the awareness but there is awareness.

Thought is owning the sensations and by association personalizing the awareness as separate.
So where is the person? Well it’s a bloody complicated and long story that’s being made up with sensations, thoughts, memories, suffering, emotions, fear and all in 3D.

Last night during that moment of clarity then it was like a warm seeing like I fell out of the separate ‘me’ for a while into a ‘world body’ if that makes sense? Like everything I could see was the body.

The witness is still here but I can’t show you that.

[Hannah B-T]

Wow. Looks like something has 'shifted' to me...
big smiles here :)

So where is the person? Well it’s a bloody complicated and long story that’s being made up with sensations, thoughts, memories, suffering, emotions, fear and all in 3D.

Is the story actually long or complicated? Or is that just another story ;)

Or is there just
this thought.
this unique collection of sensations.
occurring now...now...now...

The witness is still here but I can’t show you that.

Is there a difference between 'the witness' and 'awareness?'
Is there a 'person', Andy witnessing...or just witnessing?

xx

[yoshi8]

Wow. Looks like something has 'shifted' to me...
big smiles here :)

Yes it feels like there has been a shift and then a pull back in. Or rather a clear seeing and then thought stream occurs again. However it feels like it's left a crack, a shift in perception with the mind laid on top it trying to fill it in.

Is the story actually long or complicated? Or is that just another story ;)

Or is there just
this thought.
this unique collection of sensations.
occurring now...now...now...

Yes lol I see this! It's amazing how the mind weaves anything and everything into the story of self.

Is there a difference between 'the witness' and 'awareness?'

I see it as with 'the witness' there is still ego, still some act of doing. Where 'awareness' is non-doing, not subjective or objective.

Is there a 'person', Andy witnessing...or just witnessing?

Just witnessing in direct experience.


I think I am at this stage where there is new 'seeing' but also from the mind endless questions. I try and pull it back to what you have kept saying.. "Just look!" It's like thought and emotions are like quick sand sometimes and it's this reminder to keep looking, clear seeing and recognize what is just story.

xx

[Hannah B-T]

Or rather a clear seeing and then thought stream occurs again. However it feels like it's left a crack, a shift in perception with the mind laid on top it trying to fill it in.

I find the Santa metaphor helpful at this point:
When you knew Santa wasn't real that didn't mean you stopped thinking and and imagining about Santa. But however much from that day on pictures of him appeared, even when standing in front of convincing looking men in red costumes, you knew it wasn't real.
I thoughts still appear, thoughts talking about this illusory self. Same thing.
To start with, a lot of checking often happens. Sounds very healthy to me. Check 1000 times, a million times- every single time an I thought pops up, check for that 'i' it's talking about in the direct experience. Takes a couple of seconds. Why not?

Yes lol I see this! It's amazing how the mind weaves anything and everything into the story of self.

yup. that just seems to be how it is. Just sit back and watch the movie, it can get pretty dramatic at times :) ....

I see it as with 'the witness' there is still ego, still some act of doing. Where 'awareness' is non-doing, not subjective or objective.

not sure how you are using the term 'ego' here- this is a much confused term. Do you mean with this sense of the witness there is still some sense the witness can 'do something'? What exactly?

Just witnessing in direct experience.

Great, so we've established this 'witness' is not a person/personal.
But lets take a look at this-
Does it have a particular location?
Go back to the five senses here:
Can it be seperated from what is being 'witnessed'?
i.e seer and seen?
Hearer and heard?
Toucher and touch?
etc..
witnesser and witnessed?
knowing and known?
can you find any actual separation or boundary between these?...

I think I am at this stage where there is new 'seeing' but also from the mind endless questions. I try and pull it back to what you have kept saying.. "Just look!" It's like thought and emotions are like quick sand sometimes and it's this reminder to keep looking, clear seeing and recognize what is just story.

The thoughts demand answers
direct experience just is...
can you find any doubt outside the thought content, outside the story?

xx

[yoshi8]

I find the Santa metaphor helpful at this point:

Yes I like this metaphor as that describes how it is.

Yesterday I read something I wrote a while back which was personal and painful. I could feel the words on the page turn to thoughts and images. Emotions arising. Then it struck me it’s just a story and the emotions and thoughts fell away. It’s not invalidating the story in anyway but just seeing that is what it is. A series of arisings strung together by thought to create a story with ‘I’ at the centre of it all. Like you said a dramatic movie with ‘I’ as the lead actor. Pain still feels painful, sadness still feels sad and joy still feels joyful because that is what they are but their special effects in a high budget movie.

not sure how you are using the term 'ego' here- this is a much confused term. Do you mean with this sense of the witness there is still some sense the witness can 'do something'? What exactly?

Well I meant in difference with ‘awareness’, ‘witness’ is like an act of observing. Not by anyone but in itself. Like walking is the act of walking. Where with awareness than that has no ‘doing’ in it. The awareness is the thing not the act.

So in terms of ego here I am referring to when ‘I’ witness the ego / thought / mind is behind the witnessing. Not controlling it just present in the ‘witnessing’.

Great, so we've established this 'witness' is not a person/personal.
But lets take a look at this-
Does it have a particular location?
Go back to the five senses here:
Can it be seperated from what is being 'witnessed'?
i.e seer and seen?
Hearer and heard?
Toucher and touch?
etc..
witnesser and witnessed?
knowing and known?
can you find any actual separation or boundary between these?...

In direct experience, no. There are no boundries, no separation between witnesser and witnessed because what would that be? Mind would say form but even then if ‘eyes’ could operate at the subatomic level then it would all look the same. A bullet going into a head, a flower in a field, it’s all the same at that level and even then it’s not reality. Thought is the director and editor of all this, it separates everything as a non-story is not very interesting to it.

can you find any doubt outside the thought content, outside the story?

Doubt only exists in the story as a story based mechanism. Outside of that what is just is.

Question: Any experience of this process and short term memory going a bit funny sometimes? It’s happened a few times I went to remember something in the moment and it’s like the mind has went still, like the moment is better than a memory so why bother trying to remember. Might just be my mind lol but thought I would ask.

[Hannah B-T]

Lovely answers. Nothing to add/ask. In fact I think now is the time to given you the standard set of questions we use here on LU. What then happens is some other guides look over your responses and see if there are any questions or sticking points i may have missed.
If that's all clear then this then leads to invitation to the LU groups here and on facebook if you are interested in ongoing discussion as things arise. I have found them very helpful.

Question: Any experience of this process and short term memory going a bit funny sometimes? It’s happened a few times I went to remember something in the moment and it’s like the mind has went still, like the moment is better than a memory so why bother trying to remember. Might just be my mind lol but thought I would ask.

This is a really common reporting, and yes it happened to me for about 4 months on and off after this process, but has settled now. It can be disconcerting if it starts seemingly affecting day to day functioning. i found it best to just go with the flow and accept this was an unfamiliar but more spontaneous and simple lifestyle for a while. It felt like a 'balancing up' process after many years of obsessive planning and memory thoughts being dominant. This is something that's discussed in the facebook groups quite often.

Ok so here are the questions- just give them a bash, no rush- you've pretty much already answered some of them over the last few days, but let's just see where the expression is at now-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

xx

[yoshi8]

Hi Hannah,

That sounds great and I would certainly be interested in ongoing discussion as part of the LU groups. Also good news that it is not just me who has experienced the memory thing and what you said about it 'balancing up' certainly makes sense here.

I will look at these questions and come back and many thanks for all your help getting to this stage.

xx

[yoshi8]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, all is consciousness. The personality, mind, thoughts, the idea of a separate self is all this same consciousness. Nothing can be separate.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Thought labeling experiences of body sensations / memory / creates the story of a ‘me’ in time. This ‘me’ believes it’s acting in the world, making choices, having a ‘life’ as a separate entity, this is the universal view of reality. Because there are a lot of experiences of things happening the illusion is that there is a ‘doer’ making these things happen. When in fact what’s happening is not happening to anyone or anyone is doing it. The ‘doer’ is the story being told billion of times and from within that illusion it all seems so real that any deviation from that would ironically be labeled delusion. This is the story of a ‘me and you’ universe which creates an illusion of separate self.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The last view days has been the experience of ‘self’ happening and also no ‘self’ or rather this vibrant awareness. Like there is a dissolving or a dropping away of ‘me’ as an “I”. Like the personality is still there and behaving in the same way. The phone rings and picking up the phone happens, talking to my mother happens and it’s all the same except no one is doing it, talking or listening. There is only conscious experience of this but by no one. The experience is consciousness. It’s witnessing this can all happen without the need for a story of ‘me’.

Seeing all this feels, blissful, weird, expansive and obvious.




4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The story - seeing clearly how thought will weave anything and everything into the story of ‘self’ even if’s not true. Seeing how mechanical the story making process is. How the story 'thought' was using sensations and memory to create this reality. That was the unbreakable horcrux for me that multiple ‘separate’ senses seemed to be pointing to an object based reality in which ‘I’ was placed inside a body container into this world. Seeing all this and being able to test as ‘direct experience’. I maybe had a slight advantage in that for a number of years ‘I’ could see without ‘physical’ eyes. This is which brought me here (so the story goes  ) as this crack in consensus reality allowed me to ‘unbelieve’ the unquestionable reality which everyone holds as the true reality. Otherwise I think I would of held onto the horcux must tighter. It did feel very much like a letting go.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
No. Consciousness is the happening and that’s all there is. Thought can and does still play this game but like your Santa analogy, I know it’s just a man dressed up and there is no real santa.

6) Anything to add?
Just thanks Hannah for your time and patience helping push me through the gate. I would very much like to continue to be part of the community and further deepen this clarity.

Love in Truth xx