Seeking Guide Please

[Ilona]

There isn't anything "behind" the pain, there is just pain being experienced. No separate "thing" experiencing the pain, but the pain is being experienced.

Yes, this is what I wanted you to see. It's just a sensation, being experienced, nothing behind it experiencing this.

Today. Try this experiment, the purpose is to see what is the difference between what is going on, here now, actually happening and what is imagined.

You will need a fruit for that or some food that you have a available.

Have it in front of you. Close your eyes and imagine that you take the fruit in your hands, feel it. Texture, weight, shape, colour. Imagine that you are smelling it. Take a bite. Feel the sensation of taste.

Open your eyes and take a look, did anything happened to the fruit in from too you? Is there a sign of bite on it?
Do you need to look in order to know that the bite is not there?

Now take that fruit in the hands and experience the shape, colour, texture, notice details. smell it and bite it. Feel the taste, texture.

What is the difference between the same fruit imagined and experienced?

How does imaginary fruit taste?
How does real fruit taste like?
does description of the taste has anything to do with actual experience of the taste?

After you answer all these questions, take a look at I, is it experienced or imagined?

Sending love.

[Coffee]

Have it in front of you. Close your eyes and imagine that you take the fruit in your hands, feel it. Texture, weight, shape, colour. Imagine that you are smelling it. Take a bite. Feel the sensation of taste.

Open your eyes and take a look, did anything happened to the fruit in from too you? Is there a sign of bite on it?
Do you need to look in order to know that the bite is not there?

I didn't have fruit so I used a carrot.

I felt a little silly doing this because I already knew what was going to happen but I did it anyway :-P

No, I didn't need to look in order to know that there would be no bite on the carrot, because I knew I was imagining biting the carrot and knew that there was no carrot.

What is the difference between the same fruit imagined and experienced?

The one imagined didn't have flavor, didn't have taste didn't have texture. The one that I actually ate there were a lot more sensations, sensations of touching the carrot, sensations of taste, sensations of color.

How does imaginary fruit taste?

Like the taste of my tongue! :-P

How does real fruit taste like?

Like a carrot :-), delicious.

does description of the taste has anything to do with actual experience of the taste?

No, thoughts can't describe the taste of a carrot, like they can't describe a color.

After you answer all these questions, take a look at I, is it experienced or imagined?

Imagined, but that depends on what we are calling "I". If we call "I" the experience that is happening (and not the experiencer), then "I" feels different every second, so when eating the carrot "I" was all the sensations happening, color, taste, texture.

Sending love.

<3

[Ilona]

Sweet.
Why would you call experience that is happening -I? Experience is experience. Labelling or not labelling it I does not change it. Why don't you stop dancing around it and take a look- there is no I. No manager, controller, experiencer. None as in zero.

What comes up here?

[Coffee]

Sweet.
Why would you call experience that is happening -I? Experience is experience. Labelling or not labelling it I does not change it.

Reading is happening, drinking is happening, typing is happening. If I don't exist, then how is this sentence being typed or read? I see that I am not the author of my thoughts, so I see I am not in control. But "I" is still here, because things are still happening.

I have to exist, even if I'm not the body, I can't believe that I do not exist, because things are happening and they might not be happening to "someone" but they are still happening and there is awareness of this. This awareness takes the form of whatever shows up, but there is memory of....

Ok I have to stop my sentence there because I just realized memories are just thoughts too and my memories can't describe any sensation so that's just a story too... Ok I think I just got it, that the whole story of my life is only contained in thought and doesn't exist anymore...

And the story is just a guess of what was actually going on, because none of the thoughts really describe DE at all...

But I still exists, it just isn't in control and isn't the body and actually is just any experience that comes up. But what will happen to "I" or "experiences" when the body disappears? It seems that thoughts, eyesight, hearing will all disappear as the brain, eyes and ears stop working...

[Coffee]

Why don't you stop dancing around it and take a look- there is no I. No manager, controller, experiencer. None as in zero.

What comes up here?

Yes, no manager, no controller or experience I see this in DE... But if I don't exist then who are you talking to? Sorry that just confuses me really badly >.>

[Coffee]

Oh right... So death is a story too, because thought can't know anything of birth or death seeing as thought can't describe experience...

So experience would still happen when the body gets old and put in the ground? Or experience will stop? I'm confused here.

hmmmm

[Ilona]

There is no who. Just talking. Who is an assumption of a separate entity. An illusion created by language.
Read this post and do the exercise in there. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html
You can do it on paper or right here. Tell me, does describing experience with pronouns affects what is happening? What does description has effect to and how?

Don't worry now about what happens when body goes to feed worms, focus on now.

Sending love.

[Coffee]

Read this post and do the exercise in there. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html
You can do it on paper or right here. Tell me, does describing experience with pronouns affects what is happening? What does description has effect to and how?

The one without using pronouns is much more accurate.

Descriptions don't have an effect on anything really, they are just descriptions.

[Coffee]

I think you have given me the confirmation that I needed... Thank-you very much Ilona <3

[Ilona]

:) sweet!
so can you say a big YES, that i entity is an illusion?
if so, are you ready to answer final questions?
if not, what else can we look at?

sending love.

[Coffee]

Yep, a big yes :-)

Sure thing, ask me the final questions <3

[Ilona]

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

[Coffee]

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Only in thought stories. In DE, no sign. Thoughts tell a story of an individual, a story of cause and effect, a story of things happening to "me". But thoughts cannot describe colors, shapes, sensations AT ALL, thoughts only point to other thoughts, a never ending story.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is basically the words that are "heard" describing the images/audio/sensations to you, and not doing the images/audio/sensations justice at all. I'm not sure how to describe "when it starts" because that feels like it implies time. Anything I write here will just be describing the story that thoughts tell me, and never do justice what is actually being said. However, if I was to take poetic license I would say this starts during childhood when "thoughts" pop up and try to describe what it can't in words (audio, visual patterns, sensations). One thought that says "I exist", and other thoughts use this premise to build upon a story. There is no doer though, this is seen clearly, and all this in itself is just a story (the "awakening" of this, only a story in thought that points to the truth).

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Very beautiful. Before the dialogue there was a sense of confusion, but now that is seen that nothing could be confused, all the information is there in every moment. The self had been glimpsed through before this dialogue, but thoughts appeared of some kind of "confusion" of "what to do". Every belief of a "something" being "confused/anxious/worried/sad" is ultimately seen through now.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

No idea, it just happened this way. If I was to explain the story of my life though, it would be that I felt unhappy and found myself questioning why I was living life without ever getting down to the bottom of what was true. It became a seek to find what was true, especially when it was seen in other individuals that the truth could be seen. It's now seen that others are also nothing but a story.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No decider, no doer, no controller. No I don't make anything happen. Experiences happen, and that's all that can be said without creating a dramatic story. It would seem the whole fun of life is to play that images can cause sounds, sounds can cause sensations, sensations can cause images and images can cause sensations. When in reality, any moment that is looked at, there is no separability, no cause, no effect. An image can't cause a sound anymore than sound can cause an image, or sensation for that reason. It seems fun and playful now to look at life as a game that is played where these cause and effects are pretended to be reality.

6) Anything to add?

Just love and appreciation for your appearance in "this". Thank-you very much, Ilona.

Much love.

[Ilona]

thank you very much! i see that you see :) just a tiny little question- was there ever a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I'? can it come back?

[Coffee]

Nope, never a separate self outside of a concept. There were only thoughts pointing to other thoughts about a self, not really describing anything at all. Perhaps the concept of a separate self could come back, but never anything seperate.