Guide request

[lindsay]

Hi Perry,

Thanks for your reply,

is there 'self' at any other times?

There is a sense of self at other times when I’m locked into a story about ‘me’ or ‘mine’.

Has there ever been a 'self'?

Well yes, in a way there has – through my story or thoughts there has been a ‘self’ or through other peoples stories or thoughts about ‘Lindsay’ there has been a ‘self’ – but really its only through those stories and thoughts does it exist.

If so, what is it?

That’s what it is – a story.

If not, what is the nature of the illusion?

The nature of the illusion is ephemeral, its made up, it’s a constructed idea of a personality, a set package of traits/habits that others and I call ‘Lindsay’ but none of which is real, solid, permanent or true.

Thanks and best wishes,

Lindsay

[perrym]

Hi Lindsay,

Well your answers sound pretty much spot on - do they feel convincing to you, or do you just know that these are the 'right' answers?

Has something shifted, has a belief dropped away? Can you say more?

best wishes,

Perry

[lindsay]

Hi Perry,

When I wrote those answers they sounded true, felt true, as I re-read them they still sound true though I have doubts as I write that perhaps really I do just know that these are the ‘right’ answers.

I don’t feel something has shifted in particular or that a particular belief has dropped away. I don’t feel any different really.

What I would say is that I no longer seem caught up in my story or the story of Lindsay’s life for very long – I don’t seem to be able to live in it as though I’m as certain of things as I have been in the past. I feel less anxious about the future – in particular how things will unfold or play out at work and I’m noticing how relatively easy it seems to be to get things done – so jobs that I used to angst over for several days don’t seem to be as taxing or onerous as I’d thought and once started I seem to be able to finish them quite quickly. I know it sounds a bit weird - but almost as though things sort themselves out and my angst over them just used to get in the way.

When I re-read Gateless Gatecrashers or the Quotes on the LU website they seem to make more sense now but perhaps that’s simply because I’m more familiar with the concept of no-self.
Generally I feel calm and content, more appreciative of others as a whole; though not always of course!

Not sure what else to say so I’ll leave it there for now.

Best wishes,

Lindsay

[perrym]

Hi Lindsay,

I no longer seem caught up in my story or the story of Lindsay’s life for very long

That is rather a good sign :-)

It seems like you may have slipped quietly through the gate when nobody was looking ... for some folk it is dramatic and obvious, others just quietly 'get it'!

I suggest we look back over some of the territory we've covered and see what's changed, and what might still be worth looking into:

I think the words ‘ there is no ‘self’ and never has been’ brings up a deep-rooted fear of annihilation.

so how does this look now?

somehow I believe that the thoughts must come from somewhere, from a directing ‘me’ or ‘self’

and this?

But can I really look the fear of no ‘I’, no ‘me’, no ‘self’ fully in the eye; truly and know that’s it’s a falsification? That seems almost too big, too monumental, too fundamental to be able to do

have you looked this fully in the eye now? Have you seen through 'the illusion of self'?

... and lastly, don't get too hung up on this next one, but I wonder how you would view a statement like "I have free will and I am in control of my life" ?

very best wishes,

Perry

P.S. anything you would like to bring up?

[lindsay]

Hi Perry,

Thanks for your reply.

I think the words ‘ there is no ‘self’ and never has been’ brings up a deep-rooted fear of annihilation.

so how does this look now?

Well it just doesn’t seem to affect me – its strange really – something that a few weeks ago seemed to be so daunting now seems fine – I don’t feel annihilated nor do I fear that either, and I can’t really say why!

somehow I believe that the thoughts must come from somewhere, from a directing ‘me’ or ‘self’

and this?

This is odd too because at times I can see thoughts just popping up randomly but most of the time I’m just experiencing thoughts which are dependent on what I’m doing , where I am or who I’m with - but just not really getting caught up with them for that long. Thoughts just seem a little bit more loose and dependent on my circumstances, if that makes sense



But can I really look the fear of no ‘I’, no ‘me’, no ‘self’ fully in the eye; truly and know that’s it’s a falsification? That seems almost too big, too monumental, too fundamental to be able to do


have you looked this fully in the eye now? Have you seen through 'the illusion of self'?

Well I think so, but when I saw something it seemed so incredibly simple – I laughed to myself and wrote …’You’ doesn’t exist outside or inside the present moment….the present moment IS just what it is…all there is the present moment – SO simple it’s a joke!’

Which now looks like a cliché or something like that, but was genuine at the time.

So nothing big or monumental or anything like that but I yes in a way I think I have looked this fully in the eye, but without the fireworks – just very plainly and simply. Perhaps fireworks would make it seem more real or convincing that something has definitely shifted and will last.


... and lastly, don't get too hung up on this next one, but I wonder how you would view a statement like "I have free will and I am in control of my life" ?


That seems quite amusing really to think about a statement like that. And yet I think that my old pattern of believing I’m in control still likes to think I am, so in some ways ‘I’ still thinks I do have free will; I can decide what to eat for breakfast, which shirt to to wear, but of course, because these decisions are all based on thoughts over which I have no control, then that’s a bit of joke!

P.S. anything you would like to bring up?

Yes please!

What about slipping back into identification? Perhaps I’ve just seen something that is fleeting and will simply last a few days/weeks and then go back to the old major identification with Lindsay’s story?

Without the fireworks or verification from someone who knows ‘you’ well and in person, couldn’t I just be convincing myself that I’m through?

Is this it… really….and what happens next? I feel that I’m standing rather tentatively just inside the Gate wondering how I got there… And whether I’ll be popping back out once ‘I’ or others realize I haven’t seen through the illusion of self fully after all.

On another note, and I don’t quite know why it seems significant, but I had a thought as I woke up yesterday morning (thinking about my family and their well-being whilst they are away from home)….…well….. who do I pray to now?

I’m away on holiday Mon- Fri this week and not taking my laptop with me; but will be anticipating your reply via my phone!.. and very much looking forward to hearing from you.

Thank you and best wishes,

Lindsay

[perrym]

Hi Lindsay,

I love your answers, absolutely love them :-)

From over here, it really does seem that you're through, fireworks or no! (It is common enough for there to be no fireworks, maybe even normal)

Well I think so, but when I saw something it seemed so incredibly simple – I laughed to myself and wrote …’You’ doesn’t exist outside or inside the present moment….the present moment IS just what it is…all there is the present moment – SO simple it’s a joke!’

this feels very authentic to me, yes, it really is that simple!

What about slipping back into identification? Perhaps I’ve just seen something that is fleeting and will simply last a few days/weeks and then go back to the old major identification with Lindsay’s story?

This is an understandable concern.

Actually, it is not uncommon to be rather disconcerted when old habits do rise again. A realisation is no guarantee of which mental states may arise again in the future - any mental state that has arisen in the past is likely to arise again in the future.

However, in every case I know about, things are never quite the same again - even if [when!] old habits do rise again, they are, on some level, known to be false, somehow they are not able to fully 'grip' completely like they did before, and so they drop away more quickly than they would have done before.

So time will tell, but from my experience, it is neither as good as you may hope (identification never arising again) nor as bad as you may fear (identification taking over again completely) ... in the long run, the stories drop away completely, but in the short term they may still have a bit of life left in them :-)

Without the fireworks or verification from someone who knows ‘you’ well and in person, couldn’t I just be convincing myself that I’m through?

the guides here, collectively, have a lot of experience with 'confirmation' - maybe they'll come up with some evil questions to trip you up :-)

on the other hand, what is this doubt but another thought arising? Tell me, which is more rooted in reality: the direct observation that there is no self to be found in experience, or the passing thought "maybe I am kidding myself"?

Is it possible that the doubting thought is actually just another bit of Lindsay-story?

what happens next?

well, assuming you'd like to go through the confirmation process (and that decision must come from you not me), there are various 'aftercare' groups where, basically, you can be in touch with others who have been 'through the gate', either recently or not so recently. This is highly recommended - comparing experience and sharing what comes up 'post gate' is very valuable in deepening the realisation and allowing the process to continue to unfold. It is also good to have a support line to people who will understand in case you find the going gets rough.

who do I pray to now?

mmmm that question is above my pay grade :-)

Have a great holiday,

Perry

[lindsay]

Hi Perry,

Good to hear from you, and thank you I had a lovely holiday.

Tell me, which is more rooted in reality: the direct observation that there is no self to be found in experience, or the passing thought "maybe I am kidding myself"?

Is it possible that the doubting thought is actually just another bit of Lindsay-story?

Yes, on reflection I think you are right – the thought is typical of ‘lindsay’s story’ and the reality is that I cannot find her ‘self’ anywhere.

In fact, I’ve been noticing this week how the old anxieties and stories just don’t hang around for very long, they just appear to rise up and fall away again without all the added baggage that seemed to go on and on for days before.


well, assuming you'd like to go through the confirmation process (and that decision must come from you not me),

so, yes, please, I would like to go through this process….though if ‘confirmed’ would like to ask a few questions around claims/ anonymity and all that – bearing in mind in some quarters it can seem to cause a bit of a stir, not least, ironically, for one’s ‘self’!

Looking forward to hearing from you and thank you so much for your help and guidance.

Best wishes,

Lindsay

[perrym]

Hi Lindsay,

In fact, I’ve been noticing this week how the old anxieties and stories just don’t hang around for very long, they just appear to rise up and fall away again without all the added baggage that seemed to go on and on for days before.

that is something of a classic sign, the fruit of the process, really .... makes me very happy to read, really, wonderful stuff!

Well, here are the questions .... it is, of course, up to you how you tackle them, but you might find it easier to bite off one or two at a time, rather than trying to tackle them all in one go!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

very best wishes,

Perry

[lindsay]

Hi Perry,
Just to say that I've been away for a couple of days this week and will get back to you as soon as possible!
Best wishes,
Lindsay

[perrym]

looking forward to hearing from you :-)

Perry

[lindsay]

Hi Perry,

Thanks for your message - I've been quite unwell the past few days and have had a couple of problems at work too so have been rather preoccupied I'm afraid, I promise I will reply properly soon!

Lindsay

[lindsay]

Hi Perry,

Sorry its taken an age to get back to you! Here goes…

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No there isn’t, all there is is the present moment and ‘ I’, ‘me’, ‘self’ doesn’t exist in the present, it only exists in thought which is either hooked into the past or the future, the ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘self’ is a story – a fictional character that is thought about and a whole ‘life’ story built around that character. There has never been a self, me or an I, simply a story around it.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is quite simply a story which starts sometime in childhood, around what age I’m not sure exactly,, but I do think I had a sense of that story unfolding as a child, perhaps a notion of being led away from direct experience and into the story of ‘lindsay’. How it works…. we are told we have a name, a history, a personality…. and we believe it all, we sort of fall into the story and become more and more convinced that its true and act it out as though we were real and that the play we find ourselves in is true. When in fact ‘we’ never have been and never will be, our ‘self’ is merely a thought. The separate self only exists in the past and the future as a thought. In the present moment, which is all in life that is true or real, ‘me’ and a sense of ‘I’ doesn’t exist.

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
3)
To see this feels incredibly normal but very liberating at the same time, a paradox – normal in that nothing changes in your life but that quite subtly everything changes, in terms of attaching to the emotions and story lines – thoughts that used to go round and round and create all sorts of difficulties and big dramas just aren’t able to do that anymore – they just don’t attach in the same way – or at least not for so long. The illusion has gone, therefore the grip of the emotional pull this way or that has also gone. Things are seen in a clearer light. There are still the same habits, problems and irritations but they are felt to be what they are – transitory and relatively straightforward – without the drama.

Although I would say that I have been tested the past few days with several issues at work , whilst at the same time being quite unwell. The body needing attention and desperate for pain relief and the old attaching storylines about work issues rearing up and down. Yet when I reflect on the past week I would say that I am more positive than I would normally be in these circumstances, and can, surprisingly, still just be in life, with its inherent difficulties; without predicting my own early demise or that of my business!

Things just feel a bit lighter and simpler even though others looking on might disagree. There is a sense of not getting so caught up in other people’s dramas – even those nearest to me – just seeing things for what they are and letting that be a bit more; not feeling such a weight of responsibility for everything or that I can control outcomes.

Someone said to me yesterday that it would be nice if I did a particular class with them – she said it would be good to get to know you better; I smiled after our conversation because of course there is no one to be known, just a story and thoughts about ‘lindsay’, It seemed quite amusing as I thought about it afterwards.

I notice too that I seek out my own company more than I might usually have done and that I don’t seem to worry about that; that I just enjoy it. I’ve noticed too that even when I’m not alone I’m generally a bit more present than I think I have been in the past.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I can pin point exactly where I was when I looked and how simple and straightforward it felt - I had just read something about staying in the present moment with bare sensations and how an ‘I’ claims these sensations as its own and ping – I seemed to ‘see’ that it was a joke – that all there is is experience in the present moment and everything else is fabrication. I can remember writing about it immediately and saying ‘you’ doesn’t exist outside or inside the present moment –and that all there is is the present moment…it was like a joke so simple and obvious really.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6)
This is the question that I reactively want to say YES of course I do! … but when I investigate its NO! …thoughts are out of my control, they come and go unbidden and are dependent on my situation, who I am with, what I am doing etc, they are random and spontaneous. This week they have mainly been about my body’s pain, how quickly the antibiotics will work, lack of sleep and staff issues, tomorrow, well that’s a different story as they say!

Because of this I cannot decide, intend, choose, control anything, ‘I’ am led by thought, thought leads ‘me’ I don’t choose my thoughts, they choose ‘me’ in a way and hence ‘I’ cannot make anything happen at all!..... What freedom!

7) Anything to add?

I realize I’m reluctant to talk to anyone else about this – to say that… (maybe) I’m through the gate – because everything feels so normal and ordinary and I don’t want any projections or odd stuff like that going on.

Also, I am extremely appreciative of the way you have guided me, just spot on with your humour, tenacity and skill and I want to thank you very much indeed.

However before I get carried away I realize, of course, that this is only the beginning and that we could be wrong here and you may need to continue to guide me! ……..looking forward to hearing from you,

very best wishes,
Lindsay

[perrym]

Hi Lindsay,

Hey, great to hear back from you! I've not checked back for a couple of days, so apologies for the delay, I'll take a good look ASAP,

very best wishes,

Perry

[perrym]

Hello again Lindsay,

Thanks for your thorough answers, a really inspiring read :-)

[...] we could be wrong here [...]

really? your account seems very clear - so is this diffidence, a passing thought, or a real doubt?

are you unsure whether you have seen what you have seen, or unsure whether this is what others mean by 'the gateless gate' and such like?

best wishes,

Perry

[lindsay]

Hi Perry,

Thanks for your reply.

I’m not unsure about what I have seen, but do resonate with your suggestion of diffidence – fairly typical of ‘me’.

When I read others accounts of stepping through the gate, I relate strongly with what they are saying so it makes little sense to deny what’s been seen - yet the old habit of not being good enough/wise enough still seems to be lurking about.

Best wishes,

Lindsay