Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

[smi]

Hi Laura,

Sorry for a bit late response today. I’ve had some errands I had to take care of and didn’t have as much time. Please, even if I don’t respond every single day, keep writing and looking every day.

Here I am 6 years later, frustrated, angry, despairing and stuck. So when I found LU and saw its direct connection to Jed, I thought Hallelujah, at last, clarity about the process and someone to help me understand how the looking is done.

No worries. We’ll go through this “questioning everything” together. There may be some more confusion at times, but you can trust it will only be temporary. However I must warn you that I’ve never studied or read Jed Mckenna materials so I don’t know what vocabulary he was using. But on the other hand it is really irrelevant for our work together since all that matters is your direct experience as it happens now.

Me: Is self a feeling? Yes, I guess I can find a self—but define it only as a collection as memories, which break down into charged—highly charged emotions (that’s the feeling of it) and thoughts. Strong emotions, that drag me down, that spawn thoughts that perpetuate the emotions, that perpetuate the thoughts and so on. Location: All over me like the flu, but also threaded/attached at the heart / solar plexus.

OK, good. Let’s break that down a little bit more. You say you are collection of memories which break down into highly charged emotions and thoughts. What are memories? Could it be memories are nothing more but thoughts? When I was 10 years old this and this happened. Then at age xx this and this happened… etc… Aren’t sentences like this just thoughts? Memories being just a label that refer to thoughts about “past”?

You also say “strong emotions, that drag me down”. What is that “me” that is being dragged down?

And also the last sentence “All over me like the flu, but also threaded/attached at the heart / solar plexus.”. Is that present all the time or just sometimes? What about when there aren’t any sensations all over you and at the heart / solar plexus? Are you still here or disappear?

So I use the expression thread to acknowledge that the identification is getting thinner.

Great. :) And what is it that identifies? Sorry for being so blunt with questions, but those are exactly the kind of thoughts/words we rarely if ever question.

Me: Oh! I really liked my first answer, but I see you aren’t going to let me get away with that! Yes, I am enjoying this with you too. It’s keeping me from hurling myself off a cliff, which is why I probably am still in the struggle…

Yes, your first answer was lovely indeed, however very “diplomatic” as well. :) Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I find that answers that are more experientially based and more direct that even very small children could understand are better to keep this process simpler and easier. However please, do not censor your answers. Whatever comes - comes, and is perfect. :) There are no right or wrong answers.

Strong emotions, that drag me down, that spawn thoughts that perpetuate the emotions, that perpetuate the thoughts and so on. I can’t see it, I think I can feel it, I “hear” the incessant mind chatter. I can’t touch, taste, or smell it.

You say you can’t see it, you can’t touch, taste, or smell it but think you can feel it. So, if I understand correctly you can’t find “I” anywhere but in thought? Is that correct? Are you a thought?

By the way, did you notice you used "strong emotions, that drag me down" again? Maybe it would help if you described what this is in reality and what it means to you in as simple terms as possible. I would recommend you use few sentences to describe what it is in reality and then describe in few sentences the meaning of it. In other words separate description of reality and the meaning.

Me: Externally, nothing in reality. Internally, feelings of shape and location arise and subside depending on thoughts / emotions.

Yes, wonderful. Internally, is there a central hub or some sort of a center or focal point for those feelings that arise and subside?

I have skipped responses for last two statements for now as I don’t have time anymore but I will return to them. Besides I don’t want to put too much on your plate. You are doing really well and please, just keep looking.

Kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

2:16PM
I’ve got a cold today, overwhelm happening. Tired, weepy, despairing. All thoughts / feelings exaggerated. But I’ll stick to a few. Fear that I won’t succeed here, fear that if I do I still won’t be able to shed old painful human patterns, that’s a particularly scary one. Just thoughts / feelings happening, even as I believe it’s personal, even as I can’t find that self, “in reality”.

[smi]

Hi Laura,

You can always take a break whenever you need. I'll still be here ready to continue when you are. If fear is coming up and there is overwhelm I can certainly relate to how that feels. I had a lot of that in my past. But also from my experience I can guaranty you that whatever the fear is saying is simply not true.

Kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

YOU: Sorry for a bit late response today. I’ve had some errands I had to take care of and didn’t have as much time. Please, even if I don’t respond every single day, keep writing and looking every day.
Me: I recognize that you have a life with errands and all, I will post daily regardless, unless I’m completely unconscious ☺

YOU: I must warn you that I’ve never studied or read Jed Mckenna materials so I don’t know what vocabulary he was using. But on the other hand it is really irrelevant for our work together since all that matters is your direct experience as it happens now.
Me: It matters not an iota about Jed, given all the people I’ve read. Your voice is just fine, I need no other. I want no breaks, this is way overdue for me...but thanks for the offer.

[Laura68]

YOU: You say you are collection of memories which break down into highly charged emotions and thoughts. What are memories? Could it be memories are nothing more but thoughts? When I was 10 years old this and this happened. Then at age xx this and this happened…etc…Aren’t sentences like these just thoughts? Memories being just a label that refer to thoughts about “past”?
Me: Memories, emotions, thoughts, highly charged, the past, the self, seems to me that they are all Thoughts, all equal in status.

YOU: You also say “strong emotions, that drag me down”. What is that “me” that is being dragged down?
Me; Strong emotions, drag me down…every word of it points to a thought.. Couldn’t write a word that is not a thought. It’s all thoughts. So me is just a thought or collection of them.

YOU: If fear is coming up and there is overwhelm I can certainly relate to how that feels. I had a lot of that in my past. But also from my experience I can guaranty you that whatever the fear is saying is simply not true.
ME: Thank you for all those THOUGHTS, there is comfort in them for me. I’ve been pretty highly pressurized over the Gate for a long time, so as we converse the “THOUGHTS” are finally hitting the fan, the high pressure THOUGHTS are coming in a rush. All just THOUGHTS though. I welcome your “bluntness” (which by my standards is pretty tame), and as many questions as you have time to fire at me. Particularly if you think you might not be available the next day. I’ll take them in order and what I can’t finish on one day will be rolled into the next. Having something to chew on (these questions) is a great relief, even if other less comfy thoughts arising in the process. I’ll share them blow by blow.

YOU: You also say “strong emotions, that drag me down”. What is the “me” that is being dragged down?
ME: The “me” is a collection of sabotaging, (now that I’m recognizing that it’s all thoughts in infinite variations), thoughts of past failure, thoughts like “I’ll never be able to do this” When those emotional thoughts start running, any capacity to “see” them as nothing but thoughts, seems to go down the tubes, like a flash flood happening. Deeply immersed in the movie.

YOU: And also the last sentence “All over me like the flu, but also threaded/attached at the heart / solar plexus.”. Is that present all the time or just sometimes? What about when there aren’t any sensations all over you and at the heart / solar plexus? Are you still here or disappear?
Me: That’s not a question I can answer well from direct experience but searching through memory, because I am much more in the thought of self as we talk about it. There are some things I do that the mind is relatively quiet, a feeling more of flow, then I would say I’d be more disappeared.

YOU: RE: my quote “I use the expression thread to acknowledge that the identification is getting thinner.”
And what is it that identifies? Sorry for being so blunt with questions, but those are exactly the kind of thoughts/words we rarely if ever question.
Me: The THOUGHT, “my sense of self” is the identifier.

YOU: You say you can’t see it, you can’t touch, taste, or smell it but think you can feel it. So, if I understand correctly you can’t find “I” anywhere but in thought? Is that correct? Are you a thought?
Me: Yes, Yes, “I” am thought, every direct experience statement made is thought, every word I could write is thought, this computer, is thought.

YOU: By the way, did you notice you used "strong emotions, that drag me down" again? Maybe it would help if you described what this is in reality and what it means to you in as simple terms as possible. I would recommend you use few sentences to describe what it is in reality and then describe in few sentences the meaning of it. In other words separate description of reality and the meaning.
Me: Yes it was a deliberate copy/paste. What this is in reality, nothing. Getting brain freeze here. I don’t really understand this sentence,”…separate description from meaning.” What it means to me, a stream of sabotaging and painful thoughts with which I beat myself up, that arise under thought interpretations of pressured circumstances. To me it seems to express both description and meaning…

YOU: Internally, is there a central hub or some sort of a center or focal point for those feelings that arise and subside?
Me: Apparently not. Though there is a thought collective of “selfness” that feels like it operates as a center.

YOU: Please, even if I don’t respond every single day, keep writing and looking every day.
Me: Yes I will, at least I have a better “hands-on” experience with the questioning than a few days ago. I feel relieved at least for that, just hope I can actually do it for myself at this point.

[smi]

Hi Laura,

Me: Memories, emotions, thoughts, highly charged, the past, the self, seems to me that they are all Thoughts, all equal in status.
Me; Strong emotions, drag me down…every word of it points to a thought.. Couldn’t write a word that is not a thought. It’s all thoughts. So me is just a thought or collection of them.

Yes, lovely. :)

ME: The “me” is a collection of sabotaging, (now that I’m recognizing that it’s all thoughts in infinite variations), thoughts of past failure, thoughts like “I’ll never be able to do this” When those emotional thoughts start running, any capacity to “see” them as nothing but thoughts, seems to go down the tubes, like a flash flood happening. Deeply immersed in the movie.

Yes, all thoughts in infinite variations. Fantastic.

Me: That’s not a question I can answer well from direct experience but searching through memory, because I am much more in the thought of self as we talk about it. There are some things I do that the mind is relatively quiet, a feeling more of flow, then I would say I’d be more disappeared.

The question was merely an invitation to observe if that is true all the time. So, yes it can be answered from memory and also simply by observing if that is true now. Or if it is true now, or now, or in this moment…

Me: The THOUGHT, “my sense of self” is the identifier.

Yes, thought again. :)

Me: Yes, Yes, “I” am thought, every direct experience statement made is thought, every word I could write is thought, this computer, is thought.

Brilliant. We are getting really close. :)

Me: Apparently not. Though there is a thought collective of “selfness” that feels like it operates as a center.

Yes again, there definitely might be a feeling of some sort of center, but is there anything real behind it?

Great observations. So far we have discovered a bunch of thoughts about “I” with nothing behind them. Let’s go a bit deeper. I have a barrage of questions to ponder for you:

Close your eyes... Watch thoughts come and go....

Where do thoughts arise from? Where do thoughts go to?
Can you stop a thought that has arisen?
Can you choose to only think thoughts of a blue flower?
Can you choose to NOT think about a pink elephant?

and finally, here & now,

Can you think a thought?
Are you the thinker of thoughts?
Are they YOUR thoughts?

I’m looking forward to read your responses. Oh, and one more thing. You may have noticed I didn’t respond to few of your other responses. I intend to return to those later as it would be better to stay focused on only thing at the time. Scattered focus could sidetrack our investigation.

And as always kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

Hi Milan,
This is to acknowledge your posting of today. Feeling quite in the worst part of the cold thing going on. So I'm going to put off responding today and will pick it up tomorrow. In the meantime about all I have the energy to do is lie here, pillow over head, watching thoughts of all varieties come and go, seeing every time, that they are just thoughts...So I guess that's the point. No waste in that...
Thank You, Thank You, L

[Laura68]

September 20, 2013
Much better today. I’m sure yesterday was integrative.

YOU: The question was merely an invitation to observe if that is true all the time. So, yes it can be answered from memory and also simply by observing if that is true now. Or if it is true now, or now, or in this moment…
Me: Seems harder to observe in this moment of writing. I talked about disappearing when doing some things I feel very much in flow with. The recollection (as the word recollection would indicate) of “me” as disappeared, is retrospective. It’s not something that could be said at the time of disappeared because there is no operational “me” at that moment. I’m one with the activity. Awareness is acute during that time, yet simultaneously relaxed. No chatty mind, just following what comes up next. Example:
In the early 1970’s I drove a small delivery truck in NYC, a van. City traffic, very congested, people losing it, honking screaming etc. The more I drove, the more relaxed I became, the less I used the brake, just degrees of the accelerator. I had a large picture of the field of the street, I knew what was going on before it did. In this case it was not what I would say was a “favorite” activity, though I didn’t dislike it either. But at some point I just saw that it was better to go with the flow, and so I did. I still remember it pretty vividly. So I would have to say it is true now, now, and now…

Me: Though there is a thought collective of “selfness” that feels like it operates as a center.
YOU:Yes again, there definitely might be a feeling of some sort of center, but is there anything real behind it?
Me: I see now that there isn’t anything real behind it as it can only be thought. So it seems there was an expectation I didn’t know that I had, that the feeling of “I or Me” center would just disappear instead of continuing. The shift is in accepting it in the context of its purpose. I’m still in a body for the time being. Handy to have something operating to negotiate the world. Not quite so necessary if I decide to go live in a cave and have a little food dropped outside the cell daily.

YOU: Great observations. So far we have discovered a bunch of thoughts about “I” with nothing behind them. Let’s go a bit deeper. I have a barrage of questions to ponder for you: Close your eyes... Watch thoughts come and go....

YOU: Where do thoughts arise from? Where do thoughts go to?
Me: How could “I” possibly answer that, something that itself is an afterthought, not built for this kind of work. Looking directly however, this body is a receiver, so it picks up stuff to a greater or lesser degree that is just going on, depending on whether it’s looping its home network, (the self), or tuned to a broader range. But my best response is, that thought arising/subsiding happens from beyond the thought collective “I”.

YOU: Can you stop a thought that has arisen?
Me: I’d say no, it’s already there, cat’s out of the bag. There is the option of turning attention, but I don’t think that is the same thing as stopping what already is.

YOU: Can you choose to only think thoughts of a blue flower?
Me: I don’t know, I haven’t experienced being able to think ONLY thoughts of any one thing for long…I don’t know if it’s a choice.

YOU: Can you choose to NOT think about a pink elephant?
Me: The “I/Me” seems to think it makes choices, but in my experience, the moment you asked the question, there were pink elephants everywhere, (a very undignified color for them by the way). No I don’t think there is choosing happening, letting go of the thought that I choose anything, feels relieving.

YOU: …and finally, here & now,
ME: …as if we haven’t been all along, :)

YOU: Can you think a thought?
Me: No. I’m receiving, just along for the ride. Prone at times to “thinking” I’m somebody that’s thinking.

YOU: Are you the thinker of thoughts?
Me: “I” am not the thinker, only an after effect.

YOU: Are they YOUR thoughts?
Me: They don’t start out that way. Sometimes, the “I/Me” stakes a claim and kidnaps them into a “personal loop. But that doesn’t change the truth, that they are not MY thoughts.

YOU: I’m looking forward to read your responses. Oh, and one more thing. You may have noticed I didn’t respond to few of your other responses. I intend to return to those later as it would be better to stay focused on only thing at the time. Scattered focus could sidetrack our investigation.
Me: I’m glad you are keeping track, for now I’ve forgotten what has been set aside.

[smi]

Hi Laura,

I’m glad you are feeling better. Few more pointers today…

Me: Seems harder to observe in this moment of writing. I talked about disappearing when doing some things I feel very much in flow with. The recollection (as the word recollection would indicate) of “me” as disappeared, is retrospective. It’s not something that could be said at the time of disappeared because there is no operational “me” at that moment. I’m one with the activity. Awareness is acute during that time, yet simultaneously relaxed. No chatty mind, just following what comes up next.

Yes, being “one with the activity” takes that seeming “I” away. But even that is just another thought, just another appearance. I would like to propose a simple exercise that may help clarify things a bit more. It is described in following Ilona’s article:
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Please read it, do the exercise and report what you observed.

Me: I see now that there isn’t anything real behind it as it can only be thought. So it seems there was an expectation I didn’t know that I had, that the feeling of “I or Me” center would just disappear instead of continuing.

Yes, even when you know something is optical illusion for example, you still see it the same. Nothing changes. Even this “feeling” (and I emphasize a word feeling) of “I” center may in time disappear or it may not. What matters is seeing it for it is – only a feeling, a thought, nothing tangible in reality, no substance whatsoever, no actual “I”.

Me: How could “I” possibly answer that, something that itself is an afterthought, not built for this kind of work. Looking directly however, this body is a receiver, so it picks up stuff to a greater or lesser degree that is just going on, depending on whether it’s looping its home network, (the self), or tuned to a broader range. But my best response is, that thought arising/subsiding happens from beyond the thought collective “I”.

What do you mean by “something that itself is an afterthought”? What is that? Does it have shape, color, location, size, etc…? Or is that just another thought?

In direct experience, relying only on senses (seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling) how does “body is a receiver” look like, sound like, feel like? Can that really be seen, heard, touched? Or is that an assumption?

If you ignore the “content” of thoughts for a moment, and ignore what thoughts are pointing to and simply examine direct perception of thoughts, how do thoughts show up? Is there a process to it? Or do they simply show up and disappear a moment later? Observe only what can be directly experienced and for the moment put aside whatever assumptions may show up as well. In this experiment we are not interested in assumptions but only in what can be directly perceived.

YOU: Can you stop a thought that has arisen?
Me: I’d say no, it’s already there, cat’s out of the bag. There is the option of turning attention, but I don’t think that is the same thing as stopping what already is.

How does this option of turning attention work? Again, please look only at what can be perceived directly. Isn’t “there is the option of turning attention” just another thought? Where did this thought come from? Did you pick that thought out of selection of thoughts intentionally or did that thought simply appear out of nowhere?

Thoughts can be very compelling. It is so easy to get lost in stories and in thoughts after thoughts after thoughts. The trick is for the moment to ignore the story, to ignore where thoughts are pointing to and simply look at nature of thoughts themselves. Is there really any control whatsoever over thoughts? Just look. Can you be 100% certain what your next thought is going to be?

YOU: Can you choose to only think thoughts of a blue flower?
Me: I don’t know, I haven’t experienced being able to think ONLY thoughts of any one thing for long…I don’t know if it’s a choice.

Yes, most likely not for very long. But just for fun try it. Pick any thought and try to hold on to it. I’m certain you will notice that sooner or later other thoughts will show up (without you choosing them).

Me: The “I/Me” seems to think it makes choices, but in my experience, the moment you asked the question, there were pink elephants everywhere, (a very undignified color for them by the way). No I don’t think there is choosing happening, letting go of the thought that I choose anything, feels relieving.

Indeed, thoughts show up without any choice.

YOU: Can you think a thought?
Me: No. I’m receiving, just along for the ride. Prone at times to “thinking” I’m somebody that’s thinking.

Examine if this is true. What is receiving? Where is that which is receiving? Isn’t “I’m receiving” an assumption, a concept, an idea? Can that be perceived directly?

YOU: Are you the thinker of thoughts?
Me: “I” am not the thinker, only an after effect.

What is “after effect” in reality, as a direct experience? Could you please describe it?

YOU: Are they YOUR thoughts?
Me: They don’t start out that way. Sometimes, the “I/Me” stakes a claim and kidnaps them into a “personal loop. But that doesn’t change the truth, that they are not MY thoughts.

It seems to me you are teetering on the edge here. Partly you see through and partly there is still tendency to identify. Maybe it would be good idea to revisit all questions about thinking after you’ve done that labeling exercise I suggested at the top. Could you please go through all those questions about thinking again but use only language from the second part of that labeling exercise and use very simple reporting language only. Simply describing what is being perceived. I’m curious how you will feel about your answers in this other form.

Overall we are making great progress. I hope you are enjoying this inquiry and exercises as much as I do? Please keep looking and talk to you soon…

Kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

Sept 21, 4:55PM
Very odd, kept checking for an email all day long that you had posted today and just a few minutes ago it occurred to me to check the site itself to see that you had. I just didn't get notification. So will get respond before my day is done.
I attended an event last night that Elona was present at. Very nice to meet her.
Jed Mckenna, is really the reason this site LU exists. Ilona read his books and as a result had awakening. At some point later, she refined the questions that are used here. Direct Inquiry, indirectly related to a process Jed referred to as Autoalysis-self consumption. Just thought you would find that of interest.
Later, L

[Laura68]

September 21, 2013
11:32PM

YOU: Yes, being “one with the activity” takes that seeming “I” away. But even that is just another thought, just another appearance.
Me: I wouldn’t know how else to express it. Yes, even before the exercise I would say absolutely yes to your statement. Yet can we converse, without moving from experience to thought labeling, appearances, to be able to form sentences? It is the currency we use to communicate in this particular way?

Me: Ok, did the exercise. Easy to understand and execute. But there is confusion about some of the questions and statements.
ILONA: Again watch what is happening in the body.
Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Me: 1. All thoughts/statements begun with “I”, felt more personal, relating to thoughts of me. No notice of any difference in physical sensations of tightening or relaxing. Perhaps I’m just too used to relating this way.
2. All statements starting with verbs felt more direct. There was a feeling of relaxation. Labeling using the verbs only is relatively truer (direct). Without labels, there is just experience. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it? (I’m not sure I understand this question, so will answer the best I can) They seem to affect the experience in terms of “I/Me” part, lots of extra mind activity can happen associated with “I/Me” labeling. But at the same time they have no real effect on experience. Labels describe experience.

ILONA: Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I.
Me: Perhaps you can help me with this sentence. If there is no “I” labeling experience, how would “one” be aware of getting lost, that getting lost happened?
I’ll try this exercise again tomorrow and see what happens.

YOU: Yes, even when you know something is optical illusion for example, you still see it the same. Nothing changes. Even this “feeling” (and I emphasize a word feeling) of “I” center may in time disappear or it may not. What matters is seeing it for it is – only a feeling, a thought, nothing tangible in reality, no substance whatsoever, no actual “I”.
Me: Thank you, very helpful.

YOU: What do you mean by “something that itself is an afterthought”? What is that? Does it have shape, color, location, size, etc…? Or is that just another thought?
Me: Let me just try to answer the question again: “Where do thoughts arise from? Where do thoughts go to?” I don’t know, they just come and go.

YOU: In direct experience, relying only on senses (seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling) how does “body is a receiver” look like, sound like, feel like? Can that really be seen, heard, touched? Or is that an assumption?
Me: It’s an assumption.

YOU: How do thoughts show up? Is there a process to it? Or do they simply show up and disappear a moment later?
Me: I don’t know how they show up, have no awareness of a process. All that could be said is that they show up and disappear a moment later.

YOU: How does this option of turning attention work?
Me: When I wrote this originally “I” was thinking about times when thoughts were arising that “I” did not want. Then another thought arose about “I” wanted instead to ignore the first thought, another thought arose to turn attention elsewhere. “I” had a thought that those thoughts were intentional, but now “I” am thinking they all just arose. You asked me to perceive directly here and I’m not sure if I did.

YOU: Simply look at nature of thoughts themselves. Is there really any control whatsoever over thoughts? Just look. Can you be 100% certain what your next thought is going to be?
Me: No control. No Certainty 100 percent, as to what next thought will be.

YOU: Yes, most likely not for very long. But just for fun try it. Pick any thought and try to hold on to it. I’m certain you will notice that sooner or later other thoughts will show up (without you choosing them).
Me: Exactly, that is why I answered that way, sooner or later other thoughts show up…so now I know that it’s not a choice.

YOU: Can you think a thought?
Me: No. I’m receiving, just along for the ride. Prone at times to “thinking” I’m somebody that’s thinking
Me RE: Above. The direct answer then, is that thoughts are arising and subsiding. Everything I said about receiving, and after effect were concepts, ideas, and assumptions that cannot be perceived directly.

YOU: It seems to me you are teetering on the edge here. Partly you see through and partly there is still tendency to identify.
Me: I read through the dialogue of the day a few times before I start responding. By the time I’ve reached this sentence again, after the exercise and a slow going through each question. I feel like I really see the difference better now. Now I am going back through to see if the answers I’ve given conform to simple perception. A few small changes.

Me: Yes I am enjoying this, thank you for walking with me. L

[smi]

Hi Laura,

I attended an event last night that Elona was present at. Very nice to meet her.
Jed Mckenna, is really the reason this site LU exists. Ilona read his books and as a result had awakening. At some point later, she refined the questions that are used here. Direct Inquiry, indirectly related to a process Jed referred to as Autoalysis-self consumption. Just thought you would find that of interest.

Lovely. Thanks for telling me. Maybe I’ll look into his books sometime. My reading list queue is already way too long. :)

Me: I wouldn’t know how else to express it. Yes, even before the exercise I would say absolutely yes to your statement. Yet can we converse, without moving from experience to thought labeling, appearances, to be able to form sentences? It is the currency we use to communicate in this particular way?

I think I already mentioned before that language is very inadequate in trying to express what we are investigating. It would be pointless trying to change the language to fit some “new” concepts and ideas when we are actually trying to see beyond that. There is actual world of experience that is already here seen as it is. And then there is a world of language, ideas, concepts, assumption, suppositions overlaid on top of it trying to describe what is. The problem is this other world of language is not only one layer on top of reality but there are probably as many layers as our imagination allows. Often we substitute this “mind made world” for reality because this thought abstraction mechanism can literally create something out of nothing and hence we perceive things that are not real. We start to believe in imaginary “I” where there isn’t and believe it is real. Like believing in Santa Clause as a child and later learning that it didn’t exist. That it was only an imaginary character.

So what I’m trying to point at is that before there are any conclusion, judgment, assumptions, descriptions, labeling, any liking or disliking there is already seeing happening. Content of thoughts is just a layer on top of this direct seeing abstracting it into something else.

So the answer we are looking for is not in thoughts, it is not in the mind. The answer is simply seeing what is before thoughts and seeing thoughts for what they are. No need to change language or trying to expand vocabulary by some new ideas. That will not help in my experience.

Me: 1. All thoughts/statements begun with “I”, felt more personal, relating to thoughts of me. No notice of any difference in physical sensations of tightening or relaxing. Perhaps I’m just too used to relating this way.
2. All statements starting with verbs felt more direct. There was a feeling of relaxation. Labeling using the verbs only is relatively truer (direct). Without labels, there is just experience. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it? (I’m not sure I understand this question, so will answer the best I can) They seem to affect the experience in terms of “I/Me” part, lots of extra mind activity can happen associated with “I/Me” labeling. But at the same time they have no real effect on experience. Labels describe experience.

Yes, without labels there is just experience. Wonderful.

ILONA: Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I.
Me: Perhaps you can help me with this sentence. If there is no “I” labeling experience, how would “one” be aware of getting lost, that getting lost happened?
I’ll try this exercise again tomorrow and see what happens.

If there is an assumption of some kind of an agent or “I” that is “doing” things then yes, the statement does not make sense. However seeing that no agent or “I” is necessary for things to happen there is recognition of truth in that statement.

Right now seeing is happening, is it not? Are you seeing or is it just happening? Can you in any way control whether or not seeing is happening?
Right now hearing is happening, is it not? Are you hearing or is it just happening? Can you in any way control whether or not hearing is happening?
Right now sensing (tactile) is happening, is it not? Are you doing that or is it just happening? …

If there is no agent or “I” doing all those things above, could it be that even getting lost in the story can just happen, without anyone doing it, being lost there, with or without label “I”?

I don’t know, they just come and go.

Yes. :) They just come and go.

Me: It’s an assumption.

Yes.

Me: I don’t know how they show up, have no awareness of a process. All that could be said is that they show up and disappear a moment later.

Yes, again.

Me: No control. No Certainty 100 percent, as to what next thought will be.

Wonderful.

Me: Exactly, that is why I answered that way, sooner or later other thoughts show up…so now I know that it’s not a choice.

YOU: Can you think a thought?
Me: No. I’m receiving, just along for the ride. Prone at times to “thinking” I’m somebody that’s thinking
Me RE: Above. The direct answer then, is that thoughts are arising and subsiding. Everything I said about receiving, and after effect were concepts, ideas, and assumptions that cannot be perceived directly.

So, we can say you can’t think a thought. Thoughts just show up on their own. There is no thinker.

I feel like I really see the difference better now. Now I am going back through to see if the answers I’ve given conform to simple perception. A few small changes.

It’s a big change. Belief in thinker is one of the major hooks. So, seeing through that is a big step in my experience.

I would recommend you stay with this inquiry of “thinker” for a while. Test, check, look and pay attention to how thoughts show up. Look at difference between direct experience and content of thoughts.

And as always kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

September 22, 2013

Was posting what follows before I discovered you had already responded, so for now, I’m posting this and will get back to your today’s post later

Thank you for this exercise, integrating. Did it again this morning over coffee. Clearer understanding than first time.

2 memories arose:
1. My brother is still young enough to sleep in a crib. That makes me 5 to 7 years old. Sitting on the floor in his bedroom at one of the corners of the crib that has a spring that plays a role in the raising/lowering of the panel so one doesn’t have to lean way over to place or retrieve the baby. With the panel in the closed position so the baby can’t roll or get out, the spring at the base is free to be pulled up its guide and then released so it just drops back down and bounces a few times on impact. (don’t know whether cribs are actually constructed this way today.) I don’t think he is even in the crib at that moment. I am alone, sitting raising the spring, letting it drop over and over, fully content.
2. 7 to 10 years old, hot summer day, in the garage which is partly dug into the earth, so cooler. There is a broad pail, not a single bucket size. It is filled with birdseed, I am small enough to fit in it, sitting in a “sea” of cool birdseed, sifting it with my fingers, swirling it around the body, nothing else, no otherness.

[Laura68]

September 23
YOU: I would recommend you stay with this inquiry of “thinker” for a while. Test, check, look and pay attention to how thoughts show up. Look at difference between direct experience and content of thoughts.

Me: This is what I want to continue looking at and integrate today. I probably won't post more than this acknowledgement until tomorrow. I have an unusually busy day, leaving shortly, 8AM and not finishing / returning home until 7PM.

Thank you, L

[Laura68]

September 24, 2013
10:15AM

YOU: I would recommend you stay with this inquiry of “thinker” for a while. Test, check, look and pay attention to how thoughts show up. Look at difference between direct experience and content of thoughts.

Me: Good day Milan. Your description of teetering on the edge was perfectly put. Attention wavers from I / me labeling, to direct experience back and forth, (not deliberately so, but as in falling out of direct experience back into I / me thinking, then discovering that and shifting focus back), as in following the exercise you gave me.

YOU: Test, check, look and pay attention to how thoughts show up.
Me: If I were to do that for myself, am I asking questions of a thought? What would they be? OR Am I simply noticing the difference between a thought that starts with I/me vs one that is direct experience?

Thanks, L