Please help me to see

[origins44]

Good afternoon, Steve!
Today has been interesting. There were some questions that were a bit sticky but you will see below. I really appreciate your feedback.

origins44 wrote:
The only thing that I see as a direct experience of the mind is sensations that I feel in the head.

Tell me more about these sensations. :) Do they add up to experiencing something called "mind"?

To be more specific; sometimes it’s a buzzing, other times it is a pressure between the eyes and across the forehead. If there is a really disturbing thought then it feels like heavy contraction where I want to close my eyes. I don’t know if it adds up to experience the “mind” or if they are just simply sensations in response to thoughts….it feels like these are more a sensational response. I would not even know what a “mind” looks like unless we are referring to the brain and I know what that looks like, but as I realized before the brain does not generate the thoughts, they just come. But what if the brain is a container for them? I mean, if we did not exist physically then would there be thought?? Perhaps I am over analyzing this but I am being honest.

Steve wrote:
So is there a thinker? Are "you" the thinker of thoughts?

Are you the thinker?

Oh, no. There is no “thinker” that is found. There are just thoughts passing or hanging around, whichever.
A question did arise that I am having trouble looking at: if there is no “thinker” then who decides “I am going to think more positively or breathe more deeply or focus attention on certain areas of the body”? Is it just decided after there is a prompt? This question arose during my yoga practice today.

So tell me, when you simply open the refrigerator door and look directly inside, what do you see in response to these:

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

When looking directly at these questions I see that there is nothing that experiences. Experience just happens and thoughts create an ownership of that experience or label it or sort it. I observe this daily now.

Who thinks?

Well, you see this is a sticky one. When looking it appears that thinking is happening but also I have the experience of thinking if I choose to think about something (i.e. the breath, the pose I am in, etc.) For this one it feels like both are true. As if there are thoughts that arise and also thoughts that are chosen (i.e. imagining I am on a beach) imaging that I am on a beach didn’t just happen, there was a decision that was/is made to go the in thought.

What does?

Doing happens. Typing this happens, drinking tea happens, looking out the window happens.

What is aware?

Awareness is aware. There is just awareness happening. Again, another question arose during yoga when the teacher said “bring your awareness to X body part” looking at this I was like “well, who brings the awareness to the body part?” There is feeling of focusing on a body part. I am still looking at all these questions that came up today during yoga…..
Always grateful for your help,
Jessica

[Steve]

Hi, Jessica! It's nice to see these answers and questions!

To be more specific; sometimes it’s a buzzing, other times it is a pressure between the eyes and across the forehead. If there is a really disturbing thought then it feels like heavy contraction where I want to close my eyes. I don’t know if it adds up to experience the “mind” or if they are just simply sensations in response to thoughts….it feels like these are more a sensational response. I would not even know what a “mind” looks like...

Nope. Neither would I. But I don't think these sensations are what's usually meant by the word, and it sounds as if you don't either. :)

When looking directly at these questions I see that there is nothing that experiences. Experience just happens and thoughts create an ownership of that experience or label it or sort it. I observe this daily now.

Awareness is aware. There is just awareness happening.

Lovely. Very nice!

A question did arise that I am having trouble looking at: if there is no “thinker” then who decides “I am going to think more positively or breathe more deeply or focus attention on certain areas of the body”? Is it just decided after there is a prompt? This question arose during my yoga practice today.

Well, you see this is a sticky one. When looking it appears that thinking is happening but also I have the experience of thinking if I choose to think about something (i.e. the breath, the pose I am in, etc.) For this one it feels like both are true. As if there are thoughts that arise and also thoughts that are chosen (i.e. imagining I am on a beach) imaging that I am on a beach didn’t just happen, there was a decision that was/is made to go the in thought.

Again, another question arose during yoga when the teacher said “bring your awareness to X body part” looking at this I was like “well, who brings the awareness to the body part?” There is feeling of focusing on a body part. I am still looking at all these questions that came up today during yoga…..

Yes, some of this seems very mysterious, especially in the light of what you've discovered about thoughts (no control) and choices (no chooser).

It's possible to probe very deeply on these questions and discover that none of our everyday assumptions about cause and effect can be verified in direct experience. But we usually defer that kind of depth until after the gate because it has no direct bearing on seeing through the illusion of separate self, and not everyone is interested in such an intricate dissection. :)

For now, go back to your previous discoveries about thoughts just arising with no control and about choices just happening with no one doing the choosing. See whether these new questions aren't just more complicated instances of the same situations you've looked at.

Your yoga teacher gives an instruction. It may be about thinking or moving or shifting attention. You notice that there are then thoughts, movements, or changes in attention that match what the teacher said.

Do you directly experience a "you" deciding to do something in response to the teacher's instruction? Or do you simply notice that there's a response, and then you notice a thought, "I chose to do that because the teacher said so"?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Thank you for your response, Steve!

we usually defer that kind of depth until after the gate because it has no direct bearing on seeing through the illusion of separate self, and not everyone is interested in such an intricate dissection. :)

If I ever make it through, there would be great interest in this :)

Do you directly experience a "you" deciding to do something in response to the teacher's instruction? Or do you simply notice that there's a response, and then you notice a thought, "I chose to do that because the teacher said so"?

I see where you are pointing on this one. Yes, I can see that. Attention just moves when prompted and so does moving. I want to look a bit deeper into this but every time I look...really try to look it's like thoughts lock up and attention moves somewhere else. Today I was looking at more questions (Gateless Gatecrashers) and every time I look, this happens. It feels really frustrating when there is no focus or when thoughts that come up and distract...!! Taking this and going to investigate further. I will write more tomorrow...

always grateful,
Jessica

[Steve]

Hi, Jessica.

If I ever make it through, there would be great interest in this :)

Great! I'll remember. And do not be concerned about your progress. You're doing very well indeed.

I want to look a bit deeper into this but every time I look...really try to look it's like thoughts lock up and attention moves somewhere else. Today I was looking at more questions (Gateless Gatecrashers) and every time I look, this happens. It feels really frustrating when there is no focus or when thoughts that come up and distract...!!

Yes, it can be frustrating when thoughts and attention seem to wander when you just want them to behave. Here are two suggestions that may help. One, do a couple of minutes of eyes-closed relaxation breathing before you start your inquiry. No particular objective. Just relax, breathe, and let experience be what it is. Two, try to avoid using thought as your tool of inquiry, or thinking about experience right as it's happening. (I may be mistaken, but I get a hint of this when you say that "thoughts lock up.") Instead, just look and notice how experience unfolds before you describe it in a narrative.

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Hello, Steve

helpful feedback. Thank you!

One, do a couple of minutes of eyes-closed relaxation breathing before you start your inquiry. No particular objective. Just relax, breathe, and let experience be what it is.

Going to give this one a try tonight. I have not been meditating the past few days and wonder if this may be why thoughts are a little more rampant....

Two, try to avoid using thought as your tool of inquiry, or thinking about experience right as it's happening. (I may be mistaken, but I get a hint of this when you say that "thoughts lock up.")

That is exactly what has been happening. I have been thinking about things when they happen and using thought to try and look into questions, situations, etc...I am trying too hard...even if there is no "I" that can try ;) Often there is thoughts of "why aren't you getting this?' and "you should be further along" I just notice these and any feelings.

Instead, just look and notice how experience unfolds before you describe it in a narrative.

Did this today (when I noticed labeling) and there is difference. Less strain.

always grateful,
Jessica

[Steve]

Hi, Jessica.

That is exactly what has been happening. I have been thinking about things when they happen and using thought to try and look into questions, situations, etc...I am trying too hard...even if there is no "I" that can try ;) Often there is thoughts of "why aren't you getting this?' and "you should be further along" I just notice these and any feelings.

Ah-ha. Good to notice this. It's trickier when you're investigating something you remember, like following the yoga teacher's instructions, compared to simply looking here-now (like in the refrigerator). You have to form a mental image of what happened, and this seems to engage thought from the start.

It may help if instead of remembering yoga class, you create a similar situation here-now that you can observe without engaging memory. You could play a guided meditation audio, for example, that has similar visualization instructions. That would let you watch what actually happens while you seem to follow the instructions.

Keep it simple. Just like looking to see what's in the fridge. When you look in the fridge, seeing happens with absolutely no effort, right? Isn't that actually quite amazing? You don't do anything special. Seeing just happens.

Let me know if this helps.

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

You have to form a mental image of what happened, and this seems to engage thought from the start.

yes! that pretty much sums that up!

You could play a guided meditation audio, for example, that has similar visualization instructions. That would let you watch what actually happens while you seem to follow the instructions.

I did that today and I did notice that when instructed to moved "my" attention or energy before thoughts came into label it it had already been done. So strange....but there were other times during the meditation that thoughts were arising so often and so quickly that I had the sense of pulling the attention back to following instruction.
Another activity that I did today was a dance instructional video (I know, laugh it up!) but, I noticed that before thoughts came up to label (not 100% of the time) that the body was already following the instructions and moving without thought. Then there were thoughts "you aren't getting this" "your count is off" etc.

When you look in the fridge, seeing happens with absolutely no effort, right? Isn't that actually quite amazing?
The only time I felt effort was when my attention was pulled away from the meditation and followed the thoughts and then I would refocus....i know...not the "correct" answer in this case but honest.

with gratitude,
Jessica

[Steve]

I did that today and I did notice that when instructed to moved "my" attention or energy before thoughts came into label it it had already been done. So strange....but there were other times during the meditation that thoughts were arising so often and so quickly that I had the sense of pulling the attention back to following instruction.

The only time I felt effort was when my attention was pulled away from the meditation and followed the thoughts and then I would refocus....i know...not the "correct" answer in this case but honest.

Yes, naturally you noticed a sense of pulling the attention back, a feeling of effort, a sense of refocusing. That's quite all right. Why wouldn't it be?

But is there anything in that experience that makes it "you" that pulled the attention back? Is there anything in the experience that makes it "you" that felt or exerted effort? Is there anything in the experience that makes it "you" that refocused? Aren't you simply noticing that all these things just happen, regardless of whether or not there's a feeling of effort?

Look! Do "you" do? Do "you" exert effort? Do "you" refocus? Is there a "you" anywhere to be found outside of thoughts?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Hello, Steve!

But is there anything in that experience that makes it "you" that pulled the attention back?

there is no separate entity that pulls it back, it feels as though attention is moving back to what the original focus is but sometimes it really feels like effort, like tension in the head and squeezing around the eyes, like fighting with the thoughts.There is a dialog that is going on in the head and it feels like 2 sides; a "me" and the thoughts. I know that they are all just thought, it doesn't matter but it still feels like there is a "me" when this happens and it is because of this that it feels like this "I" persists....I know it does not exist intellectually but it is still there. Am I just not looking hard enough?

Is there anything in the experience that makes it "you" that felt or exerted effort? Is there anything in the experience that makes it "you" that refocused?

There is nothing in direct experience that makes a "me" that exerted effort, effort was simply exerted...only the thought that it was "me" that exerted the effort is what makes "me" want to believe this. The thought. There is a feeling of exerting effort, a feeling of tension or tightening in the body but that is not "me".....starting to see something here....like I am on the edge of seeing it all....

Aren't you simply noticing that all these things just happen, regardless of whether or not there's a feeling of effort?

yes, I do simply notice but then were does the effort come from? Is it simply a thought reaction to another thought? I mean since there is no "me" to exert effort. Or is it that effort is desiring to be exerted? Chasing a white rabbit on this one...

Look! Do "you" do? Do "you" exert effort? Do "you" refocus? Is there a "you" anywhere to be found outside of thoughts?

No, "I" don't exert the effort but then why would effort even be exerted if "I" don't need to? Attention is going to move where it moves, why effort? Too intellectual here? I am pulling it apart too much?

in deep gratitude,
Jessica

[Steve]

Am I just not looking hard enough?

You're probably looking too hard. :) Relax. Just like looking for milk in the fridge.

where does the effort come from? Is it simply a thought reaction to another thought? I mean since there is no "me" to exert effort. Or is it that effort is desiring to be exerted? Chasing a white rabbit on this one...

It may help if you look at ordinary physical effort rather than mental effort. You're getting a little tangled up because thoughts are already engaged, as you also saw in the "remembering yoga class" example. Find a way to engage physical effort, like walking uphill or upstairs until you notice effort. Simply watch how it happens.

What sensations do you notice? What aspects of the direct experience make it "effort"? Are "you" exerting effort or is effort just happening? Does hearing require a hearer? Does exerting effort require a someone who exerts it?

I know that they are all just thought, it doesn't matter but it still feels like there is a "me" when this happens and it is because of this that it feels like this "I" persists....I know it does not exist intellectually but it is still there.

Exactly what is still there? You may need a magnifying glass for this, but still no more effort than looking in the fridge. Is it an emotion? What emotion? Joy? Sadness? Or is it more like a sensation? Tension somewhere? Tingling somewhere? Aching somewhere? Do a few emotions or sensations add up to a "you" that's separate from the universe and running your life?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Hello, Steve

You're probably looking too hard. :) Relax. Just like looking for milk in the fridge.

Yes, efforting...

It may help if you look at ordinary physical effort rather than mental effort. You're getting a little tangled up because thoughts are already engaged, as you also saw in the "remembering yoga class" example. Find a way to engage physical effort, like walking uphill or upstairs until you notice effort. Simply watch how it happens.

This is much easier if I focus on the physical! Today I noticed when there was effort when I was going about the day...just physical nothing else. There is a point in the commute when everyone gets off the train and runs up the stairs to the street and it is a couple flights of stairs, I noticed that there was effort to move up the stairs but there was not a separate entity that was moving the legs or arms, they just moved up the stairs.

What sensations do you notice? What aspects of the direct experience make it "effort"? Are "you" exerting effort or is effort just happening? Does hearing require a hearer? Does exerting effort require a someone who exerts it?

I notice sensations of movement in the legs and arms, the sensation of the wind against the skin and hair, and the feel of the cool air going into the lungs.The only time that effort is felt is when I am working out and feel like "I" am exerting effort but, then I realized that effort is being exerted but "I" is not doing it, there is a thought and then an action but not an "I" that does it. "I" cannot effort, it just can't. So, in conclusion I feel as though there is no effort on the physical level from a "me" though, I do notice that the label "I" is attached to the feeling of effort as if to claim it for it's own. Hearing just happens but it does require the ability to do so otherwise it would not be part of experience. Effort does require something there to exert it an entity or organism of some sort or it would not be effort...then again, the sun does not effort to rise it just does and a tree does not effort to grow, it just does, even if it grows through a fence and it appears that effort is being exuded it is only a pointer, what if there is no effort at all just the illusion and label of it? Rambling a bit with my thoughts here...

Exactly what is still there? You may need a magnifying glass for this, but still no more effort than looking in the fridge. Is it an emotion? What emotion? Joy? Sadness? Or is it more like a sensation? Tension somewhere? Tingling somewhere? Aching somewhere? Do a few emotions or sensations add up to a "you" that's separate from the universe and running your life?

Okay this one took a bit but here is what I saw (and I am still looking); so, "I" appears more when there is anxiety or sadness felt, usually anxiety and then sadness because "I" am feeling anxious. That is when a separate self is felt the most. Then attaching to thoughts begins anxiety rises higher, more thoughts, more "me"

in deep gratitude,
Jessica

[Steve]

I realized that effort is being exerted but "I" is not doing it, there is a thought and then an action but not an "I" that does it. "I" cannot effort, it just can't. So, in conclusion I feel as though there is no effort on the physical level from a "me" though, I do notice that the label "I" is attached to the feeling of effort as if to claim it for it's own.

That's good to see!

Effort does require something there to exert it an entity or organism of some sort or it would not be effort...then again, the sun does not effort to rise it just does and a tree does not effort to grow, it just does, even if it grows through a fence and it appears that effort is being exuded it is only a pointer, what if there is no effort at all just the illusion and label of it? Rambling a bit with my thoughts here...

Yes, you are rambling. This is thought stuff, not direct experience.

Just look at the experience. When it feels as if effort is being exerted, what are you experiencing directly? Perhaps a burning sensation in the muscles. Perhaps a pressure sensation of pushing or pulling. Perhaps a thought saying "This is hard. It's taking a lot of effort."

Do you directly experience a "you" exerting effort? What is the concept "effort" except a thought claiming to tie together those sensations?

"I" appears more when there is anxiety or sadness felt, usually anxiety and then sadness because "I" am feeling anxious. That is when a separate self is felt the most. Then attaching to thoughts begins anxiety rises higher, more thoughts, more "me"

You seem to be saying that you are the one that emotes. Is that what you mean?

If so, then take a look at emotions just as you looked at thoughts earlier. Do you control what emotions appear? Can you decide to feel one way or to stop feeling? Is it true to say that "you emote"? Do you directly experience a "you" emoting? Or do you just notice the emotions appearing?

That is when a separate self is felt the most.

What experience does this describe? What are you experiencing directly when you say "a separate self is felt"? I don't mean the anxiety, sadness, etc. I mean just the feeling of a separate self. What feeling is that? Can you separate it into components like muscle tension or tingling? What does a separate self look like, sound like, feel like?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Thank you for your patience, Steve

Just look at the experience. When it feels as if effort is being exerted, what are you experiencing directly?

When walking up stairs there is the feeling of burning in the muscles, pushing through the feet, contracting of the calves and respiration increasing.

Do you directly experience a "you" exerting effort? What is the concept "effort" except a thought claiming to tie together those sensations?

I do not directly experience a "me" efforting....there is only a thought claiming that "I" am exerting effort. The concept of effort is just a thought pointing to an action with a feeling. That is it. When looking for a "me" in effort nothing comes up in direct experience.

You seem to be saying that you are the one that emotes. Is that what you mean?

Yes, that is what I mean. That there is a sense of "I" emoting...

Do you control what emotions appear?

I was thinking about this the other day because there are so many emotions that bubble up and then "I" comes in...I remembered that there is no "I" that controls what comes up. Over the past 2 days there will be a strong emotion and then thoughts of "I need to do, be and control this or that" and then I would stop and ask "who? who needs to do this?" and then, space in the thoughts and feeling would occur.

Can you decide to feel one way or to stop feeling?

HA! If there were a time where this was tested the most it has been the past few days and I can confirm a big whopping NO.

Is it true to say that "you emote"? Do you directly experience a "you" emoting? Or do you just notice the emotions appearing?

goodness, no...after reading this question and looking there was a realization that there is no entity "I" that emotes, in fact, when I looked feeling confident that there was an "I", there was nothing except emotions rising and falling. When I saw this the "stressful long day" label started to lift at the corners and I just saw the thoughts around the emotions.

What experience does this describe? What are you experiencing directly when you say "a separate self is felt"?

I was experiencing an emotion and the thoughts around it. When I say a separate self is felt, I mean that there is just a feeling of un-wholeness,of "me" against the world, that the world is doing this to "me". Essentially feeling like a victim but, you know what? There is no direct experience of any of that only thoughts to classify the feelings on contracting and tension in the body and the situations and people around me.

I mean just the feeling of a separate self. What feeling is that? Can you separate it into components like muscle tension or tingling?

No, not really...maybe an emptiness felt in the chest....but even then, that is a feeling not direct experience. so, no.

What does a separate self look like, sound like, feel like?

A separate self doesnt look like anything. It sounds like thoughts in my head but make no audible (in direct experience) sound. It feels like disconnection, distinction between what is felt and the "outside" world....

Always grateful,
Jessica

[Steve]

Hi, Jessica. Very well observed!

A separate self doesnt look like anything. It sounds like thoughts in my head but make no audible (in direct experience) sound. It feels like disconnection, distinction between what is felt and the "outside" world....

When I say a separate self is felt, I mean that there is just a feeling of un-wholeness,of "me" against the world, that the world is doing this to "me". Essentially feeling like a victim but, you know what? There is no direct experience of any of that only thoughts to classify the feelings on contracting and tension in the body and the situations and people around me.

Yes, exactly! You've deconstructed the sense of separation into a set of sensations and thought stories.

So what remains? Is that a real entity? Is there really a "you"?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Good evening, Steve
More looking today. I saw that "I" was hanging around in the thoughts, most of the time it was fine,
"I" would come up and drift away but it was more difficult when negative emotions would arise. Is this normal? Even though I know that "I" is a thought it sure is persistent!

So what remains?

The sticky residue of the thought of "I" is what remains. I observe when "I" enters in through thought and when the label is placed on emotions ex. "I" am feeling stressed. I know after looking that there is no "I" that emotes, that these emotions are simply rising and falling but the experience of the emotions can be so intense...even when I remember "this is just an emotion, "you" cant control it" it does not help.

Is that a real entity?

No, it is a label, character, story. There is no physical experience of a "self" only a story about it.

Is there really a "you"?

There is no "me" in reality. There is the story of "me", of Jessica. Her likes, dislikes, hobbies, hopes, dreams, ambitions, etc. all a story of thoughts. These things may be experienced in the moment but the story of it is not "me"

I really do understand that there is no "I", I have chopped it down, looked at it and found nothing that points to anything that is real in the physical direct experience of it, just old tapes of thought running, emotions rising and reacting to situations. Is it normal to move back and forth with this? Seeing the "I" and watching the thought pass or feeling the emotion and becoming "wrapped" up into it? Just curious.

thank you for your time, thank you for your love

Jessica